10 replies to this topic

[Reformed-Redan]

I've been searching for NZT like many other users on these forums. I think that after all my research, I might be able to find something that really comes close. We're already getting PRL-8-53 done and if the research paper is true, then I won't be able to not do with a 300% increase in working memory. I mean at that point, subjectively you will be able to feel the effects of the nootropic. The only two compounds that actually give me a subjectively perceptible effect are deprenyl and ALCAR. Most others are a slow and steady curve that you don't really feel working until you look back on how you worked while taking them. Anyone else worried that they might find something too good that will be hard to go without?

[Q did it!]

Sure we will find stuff we will psychologically be unable to go without and already have. I am already experiencing it with COLURACETAM. I plan to buy a large quantity from NSN when it becomes available for purchase and store part of it in my safety deposit box. Do not want to run out of this one

[everup]

I really appreciate this thread. The only one I can really feel is CDP choline. I always use that with the others, and more if I get a headache. My daily regimen of supplements includes vinpocetine, gingko, bacopa and huperzine. I only use specific compounds as needed so far, which is infrequent. I definitely am psychologically addicted to the herbals.

[vali]

I have two responses for you. First, Algernon's Law: Any simple major enhancement to human intelligence is a net evolutionary disadvantage. You should really read this http://www.gwern.net/Drug%20heuristics, as I think it answers your question as to whether NZT will ever be found, and if it is found, what sort of form it will take.

Second, yes, I am very much psychologically addicted to nootropics.

I can still remember the first time I took a full 5 gram dose of piracetam. It was like I had been living in a fog, days flying by, then suddenly I was real again. My skin was not a barrier between me and the world; I was my skin, I was in this moment, I was touch and feeling and manipulating realty with my every thought and action. I was happy, I was real. I was full of curiosity. I realized I had spent my entire life depressed, I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life feeling like this. Music was beautiful. Life had meaning. It was like rediscovering what it meant to be human. Did it make me smarter? I realized I no longer cared.

This was a year ago. It didn't last, of course, a fact that makes me both sad and grateful. Life must always be moving, chasing, and catching, and losing, and finding again that which gives it meaning. And that is why I keep coming back here, why I have tried Piracetam and Aniracetam and Coluracetam and Oxiracetam and Phenylpiracetam and Pramiracetam and Sunifram and Noopept and so many, many other drugs that I have lost count. Why illegal drugs terrify me, and why addicts have my deepest sympathies. Why I both envy and pity and completely sympathize with a certain forum user who won't be named.

Drugs that are too good to do without already exist. They are called heroin and meth, and it is their very perfection that makes them poison. To find perfect happyness is to be destroyed. But of course, nootropics are a very different class of drugs, with different goals. Is it possible to become smarter without paying some terrible price? If you read my link at the beginning of this post, you'll know that I think the answer is "maybe, but probably not". As coffee has shown, it is quite possible to use certain drugs on a daily basis and end up smarter and better. My guess is that we will find other drugs that are slightly more effective than coffee which can be used long term, and we will find drugs that are much better than coffee and can be safely used in short term (like amphetamines), and maybe we will find some drug that makes you brilliant and witty and driven and creative, like a mix of just the best parts of meth and LSD, but destroys you in the process.

But a drug like NZT? I do not think the human mind can endure that. Change the mind that much, and you WILL become a different person, either because supercharging the brain destroyed it, or because changing the brain so that it could be supercharged without damage required so many pervasive, deep level changes that you are now a different person. You may not mind; I'm guessing that transhumanism is popular around these parts. But either way, NZT is not for us.

Edited by vali, 03 May 2013 - 03:43 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

I have two responses for you. First, Algernon's Law: Any simple major enhancement to human intelligence is a net evolutionary disadvantage. You should really read this http://www.gwern.net/Drug%20heuristics, as I think it answers your question as to whether NZT will ever be found, and if it is found, what sort of form it will take.

Second, yes, I am very much psychologically addicted to nootropics.

I can still remember the first time I took a full 5 gram dose of piracetam. It was like I had been living in a fog, days flying by, then suddenly I was real again. My skin was not a barrier between me and the world; I was my skin, I was in this moment, I was touch and feeling and manipulating realty with my every thought and action. I was happy, I was real. I was full of curiosity. I realized I had spent my entire life depressed, I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life feeling like this. Music was beautiful. Life had meaning. It was like rediscovering what it meant to be human. Did it make me smarter? I realized I no longer cared.

This was a year ago. It didn't last, of course, a fact that makes me both sad and grateful. Life must always be moving, chasing, and catching, and losing, and finding again that which gives it meaning. And that is why I keep coming back here, why I have tried Piracetam and Aniracetam and Coluracetam and Oxiracetam and Phenylpiracetam and Pramiracetam and Sunifram and Noopept and so many, many other drugs that I have lost count. Why illegal drugs terrify me, and why addicts have my deepest sympathies. Why I both envy and pity and completely sympathize with a certain forum user who won't be named.

