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New member, have rats and interested in doing C60@home

c60@home rats

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#1 dr.zapp

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:06 PM


I think this is the right place to post, but seems kind of dead in here, so I'm not sure if the C60@home project is still active? If it is, I have 2 rats I would be interested in starting this experiment with. They are neutered males, one is 1 year old and the other is 9 months. The 1 yr. old is a Fischer 344 from Harlan, the 9 month is a mixture of who knows what from a local breeder. I am a Cancer research scientist, studying gliomas and meningiomas. The Fischer rat is one that was cured during an experiment and I didn't need to harvest any more tissue, so I rescued him.
I have read threads about standardizing the C60-oo mix and having a single source, as well as doing a double blind trial- if so, who do I contact to get the treatment? If not, is there a single source I should use, and is there a set protocol for dosing someone can direct me to.

Thanks

Dave

#2 YOLF

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:29 AM

Hi Dave,

It's great to have you. Can you tell us more about the case of the fischer rat?

Most are keeping their C60 logs here:
http://www.longecity.../415-c60health/

You can contact AgeVivo for more info, I believe he's in charge of C60 at home.
http://www.longecity...r/6604-agevivo/
IIRC you'll need 5 posts to be able to send him a site mail message.

Don't forget to introduce yourself in this forum:
http://www.longecity...oduce-yourself/

Edited by cryonicsculture, 04 July 2013 - 02:31 AM.


#3 AgeVivo

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:57 PM

Dear dr.zapp,

great. 2 very different rats but raised by a person who is simultaneously in the biomedical research and DIY communities - and perhaps rat fan club as well?

I propose to send you in a few weeks 2 solutions of the same aspect -- please do not put pictures of them nor describe potential differences you may see: in case the placebo was not a perfect match, we wouldn't like pet owners to identify "group A" and "group B" across homes. It is going to take a few weeks because of the various things I and others nees to do (give the oil to the researcher, have him make the placebos, have a third person of trust help jom randomize solutions and keep th correspondance in a crypted file), get the numbered solutions and pipettes, and send them to you. Meanwhile, it would be nice that you put pictures (or videos; if you go to youtube you will see it is easy) and text indicating how they are, what the cage and its content look like, to have a"measure" before treatment and have it in its context. What we would suggest, to be somewhat close to Baati et al experiment while simplifying the procedure is to give them each 1 ml of solution every other week as follows: change the cage on Saturday evening (for exemple; it doesn't have to b precise at the day level of course) without putting food in the cage, then on Sunday morning (after a week without food; indeed we wonder if it is useful for the c60oo action, if any) to give them the solution one after the other. To do so, I suggest (other approaches are fine too) to have one rat at a time in the cage and to put a piece of bread containing 1 ml of solution ; to take a picture of the rat eating the bread (so that there is a semi-proof when posted here) and to wait for the piece of bread to be fully eaten before another rat is put inside instead.
Does this sound right to you?

A jurist helping LongeCity had also written a text that you should write, to protect LongeCity, I am going to look for it.
All the best
AgeVivo

Edited by AgeVivo, 06 July 2013 - 05:02 PM.


#4 dr.zapp

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:11 AM

My Fischer rat (Obie) was in a study we did using a combination of Temozolomide (current first line drug for glioma) and a new medicine developed here (Huntsman Cancer Institute) that blocks HIF-1 (hypoxia inducible factor 1) activity. Most of the rats receiving the HIF-1 antagonist survived significantly (2 months) longer than the controls, but Obie was the only one that was cured. Considering he may be famous if this drug ends up working as well in humans, I wanted to keep him alive as long as possible :-) We are doing a dosing study now and applying for a phase 1 trial.
I am in an internet rat group, http://www.ratforum.com/ that may have others interested in trying this.I'll have some pictures and video of my rats and cage setup after I post a few more times. Some people there have been interested in this study, and I'll pot there to see if any are interested in participating.
I'll split this up to get another post in :)

Edited by dr.zapp, 07 July 2013 - 05:12 AM.


