31 replies to this topic

[balance]

Dear longevity enthusiasts,

I have been helping out my father by supplying him with a cardiovascular supplement regimen for 8 years now. The four generations of men in his family before him have died of cardiovascular disease prior to reaching age 50. My father's dad died when he was 49, my father was 15 at the time. I love my parents very much, and whilst my mom is a total health and exercise enthusiast and still very young, we cannot say the same about my father. My father is now 60 years old, so that alone is a reason to celebrate.

The problem is and has been that he hates taking pills/powders and so has always limited me in the amount I could supply. When he lived in The Netherlands it was 15, now that he has moved to the island called Curacao it is 9 (he started at 5 so it has been a long fight to 9 hehe)... A horrible combo since getting a heart attack in Amsterdam gives you a higher chance of survival than in the terrible hospitals in Curacao.... (speaking from personal experience here also).

So with that psychological struggle I've been having a hard time finding a finalized 9 pill regimen that seems the best 9 pills he could get. I post it here in the hope that those with extensive experience can give useful comments:

2 omegaVia (90% concentrated omega 3, 1105mg per softgel)
1 life extension bio-curcumin 400mg
1 relentless improvement vitamin k2 mk-4 15mg
1 geronova na-rala 300mg
1 healthy origins coq10 ubiquinol 300mg
1 life extension pomegranate 500mg 40% punicalagins
1 swanson grapeseed extract 90% 500mg
1 biotivia trans resveratrol 98% 500mg

sublingual (managed to sneak one in since it's a sublingual and tastes good hehe):
1 DHEA 25mg sublingual


Debate:

I've been wanting to include Omega & Magnesium but since it requires many capsules it would mean less ingredients. I've been trying to get him to eat many almonds for some magnesium. With Omega I don't trust he eats sufficient fish and when I found the potency of OmegaVia I thought those 2 would be useful enough. Given that he lives in Curacao now I figured vitamin D wouldn't be necessary, also even though it's a super tiny softgel it would 'count' as a pill and replace something else. That said, here are some possible options:

2 doctor's best magnesium glycinate 100mg
1 life extension gamma E + tocotrienols
1 life extension mega green tea decaf
1 jarrow PQQ 20mg
1 jarrow astaxanthin 12mg
1 doctor's best benfotiamine 300mg
1 life extension P5P 100mg
1 source naturals methylcobalamin 5mg sublingual


Any input is appreciated. Keep in mind with the 9 pill limit that if you post any alternatives they be the most potent version of the respective supplement available on the planet.

[Luddist]

Have you seen LEF's Booster and Super Booster? I came across them the other day and they incorporate tocopherols/tocotrienols with some other ingredients for less pills to swallow. I can't say if these would be better than the others in your list.

After reading about supplements like curcumin, green tea extract, etc, I'm convinced I need to persuade my parents to take the most potent and proven ones at the very least. So far I've used the argument that taking just a few of these a day will prevent having to take a dozen pharmaceutical medications with potentially bad side effects.

[niner]

You could send him a bottle of c60 olive oil to use on his salads or vegetables. It wouldn't be a pill... Do you know his ApoE genotype? My guess would be that the family history is from being epsilon 4, but maybe he dodged it. If he does happen to be ApoE4, there are some good threads here for dealing with that. The ideal diet and medications are very different, depending on your ApoE genotype. Do you know anything about his lipid levels? Has he ever had a heart scan? A more sophisticated lipid analysis than the usual cholesterol and trigs? (I kind of doubt it, by the sound of things, but it's worth asking.)

[balance]

I used to put him on the Super booster with K2, it unfortunately doesn't have the tocotrienols, however since he takes aspirin from his doctor already I was uncomfortable giving him the Booster since it contains 120mg of Ginkgo. I myself have gotten significant bleeding from that dose even though supposedly it's safe...

I don't know his genotype. He's very stubborn and therefore only follows his conventional doctor's advice... I've tried a million times to get him to take other blood tests or get him to read articles but it's to no avail.

The C60 is an excellent suggestion. Another way of sneaking in a supplement without psychological resistance. I've tried C60 myself and hardly notice any taste.

He did do a scan and they found significant arterial calcification (big surprise...). The worrying part was that at the time he was already taking MK-7 90mcg every single day for at least a year and taking vitamin D3 at a dose of 5000iu. So my theory is (since we didn't have a prior scan unfortunately) that either it was even worse before that, the vit D3 was too high causing calcification, or the MK-7 was useless. Since that time I've read up a lot on K2 and found other people who did before and after scans and found that MK-7 was useless for them so I have since put him on 15mg of MK-4 as you can see. This is yet another reason I figured not to give him D3, hoping that the sun on the island does suffice.

