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giving my rats c60

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#1 Rat Fan

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 02:37 AM


I have 8 rats, four of which I have started on c60 already. I ordered c60 from Vaughter Wellness, so I am not interested in having any supplied to me or anything like that. I cannnot do a study with controls because they are dearly loved pets of mine. (I've started the first four now because they are the older ones) I signed only because I had read through a thread done with three mice and everyone seemed to be so interested in the results. I am excited myself in the potential of extending their lives. If all goes well with them my husband and I may try it eventually.

I have lots of data on the first four such as DOB and they've been weighed frequently along with medical history. These four are from a hobby breeder.

My second four are newer/younger and I have approx ages. They are rescues.

All together I have two males, 6 females.

I've used three methods of giving them the oil, the best method is oil soaked bread. I chose a dose of 1.5ml per kg of rats weight, in contrast to the 1.7 in the study. (I may lower the dose based on their reaction).

I'm spacing out the first seven doses over 14 days (every other day) instead of seven. After that I will mostly follow the schedule from the study. I have only given three doses so far.

If anyone is interested I'll continue adding here...
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#2 niner

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 03:17 AM

Hi Rat Fan, welcome to Longecity! It's great that you are doing this. How old are the rats that have been given c60 so far?

#3 YOLF

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 03:07 PM

Great to have you!

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#4 hav

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 03:50 PM

Looking forward to your reports, Rat Fan. We have zero info concerning c60 effects on the reproductive system or offspring.

Howard

#5 Logic

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

Hi Rat Fan. Welcome to the forum and thx for joining.
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that many members are VERY interested in your experiment and will look forward to your posts with bated breath! :)

Can you please tell us how old your rats are as the scant evidence coming in points to this info being very important.
Also other info like their diet and routine along with pics of them and their habitat would be greatly appreciated.

Have you noticed any difference from the initial 3 doses?

Thx again for joining and posting.

#6 AgeVivo

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:23 PM

Hello, Rat Fan, it is wonderful to have you here!!

Are you planning to do some reporting similarly to what I have done:
http://www.longecity...lifespan-study/
(But with rats, starting at a younger age, and a bigger n!)

Cheers
AgeVivo

#7 YOLF

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 06:21 PM

@AV: Sge stated in her introduction that your experiment was her inspiration for do this!
http://www.longecity...topic/64937-hi/

#8 Rat Fan

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:21 PM

Yes, your log on your mice was really interesting AgeVivo, I read the whole thing.

I'll give you all the info and pictures, it just might take me a while...

Some important information regarding my rats. All eight of my rats have been neutered/spayed. The first four at a younger age than the second four. (I'll include all the dates later). This is important to know because it's been shown to spay females by the age of 6 months (some say 8) greatly reduces the chance of tumors later on in life. For males, it's also said to be beneficial not having those surges of hormones, not to mention they all get along better. All my rats live together in one large cage.

The second piece of information I think is important - one of the big differences between lab rats being born and raised and studied in a sterile environment and pet rats is that all pet rats (or rats outside a lab) carry mycoplasma. It's transferred at birth and there is no getting around it. Some rats are more susceptible to it than others. Breeders will try to breed rats that are more resistant and therefor healthier. All of the first four have been on meds for upper respiratory infections in the past, but they have been healthy for a while now. Rats are prone to URIs. Environment and diet plays a big role in health and happiness as well.

Let me introduce you to my babies -

Pip - Male Russian dove (grey)
DOB 4/26/12
neutered on June 26, 12
current weight is 530 g, his dose of c60 is .88cc

Jasper - Male Mink merle
DOB 4/26/12
neutered June 26, 12
current weight is 600g (he's fat) his dose is 1cc

Lucy- Female black mismarked masked with lightning blaze,
DOB 5/27/12
spayed on Oct 23, 12
current weight is 400g, dose is .66cc

Measha- Female Black berkshire
DOB 7/20/12
spayed 1/8/13
current weight 414g dose is .69cc


All four of them have had a dose on 7/29/13, 7/31/13, and 8/2/13. The first dose I gave to them at night before playtime and feeding time. I noticed that they seemed less energetic than normal. I was almost expecting this though as that is A LOT of fat to give them in one sitting. I then decided to split doses in half and give one in the am and one pm. This way has been better for them.

I will add more in a bit about their diet, cage, and add pictures of each of them as well soon.
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#9 AgeVivo

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:21 AM

Hello, great!
Can you also similarly list the 4 other (control) rats?
Do not hesitate to describe their appearent health and social behavior, for each of them.
Cheers

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#10 Rat Fan

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:02 AM

I would like to add pictures but not sure how, do I have to create an album in the gallery?