#5 dr.zapp

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:24 AM

I will say I am rather reluctant to starve my rats for a week... they would probably never trust me again... is that a typo? I just reread the Baati paper and see no reference to this one week starvation in the survival experimental methods or discussion? I've written many IACUC protocols, and I think this kind of treatment would be very hard to justify to a review board, at least at my institution. I have tried giving my rats olive oil on bread, and they did not eat the entire piece... I know the protocol was a 1 ml oral gavage, but not many rat owners can or would be willing to do that. The volume of oil seems to be the issue for my rats, so what about splitting it up to 0.5 ml in the morning and 0.5 ml @ night, same day?
Also, what about the main diet blocks? I can't find what Baati et al used.. probably a Harlan global diet, but which one? From the paper info, the rats were "10 months old, weighing 465 g" Those are some fat rats! Ours only get that big when they are on a high protein diet (>16%).

#6 Logic

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

Hello and welcome Dr Zapp. :)

Yes that was a typo: AgeVivo is French and does make the occasional grammar etc error.
He cleans the cages on Saturday nights, but does not add food.
He then gives his mice their bread soaked with C60oo on Sunday morning when they are good and hungry and eat it all.
He takes one mouse out while the other is eating to avoid them fighting over the piece of bread.
There is some controversy about doing this as the forced fasting may upregulate autophagy and positively contribute to the lifespan increase seen in these 2 mice.

Congratulations on Obie the famous survivor! It sounds as if he has an exceptional immune system. :)
It would be great if he were still around to receive his accolades in 'person'.
Note that AgeVivo et-al are very keen on double blind, placebo controlled experiments, which means that Obie may not end up getting the real thing.
I feel that the average lifespan of rats etc is known and that the increase in lifespan from C60oo so large that blinded, placebo controlled studies are premature at this time and more interest will be generated by simpler, no placebo, experiments.

You may interested in Adan32's dog who is seemingly recovering from bowel cancer and is 7 weeks past what the vet gave him to live.
http://www.longecity...-cancer-in-dog/

The dog's stack is mainly based on the hypothesis that mitochondria can be 'turned on again' in cancerous cells, sending an apoptosis signal for said cell out.

The stack is also based on epigenetically changing DNA expression as best described here:
http://www.anti-agin...-same-strategy/

Enjoy! :)

#7 YOLF

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 03:52 PM

Dr. Zapp,

You had mentioned adopting Obie, are lab rats regularly made available to people for adoption? It'd be great if we were able to get them to our members as it would allow us to know the strain and how others of their strain might have fared (faired?).

Also, would you be interested in helping us with this study:
http://www.longecity...60-human-trial/

I'm not a professional like yourself, but I'd like to make the data as meaningful and useful as possible.

My cat also seems to have expressed a keen interest in Obie and would like to see a picture :)

Edited by cryonicsculture, 07 July 2013 - 04:01 PM.

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#8 AgeVivo

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:22 PM

Dear dr.zapp
sorry for the typo and thank you Logic for expressing things in details
in paper it may be not extremely clear but I have discussed with the authors and indeed they were removing food from cage overnight (not ovrrweek!) so that they easily accept the gavage on the morning. They told me they were given standard chow for aged adults, M20 by memory.
We have discussed with Mind, we would indeed prefer to keep the blind approach but in uour case with specific rats if you really want to be sure that Obbie gets c60, so that only the other rat will receive c60-or-placebo, let us know -- the risk is thatyou take care of Obbie ieven better because it is c60, so that the lifespan result is biaised (but perhaps not that much indeed) -- let us know

#9 dr.zapp

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:25 PM

Dr. Zapp,

You had mentioned adopting Obie, are lab rats regularly made available to people for adoption? It'd be great if we were able to get them to our members as it would allow us to know the strain and how others of their strain might have fared (faired?).

Also, would you be interested in helping us with this study:
http://www.longecity...60-human-trial/

I'm not a professional like yourself, but I'd like to make the data as meaningful and useful as possible.