[pamojja]

1 relentless improvement vitamin k2 mk-4 15mg

http://www.k-vitamin...oduct_-_Buy_Now

Check out
http://www.trackyour...s.aspx?ID=14679
http://www.heartlifetalk.com/forums/

Edited by pamojja, 28 July 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[balance]

1 relentless improvement vitamin k2 mk-4 15mg

http://www.k-vitamin...oduct_-_Buy_Now

AWESOME suggestion. I didn't know that one existed. Basically more MK-4 which is great, but a little bonus K1 and Astaxanthin. Could have contained more MK-7 but no worries. I'll order some for him right now.

The forum requires me to register to read the posts found there. Anything in particular you want me to find there?

[pamojja]

The forum requires me to register to read the posts found there. Anything in particular you want me to find there?

Well, my belly aches considering how varied the causes of CAD can be, and how much of a multi-thronged approach it could take to cover all those possible causes. That first post at TYP - which you can read without signing up - could give a first idea how much could be involved. But if someone like your father doesn't really want to look into it, and takes every effort in tracking causal relations AND takes every measure it takes, I fear it's a lost battle from the beginning.

Therefore, after letting you know of this vitamin K product - which one TYPer started to produce for his own and others need - no need to sign up. Your father simply isn't in a place where he would heed it's foremost life-style intervention of complete wheat-products abstention.

But since you have the same risks, TYP might be something for you. If you don't want to pay memberships fees, HLT was founded by TYP members, is more friendly and free to sign up.




Edit: Since InviteHealth discontinued it's 500 mcg vitamin K2-mk7 product not long ago, that's actually the highest available now!

Edited by pamojja, 28 July 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[balance]

Thanks for your reply.

I'll register and read up.

Are you saying he is in a position where he clearly needs to go wheat-free? I highly doubt he'll do it. Worse yet, he eats a lot of dairy on top of that.

I'm just wondering whether there's any supplement that would be more appropriate than the ones I've listed. I'll be replacing his K2 with the Koncentrated one obviously.

I personally take a huge list of supplements and eat a very radical diet, often times wheat free. You can see a list of supplements in solgarfingers thread under the Regimens section. I take 90% of those.

[rikelme]

You may want to consider chondroitine sulfate too. Here is an article (Bill Sardi... I know) in which he writes about Dr. Morrison who did extensive research and had success with preventing and even reversing atherosclerosis.
Here is an abstract from a different study which seems to agree with Dr. Morrison's findings:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....v/pubmed/395771
Comparative study of the effects of chondroitin sulfate isomers on atherosclerotic subjects.
Nakazawa K, Murata K.

Abstract
Effects of isomers of chondroitin sulfate on atherosclerosis were clinically compared, based on sulfate linkage and the amount of sulfate, by using chondroitin 4-sulfate, chondroitin 6-sulfate and chondroitin polysulfate. Fourty eight age-matched atherosclerotic subjects were selected from a home for the elderly in order to the treatment with the agents. The isomers of chondroitin sulfate were given a daily dose of 4.5 g perorally. During the experimental period for 64 months, mortality, serum cholesterol, thrombus-formation time and thrombus weight were examined. The result obtained was as follows: mortality in the groups treated with the isomers of chondroitin sulfate was less than the age-matched untreated control group. Serum cholesterol value in the group treated by the isomers of chondroitin sulfate, chondroitin polysulfate group in particular, fell lower than the pre-treatment value. Thrombus formation time prolonged 150% in the group treated with chondroitin polysulfate over the untreated control group and the resultant thrombus weight was reduced in the treated group. Thus, these data indicated that the isomers of chondroitin sulfate are clinically effective on the treatment of atherosclerosis in the order of chondroitin polysulfate, chondroitin 4-sulfate and/or chondroitin 6-sulfate.

My father is almost like yours - in his low 60s, a long term smoker, eats meat & potato diet, does not exercise and is VERY stubborn (he calls it pridefulness) . I'll be visiting my parents in the Fall and I'll try to make him to do the blood tests and to measure his arteries' plaque, to asses the risk he is at.

If you find anything that works for him, please share the info here. I'll do the same.

[balance]

Thanks for the suggestion, but chondroitin is a very large molecule so it would require several pills a day and so be too much at the cost of his 9 pill a day regimen.

[rikelme]

Thanks for the suggestion, but chondroitin is a very large molecule so it would require several pills a day and so be too much at the cost of his 9 pill a day regimen.

Indeed, the pills are quite big. I just wanted to share the info, in case someone finds it useful.

[zorba990]

Lyposomal Vitamin C with lysine and proline
http://www.amazon.co...eake heart cure

http://www.paulingtherapy.com/

http://www.practicin...utalicense.com/

After a week or two of taking lipospheric vitamin c packets the energy increase should be obvious.