While I understand the scientific value of having control rats, I cannot say "this pet gets a shot at longer life, and this one I won't try anything"... they really are my babies. I've invested a ridiculous amount of money in spays and neuters, food, and the very best environment. If it helps, I have two foster rats that I won't treat, because they are not mine. They came to my home though with the same group of 4 (that I haven't listed yet), so they are all about the same age. Even if they get adopted at some point, it's likely I'll be able to keep tabs on them. I'm sorry to disappoint on the control issue but all my decisions have to be in their best interest first, I hope you can understand.

I'll list a lot more info asap... and hopefully figure out how to post pics. I do have tons of baby picts of the first four.

#11 Rat Fan

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:43 AM

The second set of four - I decided to wait a bit to start them on the c60 mostly to spread the cost out, they are younger (8 months or less)

All females
Age wise, the only thing I know for sure is that all of them were four months or less on April 11, 2013, which is when they came to me. They were babies born from Momma rats that were rescued from another closing rescue, after the babies were born that rescue closed and they came to our rescue. They were my fosters until I decided to adopt them. Genetics play a part in life span... if these rats came from "feeder breeders" or a pet store, where rats or bred with no concern for health and often in terrible conditions, there is no telling how good or bad their genetic history is. Two of my girls (Casey and Mila) walk with their back legs lower than all of my others. They are way too young for this, this is usually a sign of age and something called Hind End Degeneration. There is a demyelination of the nerves back there and it makes them weak. However, they have strong legs so I don't know exactly why they walk like this.

Minnie - female, black berkshire
she is the smallest and I personally believe that she was 2-3 months when I got her, I'd est. her DOB in Feb 2013
spayed on 6/25/13
current weight is 317 g
She's a very friendly girl, loves people, likes to be held and to play. Very energetic.

Willow - female American Blue
I think she was about 3 months on April 11,13 est DOB March 2013
spayed on 6/25/13
current weight 352 g
She is very friendly and loves playtime. She is a strong jumper and is very daring. Energetic.

Casey - female Russian Blue
prob 4 months on 4/11/13 est DOB Jan 2013
spayed on 7/23/13
current weight 392 g
She loves people, loves to hang out on your shoulder. Easy going. She sometimes gets picked by more active girls. She's more vocal than most rats. She is one of the low walkers. Her walk looks a little like a waddle in the back but she gets around just fine. You wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it.

Mila - female Black Berkshire
est DOB Jan 2013
spayed 7/23/13
current weight 392 g
She's the most skittish rat, but is coming out of her shell. You can tell by the nipples on her belly that she's had babies. (Rats can get pregnant as early as 5 weeks old). She's has a rougher coat than the standard coat so she probably has some rex in her. In pictures her coat may appear to be unhealthy compared to the others but it's just her coat type.

*Lucy, in the first four has a Velveteen coat, so she also will never appear shiny like a standard coat.

All eight live together in a Double Critter Nation. It's 4 ft tall, 3 ft wide, and 2 ft deep.There are two full levels and three or four half shelves at any given time. I constantly rearrange their cage to keep them from getting bored. All the ramps are taken out except for one fixed one to encourage more activity. Most of them are litter trained. They have a large wheel in the cage - Measha, Mila, and Minnie use it the most. The others hardly at all. They also have lots of toys, hammocks, tunnels, and things to climb. The floors are solid plastic pans that are covered with a towel (or other absorbent layer) and then fleece. Their little boxes have paper pellet cat littler in them. I take them out every day. They have a play area with lots of climbing toys and I usually get in there and sit and play with them. I try to keep them out for about an hour for exercise. They also individually get taken out and played with by me and other members of the family at random times.

There are two water bottles, one on each level. Twice a week they get a water bottle with vitamins in it which they drink up very quickly. I feed them once a day, late at night (10 or 11 pm). They get a mixture that is mostly Oxbow Regal Rat with a lot different types of grains. They get 130-140 g of this food (I'm still working out the perfect amount of food for them). I scatter and hide their all over the cage. On top of this I give them a bowl of veggies (this frequently includes blueberries as well). The list of various veggies is very long, but the staples are kale, dandelion greens, broccoli, tomato, and bell peppers.