My cat also seems to have expressed a keen interest in Obie and would like to see a picture :)

At least in the labs I know of, most animals are in no shape to adopt if they survive, being that most of them have some form of cancer, have had transgenic cells injected, or been infected with different modified viruses that are restricted... so adoption is something that rarely happens from our facility.
I would probably not be a good candidate for a human study, I broke my back 5 years ago and now have many medical issues, paraplegia among them, that would put me well outside the normal Gaussian distributed population for lifespan.

Dear dr.zapp
sorry for the typo and thank you Logic for expressing things in details
in paper it may be not extremely clear but I have discussed with the authors and indeed they were removing food from cage overnight (not ovrrweek!) so that they easily accept the gavage on the morning. They told me they were given standard chow for aged adults, M20 by memory.
We have discussed with Mind, we would indeed prefer to keep the blind approach but in uour case with specific rats if you really want to be sure that Obbie gets c60, so that only the other rat will receive c60-or-placebo, let us know -- the risk is thatyou take care of Obbie ieven better because it is c60, so that the lifespan result is biaised (but perhaps not that much indeed) -- let us know

I'm OK with having a double-blind study, I'm a scientist, and would not want to introduce any bias in my care by knowing what treatment group they are in. Overnight without food is ok, that is standard for experiments where drug is ingested voluntarily.
I'm not familiar with a diet named "m20", it is not from Harlan Teklad, the standard US supplier. Is there any way to find out where the diet came from and composition so we can replicate that as closely as possible? Obviously the base diet is going to have some effect on the overall results, and "standard diets" can have vastly different ingredients.

#10 YOLF

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:24 PM

Dr. Zapp,

You had mentioned adopting Obie, are lab rats regularly made available to people for adoption? It'd be great if we were able to get them to our members as it would allow us to know the strain and how others of their strain might have fared (faired?).

Also, would you be interested in helping us with this study:
http://www.longecity...60-human-trial/

I'm not a professional like yourself, but I'd like to make the data as meaningful and useful as possible.

My cat also seems to have expressed a keen interest in Obie and would like to see a picture :)

At least in the labs I know of, most animals are in no shape to adopt if they survive, being that most of them have some form of cancer, have had transgenic cells injected, or been infected with different modified viruses that are restricted... so adoption is something that rarely happens from our facility.
I would probably not be a good candidate for a human study, I broke my back 5 years ago and now have many medical issues, paraplegia among them, that would put me well outside the normal Gaussian distributed population for lifespan.


Oh I meant that I was looking for someone to help manage the trial, doublecheck our work, or help us design the study to make it as legit as possible.

#11 dr.zapp

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:24 PM

I can help some with that, but I design animal experiments, not human- so not my expertise, but I am involved in the planning and data analysis of our clinical trials, so I may be of benefit. I'll look through that thread and see what is going on.
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#12 YOLF

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:51 PM

Thanks!

#13 AgeVivo

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:58 PM

Hello, ok. I am preparing to send you 2 solutions numbered 1 and 2 in a few weeks, will look for the diet composition in the coming days as well the legal sentence. Could you post pictures and videos of your rats so that we can later compare the "before" and "during" treatment?

My 2 cents regarding the ongoing discussion, the rats in your lab seem to serve a lot (hopefully it leads to more life gained than lost), aren't there controlss that have not received such things and are becoming too old to serve as controls?

Cheers

Edited by AgeVivo, 13 July 2013 - 01:08 PM.


#14 AgeVivo

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

ok I found the text. Can you, if you agree, copy the following text and write "I agree", with the date?