[balance]

Taking Liposomal vit C was what landed me in the hospital emergency room cardiology section with pericarditis 3 times. Obviously this is something related to me specifically, but as I've inherited it, I don't give vit C to my father.

[zorba990]

Taking Liposomal vit C was what landed me in the hospital emergency room cardiology section with pericarditis 3 times. Obviously this is something related to me specifically, but as I've inherited it, I don't give vit C to my father.

Wow sorry to hear that! Did you use homemade or Livon labs or ? Doseage ? You think vitamin c caused the infection? I can't think of a mechanism that would cause this other than die off from Lyme or something similar so really curious to know more details if you would be so kind, thanks!

[balance]

Livon Labs, and I took only 1 a day as per their instructions. I know for a fact it was caused by vitamin C and subsequent tests showed every time I take vit C I get infections and colds, basically the opposite of what vit C does in people who aren't allergic to vitamin C.

[zorba990]

Livon Labs, and I took only 1 a day as per their instructions. I know for a fact it was caused by vitamin C and subsequent tests showed every time I take vit C I get infections and colds, basically the opposite of what vit C does in people who aren't allergic to vitamin C.

Interesting. Do you have wisdom teeth sockets or root canals? Some feel bacteria in these pockets can be related to allergies and other immune dysfunction
http://chronicfatigu...tion-longevity/

[Luddist]

I've learned Curcu-Gel Ultra is 500mg BCM-95 curcumin vs. LE's 400mg and is around the same price. It also comes in a 180 capsule bottle. Curcumin seems to be dose-dependent so more should be better.

Are you sure that two of those fish oils is better? Living on an island would he be eating fish once in a while?

[balance]

Thank you very much for that suggestion Luddist. That is exactly what I'm looking for; more potent versions of what I'm giving him.

I thought about that issue for a long time. This is the first time he's taking the fish oil as my argument was always that it's taking in too many crucial slots for other supplements that surely wouldn't be found in his diet. That said, some things aren't replacements, you can't replace vitamin D with something else. The Omega 3's have so many fantastic benefits, and the OmegaVia is the most potent one on the planet. If you have better suggestions for those 2 slots, then I'd love to hear it. Yes he does eat fish every now and then, but how can we be certain it's sufficient omega 3 wise?

[nubiensunset]

Oh wow, I was reading through the posts and didnt realize this is an active thread.

I am in similar shoes with my dad. I am also working on preventing the same thing for myself (22 now) http://www.longecity...lp/#entry603369

To be honest, I havent heard of alot of the things you mentioned in your fathers regimen. I will compile a list and do some research!


Does it matter how big the capsules can be?
If not, then the only thing I can think to modify would be the curcumin. You can purchase 95% curcumin turmeric powder on ebay and capsule it up yourself with black pepper. That is what I do, I managed to get ~660mg of 95% powder + black pepper into each 00 capsule.

I cannot vouch for this seller/product, but here is an example I found
http://www.ebay.com/...=item1e7dd8d3e9

The seller also lists, http://www.ebay.com/...=item20cdf1a265
which includes piperine, at a ratio of 25:1. I dont know if this is a good ratio or not.


If you were to buy the 95% curcumin turmeric powder and black pepper extract separately you could probably fit 1000mg of the curcumin 95% in a single 00 capsule and you would have control on the amount of piperine that is in there.


The ebay seller I bought mine from (botanicalzen), does not have the 95% curcumin powder in stock at the moment. I just emailed him to ask if he is getting more.

The only drawback I can see to buying the powder and making your own capsules is quality control and product legitimacy. If you go this route make sure you request COA and talk with the seller.

Also, I believe the curcumin extract might be best taken with a meal... correct? The fat could potentially aid the bio-availability.

[balance]

Thank you nubiensunset for your post, and thanks again to all of have responded!

It's a cool suggestion but I indeed would fear some quality control issues and I would never forgive myself if I somehow overdosed the piperine or such and gave him complications. That said, 1000mg per capsule would be fantastic of course.

Good luck with your regimen and that of your dad, feel free to leech ideas from here

[Luddist]

Thank you very much for that suggestion Luddist. That is exactly what I'm looking for; more potent versions of what I'm giving him.

I didn't mention it because I'm not positive if it's the same as BCM-95, but there's a slightly higher potency 600mg curcumin that seems to be marketed towards parents with autistic kids called Enhansa. Their marketing claims similar bioavailability enhancements to BCM-95, and doing a Google search like "BCM-95 vs Enhansa" brings up a few threads from autism forums mainly. The maker is not forthcoming with details about what it is on the other hand, and focusing their marketing on a desperate group of people is shady. The other thing is it's a ripoff: $130 for a 120 capsule bottle of Enhansa 600mg vs. $75 for a 180 capsule bottle of Curcu-Gel Ultra 500mg.