As for the first four and their behavior and social description - All four are very relaxed with people, they are super sweet and love to be held and played with. Health wise - I am hyper-sensitive when it comes to their health. They were likely on antibiotics more than they should have been in their first year. I've gotten better and have learned from some people about what to worry about, and what is not a big deal. I think they are generally in good health but I worry all the time. I worry the most about Lucy as her mother had a very hard time taking care of the little early on. The whole litter had to be sent to another person for several weeks for round the clock help and monitoring. There were two runts who almost didn't make it, she was not one of them though.
The two boys, Jasper and Pip, will make on and off make a whistling sound when they breath. They saw the vet for it, he says that it is possible scar tissue in the upper resp system from prior infections. It could also be an allergy to something. Lucy occasionally makes a chirpy/grunting sound - same thing, possible scar tissue or congestion. I have noticed it less in the past three months though. Measha is probably the healthiest of those four, I've had very little problems with her.
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#12 AgeVivo

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:37 AM

Regarding where to post, I understand it is possible to post anywhere and the threads cn be moved to the correct forum. So here or the other as you prefer but better keep posting now always at the same place to reduce IT burden

regarding pictures when writing/posting you can click on "More reply options", it will then allow you to upload imagrs. Another possibility, for images that are somewhere on the internet without resstriction is to copy paste them (but if later they disapear from their current url they will aslo disapear here)

regarding rats, a complementary information would be to know if you have had rats before (i think i have read so in your posts; right now writing this post rapidly but I will soon read your posts above in great details) and if so how long your rats have lived so far?

Cheers

Edited by AgeVivo, 05 August 2013 - 05:18 AM.


#13 Rat Fan

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:01 PM

Pip (not sure how long ago)
young pip.JPG

Measha (this past winter)
Measha.jpg

Jasper (this past spring)
Jasper.jpg

Lucy (this past spring)
Lucy.jpg
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#14 Rat Fan

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:20 PM

baby Pip
photo.JPG

baby Jasper
babyjasper.JPG

Lucy 2-3 weeks
photo (1).JPG

baby Measha
babymeasha.jpg

5wk old Measha
5wkoldmeasha.jpg


I had one rat 20 years ago as a teenager. It's hard to remember but I think she lived about 2 1/2 years.
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#15 Rat Fan

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

Had a bit of a scare this past week. Lucy was acting very lethargic. I think I mentioned that she and her litter had a rough start in life. I spoke with someone who had adopted two of her siblings. Those sibs have died already due to the same symptoms Lucy was having. Her symptoms were basically tiring out very easily/quickly and sleeping way more than normal. Also, a different male sib adopted by a separate person died from pneumonia recently as well. It's not normal for a 14/15 month old rat to be so inactive. Anyway, she went to the vet Tues morning, stayed til Wed night (for observation) and she had several chest x-rays. They were unable to see anything, but I am not convinced there is nothing wrong. My other older rats have slowed down as well. My concern is that the amount of fat they are taking in is too much for them. I'm changing the way I'm dosing them. I'll be giving them .5mg/kg body weight once a week now and also starting the second 4 rats on the same schedule.

#16 AgeVivo

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:50 PM

I have read the posts. All very, very nice and all clearly different. You must have a lot of fun with them. I hope Lucy goes well -- several chest x-rays...

#17 Rat Fan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:23 PM

As of 8/13/13 Group 1 (Pip, Jasper, Lucy, Measha) have had 5 doses since 7/29/13. They are all looking good, coats are getting more shiny, which I would expect with olive oil anyway. They all seem more active lately, even Lucy over the past couple days.
Group 2 (Minnie, Willow, Casey, Mila) have had two doses as of 8/13/13. They are all doing well except that Casey sounds a bit congested so keeping an eye on it. This group is also continuing to be active.
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#18 Rat Fan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:37 PM

Here are pics of Group 2

Minnie

Minnie.jpg

Willow
Willow2.jpg

Casey
Casey.jpg

MilaMila2.jpg
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#19 AgeVivo

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:31 PM

Very cool. Don't hesitate to drop a line when you dose them or to say if special things are hapening. they are very cute. One day soon should try to move the thread of the "c60@home" forum. As you may have seen other persons are starting to treat their rats with c60 for one half, and not c60 for the other half (even if they do it blindly). Together, we make this experiment more valuable. Cheers

#20 Rat Fan

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:53 AM

I have no idea how to move the thread... or do you just mean continue on over there?
I'm still trying to figure out what the best dosing schedule is... please bear with me while I constantly change my mind. Still .5mg/kg weight, but now 2x per week. Tues and Sat. I've been soaking the oil for each rat into two Gerber Baby Puffs (these are little cheerio sized baby snacks, I chose them bc they are small and absorb very quickly and very well.) The rats gobble them up very quickly. Whatever oil might be left in their little cup they will lick up afterwards. They love it so no problem getting them to eat it. Dose 8 (group 1) and 5 (group 2) tomorrow!

