8 replies to this topic

[noalias]

Can anyone explain the biological effects on the brain of excess chronic use of cannabinoids (smoking 24/7, avg 3.5-4g/day of 20% THC ganja, for years)?

While researching piracetam I came across the symptoms of acetylcholine deficiency and it seems like I may have it, which I theorized was caused by chronic THC. But I eat 2 eggs/day and drink a lot of milk. So plenty of choline should be in my diet

I also saw a study that found THC may inhibit acetylcholinesterase which I interpreted as leaving more acetylcholine in the brain, which seemingly contradicts my above theory. Can chronic THC somehow deaden of the whole cholinergic system making it work crappier even though the amounts of choline are fine? I saw other articles saying "chronic THC depletes neurotransmitters" but without going into detail on how/what/why etc.

The reason I am asking this is because 1mo ago I cut back on Ganja down to 1-1.5g day then in the last 6 days started taking 1g piracetam and 300mg alpha GPC twice a day, and I already notice subtle but definite and pervasive improvement in the same symptoms which I matched myself for with acetylcholine deficiency. Even the first day I felt it working somehow which I was suprised because I thought no effects would appear for 1-2 weeks. Then I researched and found piracetam can repair damage from overuse of cannabinoids, and thought maybe that's why it kicked in so fast.

Maybe ganja really can fry your brain, if used in high enough levels? Or is there likely another reason for the symptoms. Could my choline system have been impacted by heavily oversmoking too much Ganja for a long time? What is the biological process that chronic excess cannabinoids have on the brain in the long term?? Any good articles, links, etc on neurochemistry & cannabinoids will be appreciated

I find it funny that only after taking smart drugs did I research things and conclude that heavy ganja use might have been impacting my brain... for years I told myself it was 100% fine

Looking forward to hear everyone's thoughts on this. THANKS!!!!!

[rwac]

"A causal relationship couldn't be proven, but those who started smoking earlier or smoked more had the lowest dopamine levels."
http://www.popsci.co...-less-motivated

[Tom_]

You can't just make a generalization that you have low Ach. Anyway Cannabis doesn't have that much effect directly on Ach. It does increase dopamine within areas associated with pleasure, when this becomes regular the neurons down-regulate meaning dopamine becomes less effective. This is actually more likely to RAISE Ach levels although not significantly.

You may find sulbutramine, a racetam and citiocholine more useful.

[noalias]

You can't just make a generalization that you have low Ach. Anyway Cannabis doesn't have that much effect directly on Ach. It does increase dopamine within areas associated with pleasure, when this becomes regular the neurons down-regulate meaning dopamine becomes less effective. This is actually more likely to RAISE Ach levels although not significantly.

You may find sulbutramine, a racetam and citiocholine more useful.

Thanks, I'm not really looking to modify the stack at this point, since I just started the piracetam + alpha GPC one week ago, but this is good information to be aware of.

I'm more interested in what exactly happened to my brain that made the piracetam + alpha GPC feel so noticeable when everyone says it takes a few weeks to kick in.

Could I have just been low ACh genetically? My whole life I've craved eggs/milk every day even before starting smoking cannabis 20+ years ago

[noalias]

"A causal relationship couldn't be proven, but those who started smoking earlier or smoked more had the lowest dopamine levels."
http://www.popsci.co...-less-motivated

I've seen similar studies for years and always felt like this depletion of dopamine aspect didn't apply to me, since I get everything done that I need to get done. I definitely feel I am not at my full potential for what I could be doing though, so maybe it is just dopamine levels giving me low motivation to excel higher.

Still, this doesn't explain the quick start to effects of the piracetam + alpha GPC... can one's brain just be naturally be predisposed this way and in my case cannabinoids had nothing to do with it? I feel there must be some link with cannabis but maybe I'm wrong

Anyone know a good primer on neurotransmitters and brain chemistry that explains how the dopamine, serotonin, choline and other systems all tie in together?

THANKS!!!!

[kevinseven11]

You could have been predisposed and thc just made it worse. The fact that you did it 24/7 is some evidence that you were predisposed.
If you were on indica then your problem could be gaba.
If you were on sativa then your problem could be nmda receptors.

[noalias]

You could have been predisposed and thc just made it worse. The fact that you did it 24/7 is some evidence that you were predisposed.
If you were on indica then your problem could be gaba.
If you were on sativa then your problem could be nmda receptors.

Thanks dude. Can you offer any tutorials, PDFs etc, to come up to speed on these various types of receptors (GABA, NMDA, etc)? This is all very new stuff to me.

Many blessings.

[gamesguru]

http://knowmental.co...-acetylcholine/


http://ocw.mit.edu/a...s/drugchart.htm

THC is a comparatively potent neurovasodilator, meaning it enhances bloodflow to the brain. By widening arteries/veins and increasing blood flow, like ginkgo, ginger, or other vasodilators, it enhances the distribution of medicine to the brain. When I began using piracetam, I was abusing marijuana (1 oz per week), and I too noticed piracetam had a remarkably fast onset. This is all just vulgar speculation, worse than suspecting a craving for eggs and milk is rooted in acetylcholine deficiency. In experimenting with poorly researched or documented plants/chemicals, you are likely to glean more insight into its working on the body through anecdotes or your own trials and tribulations than through researching. Though, the speedy-effects of piracetam led me to abandon it after a couple years of fruitless experiments, I still use cannabis. I recommend you not consume more than a gram daily (about 150-250 mg of THC daily). If you want to avoid the cloudiness altogether, I suggest you buy a milligram scale ($30-$40 for a basic one) and do less than 60 mg plant material daily (10-15 mg THC daily), split maybe into two sessions, or I suggest vaporizing/smoking a CBD strain (be warned, cannabidiol isn't euphoric or psychedelic, so eager potheads usually see it as a waste of money). As someone who also used abusive amounts, you can probably appreciate how small of a dosage 60 mg of plant material is (and how cheap it is...less than 60¢). Cannabis can be very habit-forming, which antagonizes efforts to cut back on consumption. Personally, I could never hold myself to 60 mg plant material daily, and like you, I often wander as high as 1.5 g daily. I also tried CBD strains and esteemed their medicinal-value, but alas, CBD is a medicine, not a vice, whereas THC is more of a vice than a medicine. Long story short: I reverted to THC strains and am still vaping more than I'd like to be (I am vaping about 35 grams per month, whereas I'd like to vape less than 10 grams per month). Yes, it's clouded my cognition and drained some of my energy, and I'm sure I'd be better off quitting, but shoot, it's a safer vice than alcohol and I haven't got enough self-control.
THC tends to reduce your responsiveness to dopamine by flooding you with dopamine, which could account for its demotivating qualities. This also partially accounts for why cannabis causes fast rushing thoughts and euphoria. It's a bit of a stretch, and perhaps just more vulgar speculation, but in the same way, acetylcholinerase inhibition could boost extracellular acetylcholine levels during intoxication, leading to a rebound effect in the form of an extracellular shortage of acetylcholine during sobriety. THC is also a serotonin and an opioid agonist and NMDAR allosteric modulator. It can precipitate psychoses in schizophrenics and mood swings in depressives (more commonly observed during withdrawal than intoxication).

Edited by dasheenster, 17 July 2013 - 02:51 PM.