Edited by Luddist, 05 August 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[balance]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'll stick with the 500mg then. Does it matter where I get it from? A google search for Curcu-Gel Ultra gives me quite a few different ones. Anyone any experience on which one is most reputable? Also shipping to Holland is very important.

[Luddist]

I have zero experience with Curcu-Gel Ultra. I'd assume they'd all be ok. I plan on refilling my parents' LE curcumin bottles with these, now that the LE price has gone up. My price reference is from Amazon: http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B009G2RB9Q made by these guys: http://www.epic4heal...ul500mgena.html

[Luddist]

Somehow I saw CuraMed before but didn't see they make a 750mg softgel. It's not 750mg curcumin, but does include more turmeric oil. Available on Amazon, iHerb, etc. http://www.europharm...curamed-750-mg/

[bugme]

piet3r,

Without hesitation, I would add a good time release magnesium supplement in a non-laxative form, such as JigSaw Magnesium.

Besides I consider malate better than glycinate (your father would be also incorporating malic acid, which is beneficial), JigSaw formula incorporates some interesting cofactors (B6, B9) that cooperate with the proper absorption of magnesium.

Keep in mind that magnesium is as essential as K2 in maintaining calcium under control and place it where it belongs -bones and teeth- and not in arteries, tissues, etc.

In addition, magnesium is also essential for the proper metabolism of vitamin D.

By the way, to reduce the amount of total pills, I would change the Relentless Improvement by Koncentrated K, so he would be adding a good dose of astaxanthin (5 mg), all in the same pill.

In my opinion -regarding astaxanthin- I do not consider it necessary doses higher than 4-6 mg a day.

.

Edited by bugme, 24 August 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[bugme]

Also, I would change the Omega 3 supplement for one in which the proportion of DHA is higher than EPA (eg, Max DHA by Jarrow), and maybe -not indispensable- add some significant source of ALA, and thus cover the entire spectrum of the most relevant Omega 3 acids. Flaxseed oil may be a good choice.

Edited by bugme, 24 August 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[balance]

Hello bugme,

I have already incorporated the Koncentrated K supplement so he no longer takes Relentless.

Regarding the Omega 3 need for higher DHA please read this:

http://www.omegavia....and-your-brain/

http://www.omegavia....pa-omega-3-ldl/

http://www.omegavia....omega-3-part-1/

http://www.omegavia....-mood-benefits/

http://www.omegavia....via-difference/

The OmegaVia is way more concentrated than any other omega 3 softgel and therefore is the best option for my father IF I give him omega 3's.

If I give him Magnesium it will have to be at a significant cost of the other very important nutrients listed. Since food sources of Lipoic acid and CoQ10 are scarce, I am hesitant to remove those two. That's why I advised him to eat a lot of fish and nuts for the omega 3's and magnesium, since they aren't very efficient per capsule.

Pathetic that they only put 5mg of P5P B6 in the Jigsaw Magnesium per 4 (!) tablets... would have been better if it was somewhere around 25-75mg for the anti glycation benefits. I might order the Jigsaw for myself to see if it's an improvement over the Doctor's Best though. It certainly is more expensive though...

Also, I've been considering giving him 2 Life Extension Tocotrienols with sesame lignans instead of the OmegaVia. Any thoughts from anyone on this?

Edited by piet3r, 24 August 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[bugme]

While Jigsaw Magnesium is -as you say- rather expensive, in my case was the best magnesium supplement I've tried.

Another alternative, somewhat more economical, would be:
http://www.koshervit...sec_tabbed_desc

I'm a strong believer that magnesium is one "mandatory" supplement. Without sufficient magnesium, we may be wasting a lot of other supplements we take ...

[bugme]

Regarding Omega 3, here is a good explanation:

"The decision to select a supplement according to DHA and EPA content should be based on the benefit you're seeking. For example, the Linus Pauling Institute website reports that DHA is found in high concentrations in the retina and brain. So if you're seeking vision and neurological benefits, then you'd want a high DHA to EPA ratio. On the other hand, EPA plays the major role in reducing levels of triglycerides. Thus, if you desire normalizing lipid levels, then you'd want the reverse ratio. Discuss these questions with your doctor."

In my opinion, for the elder, I would support the use of Omega 3 for neurological health (prevent dementia, Alzheimer, bipolarity disorders, etc.); therefore, I would be in favor of a higher percentage of DHA.

Edited by bugme, 24 August 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[balance]

Remember this is a cardiovascular regimen. I'm not worried about his dementia risks momentarily.

I've ordered 3 bottles of the Jigsaw Magnesium, however their site has no option to select country and when paying via Paypal it worked however it stated that I live in the US, which is bs, since I'm located in Amsterdam. We'll see how this turns out...