#21 niner

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:21 AM

If we want to move this thread to the c60@home forum, I (or any of the other moderators) could do that, but I just want to make sure that everyone knows where to find the thread and no one gets confused by its disappearance.

The c60@home forum is located here, under the Community Science forum.

#22 AgeVivo

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 01:08 PM

Ok, great.

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#23 Rat Fan

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:11 AM

niner - Please feel free to move this thread where ever you feel is most appropriate. It doesn't matter to me personally if it stays or moves. If you think it should be moved, maybe just send me a message so I know where to find it. Or if there is a new comment I will still get a notification, correct?

All the rats are doing well. Willow has developed a small cyst under the skin where the incision from her spay was (I think this may have been the cause of it). It is/was the size of about a large pea. I noticed today that it started to drain externally. I was told that it would do this and then fill up again. Won't go away unless the whole sack is surgically removed. It's benign, until it's not.... it can become cancerous, so I've read. I plan to get it removed sooner than later.

Continuing to give doses as scheduled. group 1 - 11 doses so far group 2- 8 doses
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#24 niner

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:15 AM

Hi Rat Fan, I moved the thread to Longecity -> Action! -> CommunityScience -> C60@Home, as per AgeVivo's suggestion. There is a link in the old location (C60Health) that will take you to the thread, and anyone subscribed to the thread should continue to get notifications.

I hope all your rats are doing well!
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#25 AgeVivo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:09 AM

Hope all is well for the 4+4? CHeers

#26 Rat Fan

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:55 AM

Thank you niner!

The rats are all doing very well, everyone's coat looks nice and glossy :) Also, all the rats smell very strongly like maple syrup...Enough that when people walk in my house they ask if we've just had waffles. I'm not the only person though that's had this happen... sometimes people say that their rats smell like grape soda or tortilla chips. I do wonder what the cause of this is bc they don't always smell like this.


Today they had doses 13 and 10.
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#27 niner

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:25 AM

In humans, there's something called Maple Syrup Urine Disease, where the urine smells like maple syrup. I wonder if rats can generate the compound responsible for the smell (called sotolone or sotolon), perhaps triggered by diet? I'm glad to hear that they're doing well.

Edited by niner, 15 September 2013 - 01:26 AM.

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#28 Rat Fan

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:09 PM

I did come across that when I was looking for info, however, it's not their urine that smells like maple syrup, it's their bodies. Can't say I'm complaining, they smell so good :) I think your right about it being diet related, just not sure what it is in their diet.

Willow's cyst (?) opened up and drained externally. It healed up well and quickly. Hasn't come back yet, it will be interesting to see if and when it does... If my friend (who should know) is correct that it was a cyst and not an abscess, it should return.

Today was dose 14 and 11. Starting to think ahead as to how long I should do this twice/week. Rats are subject to kidney degeneration as they age, my older four are at the age to be aware of it. Wondering if c60 should be helping with keeping the kidneys young/healthy? If so, would it be better to continue to give it twice as week, as opposed to tapering down to once per week or once per month?

#29 AgeVivo

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:51 AM

Because we don't know why Baati et al rats lived so long (if they did; which we think), I wouldn't play around thinks too much: I would follow a pattern similar to Baati et al: gradually reducing the frequency of dosing. I know that with my mice I did quite different things (twice per month till death) and it was arguably not the best thing to do.

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#30 Turnbuckle

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

I would follow a pattern similar to Baati et al: gradually reducing the frequency of dosing.



This is what they did, and their rationale--

As biodistribution studies after daily gavages showed that C60 accumulates in livers and spleens, in order to avoid the negative effects of prolonged olive oil administration such as obesity, excessive steatosis, liver lipid degeneration, and insulin resistance, we treated the rats daily only during 7 days and weekly during the first two months, then every two weeks until one control rat died [at seven months].



So the reason for going to an every two weeks schedule was the potentially deleterious effects of too much olive oil. And the reason for ending the treatment was one of the control rats died. While intermittent treatment might indeed be better than daily dosing, there's no reason to think there's any particular advantage to stopping the treatment at 7 months, or that a declining treatment level holds any advantage.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 22 September 2013 - 02:19 PM.

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