Drugs that are too good to do without already exist. They are called heroin and meth, and it is their very perfection that makes them poison. To find perfect happyness is to be destroyed. But of course, nootropics are a very different class of drugs, with different goals. Is it possible to become smarter without paying some terrible price? If you read my link at the beginning of this post, you'll know that I think the answer is "maybe, but probably not". As coffee has shown, it is quite possible to use certain drugs on a daily basis and end up smarter and better. My guess is that we will find other drugs that are slightly more effective than coffee which can be used long term, and we will find drugs that are much better than coffee and can be safely used in short term (like amphetamines), and maybe we will find some drug that makes you brilliant and witty and driven and creative, like a mix of just the best parts of meth and LSD, but destroys you in the process.

But a drug like NZT? I do not think the human mind can endure that. Change the mind that much, and you WILL become a different person, either because supercharging the brain destroyed it, or because changing the brain so that it could be supercharged without damage required so many pervasive, deep level changes that you are now a different person. You may not mind; I'm guessing that transhumanism is popular around these parts. But either way, NZT is not for us.

Are you Xenix by another name? I can't believe how Piracetam could make you feel that way.

[vali]

No, I'm not Xenix. That said, I read his story and felt many of the same things he felt. The arrogance, the sudden, effortless social interaction, the feeling that my thoughts were moving at a faster velocity. There was an intensity to life that made everything more real. So yes, manic. That said, I have always been a rather cautious person, and I did not make any mistakes that I regret. But neither did it solve my underlying problems, the way I was hoping it would.

As for why Piracetam could make me feel that way, please remember that everyones mind works differently. When I take piracetam after a tolerance break the effect is powerful. My head feels hotter, and I will take off my sweatshirt. I find myself smiling for no reason. I'll be walking along, and just laugh, because life is good and I am happy. I get a tingling at the front of my forehead, not unpleasent, just funny. I become mildly manic. I change from quiet, introverted and somewhat depressed into alert, excited, curious, and delighted by deep conversation and social interaction. I think that the more messed up you are, the more unhappy you are with your life, the better that being normal feels. Piracetam fixes... something. Perhaps when you take Piracetam, you go from 100% of your normal self to 102% of your normal self, while I go from 85% to 102%. I have often wondered what role the placebo effect plays on all this, but the heat I feel in my head, the way I blush without even trying, implies that whatever role placebo is playing, there is absolutely no question that this drug is having a profound effect on my body and mind.

Like I said though, the effect dies off after a couple days. I still get positive effects, but they are much smaller, and they disappear completely if I take it every day for an extended period of time. I've had strong responses to many of the other racetams as well.

Edited by vali, 03 May 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[reticularformation]

It seems that we haven't even begun to exploit some of the "loopholes" gwern mentions. For the majority of us, it didn't make evolutionary sense 10,000 years ago to sit around expending energy reserves just "thinking". If I understand correctly, TDCS depolarizes neuronal membranes, increasing cortical excitability... which, in effect, forces energy consumption. There doesn't seem to be much justification for having neurons fire any more than absolutely necessary if you're an adult farmer or hunter-gatherer of yore, so evolution would tone down our cortical excitability. If you could coax the brain into regulary utilizing >20% of the body's energy reserves (say as much as, I don't know, 50%), I don't see why it's inconceivable that such an intervention would dramatically improve adult cognition. It's safest to be cynical, but being cautiously optimistic might have the biggest rewards.

Edited by reticularformation, 09 August 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[empedocles]

I dont believe, it could be termed as addiction is the purest sense of the word, i think we all here are searching for something, a way to improve and be better a "drive" if you will, not addicted.

As for the effect of piracetam experienced by others here, yes it enhances colours and makes music nice ... but meh .. it does nothing for cognition at all for me , if anything it makes me less cognitively competent, with or without choline it gives me brain fog. I am always actively engaged in research and my search for a nootropic agent that works is based primarily on the need to stay at the top of my game in the face of getting getting older.

The search continues....

[brainslugged]

I kinda agree with empedocles. I don't know if it is fair to call it addiction.

Are we addicted to hygiene, technology, and running water? I guess in a way, but it is benign.

You can have a beneficial dependency on something.

[wanderlust]

After taking a handful of a high variety of noots every day for more than twelve months. Often changing between them to avoid a tolerance including
Piracetam, modafinil, nsi-189. Sodium valproate,prl-1-83, idra-21,  pregnenolone, Dihydromyricetin, dihexa, Alpha gpc, and many others alongside daily direct transcranial stimulation.
My goals were achieved, and so I took a few months off work to relax,

I decided to build motorbikes and do some touring and this I began continuing to take my daily noots, but after a week I noticed that I had cut down somewhat on the noots, motorbikes are simple things after all. A month later and I was no longer bothering with them as I was to busy courting a delightful woman. I found quitting caffeine to be harder; I still crave a decent cup of coffee every now and again.

as I have new goals to achieve I have started taking noots once more, my liver function and kidney function are entirely healthy,
 for a person with multiple severe learning disabilities who was not expected to be able to work or drive a car, I seem to be doing rather well mostly thanks to noots.
 
 

[AOLministrator]

Don't think I read 5 words more than the topic here. Who do you think I am?

 

Answer: Yes, active placebo is huge with nootropics. Nuffin more needs to be said. If you really believe it, so it becomes your reality.

 

Questions? Fuck off.