"LongeCity.org makes an informal contribution to this project under its small grants scheme to defray some of the costs of shipping and equipment and provides a platform for project participants to communicate and share findings. LongeCity makes this contribution purely because it seeks to support 'citizen scientist' projects in general. LongeCity does not control the project, does not endorse the experimental setup of the project and makes no representations whatsoever regarding the project. All project participants take part in the project entirely at their own risk and liability"

Cheers

#15 dr.zapp

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:27 PM

"LongeCity.org makes an informal contribution to this project under its small grants scheme to defray some of the costs of shipping and equipment and provides a platform for project participants to communicate and share findings. LongeCity makes this contribution purely because it seeks to support 'citizen scientist' projects in general. LongeCity does not control the project, does not endorse the experimental setup of the project and makes no representations whatsoever regarding the project. All project participants take part in the project entirely at their own risk and liability"
I agree- 07-18-2013

I have some pictures I can post, just have to remember to do it tonight.
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#16 AgeVivo

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:18 AM

Regarding food they took the standard food given to adults at the place, the same I have myself used for experiments a long time ago (most labs in the region are advised by the same persons) : it is called M20 and comes from Special Diet Services Ltd., Witham, Essex, UK". it is standard chow. On the internet I think it is one of those: http://www.sdsdiets.com/products_and_data_sheets/rodent/ , likely the 2nd one (RM1 A (P)). If you really want the same food you may call the company and ask about M20.

#17 dr.zapp

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:52 PM

Sorry for taking so long to reply, it is grant and paper submitting season! Here are some pics of the rats and cage set-up Posted Image

Posted Image

about our control animals- they are used for tissue just like the treated group for our molecular analysis, so they don't survive. Obie was a unique case where we needed to do long-term follow-up (since he had cancer and it is in remission) instead of harvesting tissue. It's a lot cheaper to keep him at home for a couple of years.

#18 dr.zapp

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

Here is Obie- born 6/15/12, currently 388g
Posted Image

Here is Yoda, born 9/21/12, currently 426g
Posted Image

Both were Neutered on 2/2/13. Current diet is Harlan Teklad 2014 supplemented with whatever vegetables and fruit we have around for snacks.

Edited by dr.zapp, 08 August 2013 - 09:25 PM.

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#19 YOLF

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 04:02 AM

I like Yoda's coloring!

#20 AgeVivo

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:41 PM

Very nice!! I love the house. They look very happy with you.

In a few days (not sure exactly when yet) I will meet the researcher who prepares solutions (placebo), he will make solutions and I will send them to you 2 solutions A and B, you will have to decide what rat receives A and what rat receives B.
Have you sent me your address by PM, so that I can send you the solutions?

All the best

Edited by AgeVivo, 11 August 2013 - 10:41 PM.


#21 AgeVivo

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:26 PM

I am going to send you solutions it is a matter of a week or two. Cheers

#22 Autodidact

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:30 PM

Hey Gang -

This is my first real post, and hopefully this is relevant to the topic at hand. I request some leeway, as this post represents my first time engaging in or contributing to research related discussions for a long while now.

First and foremost ( I am assuming I should direct this at AgeVivo), has anyone ever discussed the solubility of c-60 in polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC)? If it proves/or has been shown in the past to be soluble, what effects could we hypothesize or what effects have we seen this c-60/PPC solution have in vivo?

If these things prove to show promise, I am very interested in organizing a collaborative experiment.

If we are successful up to this point, we can consider testing solutions of c-60/PPC with polyprenols/dolichols and/or synthetic peptides for potential synergistic effect.

I have to reorganize my scientific sources, as I just switched comps (due to a hd failure in the old one, where data recovery was not possible). I will post these sources as I uncover them. Please bear with me, and thanks for this awesome community!

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#23 AgeVivo

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 01:03 PM

Hello, randomisation done this week
there will be 2 numbered tubes: one with fullerenes and one without -- I won't know which one is what. It is in a crypted file that my researcher friend will soon put online. in principle the tubes should look the same, but just in case there would be some difference and one could guess what is what, DO NOT POST A PICTURE OF THEM ONLINE

I should very soon send you the samples -- Thank you for your patience. Cheers.

#24 dr.zapp

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 06:05 AM

ok, I will not post pics of the solutions.. or even take any. Thanks

#25 AgeVivo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:08 AM

hi dr zapp, the researcher will give me the solutions this coming week and I will send 2 of them to you next week-end. Thank you for your patience. Hope your raties are doing well.





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