14 replies to this topic

[Even_Smarter]

Hi there,

My current Nootropic stack is Noopept+Aniracetam+Pramiracetam+Alpha GPC. I love Racetams, for they cure my Narcolepsy better than Amphetamines and Caffeine. In fact this is the first time I wake up in the morning and do not feel hung over, but clear and awake in my mind. Also I dont need 12 hours of sleep.. My mind works slower but clearer and more precise and effective, so do my dreams. My thoughts dont jump from one to another that fast anymore.

Anyway, I got Amphetamines prescribed in form of an racemat (1:1 L/D-Amphetamine) 10mg capsules. What I love about Amphetamine is the feeling of happiness and enhanced male temperament, its like an happy hormone orgasm in my belly area. But concerning studying and working it actually makes me feel less focused. Could this be because mixed with Nootropics?
Also Amph. mixed with Racetams give me a feeling of high pressure in my ears. How is that caused?


Greets.

Edited by Even_Smarter, 16 August 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[machete234]

Racetams make it stronger and I suspect that has to do with blood flow to the brain.
Form what you write about temperament etc it seems to work because thats a usual positive side effect.

The pressure in the ears is I think high blood pressure and I get this even without amphetamines combined with racetams but allready if I dose racetams too high for me. (Normal dosages for other people)

I usually do feel more focused from amphetamins the only exception is, when I sort of burned myself out and it isnt working that great anymore.
Then its time for a break.

Edited by machete234, 16 August 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Synaesthesiac]

IMHO, if you are getting decent results without the AMPH, get rid of it. AMPH has diminishing returns, and in the long run (even in moderate doses), it is horrible for your brain. There have been a lot of posts here recently citing pretty damning evidence that amphetamines are actually counter-productive in terms of nootropic value if continued for an extended period of time.

[Even_Smarter]

Yes that is what I thought too. Noopept is way superior to classic stimulants.

[mrd1]

I think it is all too easy to jump on the lets kill big pharma and amphetamine don't work.

I feel like, while racetams are a wonderful class of drugs, in a nootropics board the opinion of them could hyperpolerize just as a group of doctors might hyperpolerize in their beliefs about amphetamines.

I do take amphetamines and racetams so take anything I say with a grain of salt since their is inherit unintentional bias and cognitive dissonance in anything I say of these substances.

These are the statements I can gather from the previous posts
1. Racetams make amphetamine stronger.
-IMO, I affirm this.
"PIR given alone caused no significant changes in mouse locomotor/exploratory behaviour, whereas the same dose combined with either MET or MDMA significantly enhanced their stimulatory effects. Different possible neurobiological mechanism underlying drug-drug interaction of PIR with MET or MDMA are discussed, as modulation of dopaminergic, glutamatergic or cholinergic brain systems. However, the interaction with membrane phospholipids seems as the most plausible mechanism explaining PIR action on activities of neurotransmitter systems. Despite that our behavioural experiment cannot serve for explanation of the pharmacological mechanisms of these functional interactions, it shows that PIR effects can increase behavioural stimulation of amphetamine drugs. Thus, the reported combining of PIR with MET or MDMA by human abusers is not perhaps a coincidental phenomenon and may be based on existing PIR potential to intensify acute psychostimulant effects of these drugs of abuse." [http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/22607774]
2. Amphetamines seem to increase male temperament subjectively according to one persons claim.
-IMO, I affirm.
2a. Increasing sex drive
-amphetamine and methylphenidate can increase sexual desire by increasing dopamine release. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC2695750/]
2b. Increasing extraversion
-"Decreased LI has been associated with dopaminergic agonist intoxication and schizophrenic conditions. We previously demonstrated reductions in LI among individuals characterized by higher levels of trait Openness and Extraversion. This study replicates our previous findings, " [http://www.sciencedi...91886902000041]
2c. Increasing confidence
-'The failure of either D or D + A to affect risk-taking seems to contradict
previous findings. One potential explanation is suggested by Hurst's findings
(in press) that amphetamine-induced optimism about performance outcomes
may depend upon ego involvement in the task being performed.' [http://www.amsciepub....1969.24.3.975]
2d. increasing goal oriented behavior
-These findings indicate that amphetamine sensitization leads to a rapid progression from goal-directed to habit-based responding but does not affect the performance of established goal-directed actions. [http://www.jneurosci.../14/3805.short]
3. Feelings of ear pressure could result from high blood pressure as a result of either a racetam or amphetamine or both.
-Probable reports on longecity, twitter, reddit, writestudio, seacoast, and friendfeed for Racetams
-Even more probable for adderall many anecdotal reports.
4. Amphetamine has diminishing returns.
Assuming the purpose is for cognitive enhancement and not a high I deny this statement.
-Development of sensitization to amphetamine may depend on the daily dosage of amphetamine. ["Individual differences in amphetamine sensitization: dose-dependent effects"]
-n humans, however, there is no systematic evidence of the development of behavioral sensitization to amphetamine after acute or chronic amphetamine treatment when the drug is used in the therapeutic dose range (i.e., is not abused). [ "Clinical psychopharmacology of AD/HD: implications for animal models"]
-The absence of observed sensitization development in humans (compared to that observed in rodents) may be explained by different amphetamine metabolism or different mechanisms of action of amphetamine in humans versus rats.[ "Update on amphetamine neurotoxicity and its relevance to the treatment of ADHD"]
-The use of the newer stimulant agents shows a safety profile of frequent, but usually mild side effects. They are generally safe in special populations. The risk of developing long-term substance abuse with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, without co-morbidities, is small and may decrease with proper treatment. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/19785509]
5. In the long run, Amphetamine is horrible for your brain.
At clinically relevant doses deny.
-In summary, this study demonstrated that at high doses, m-AMPH, increased stereotyped (sniffing) behavior in rats, but d-AMPH did not. However, this study shows that d-AMPH and m-AMPH seem to have similar effects on the brains energetic metabolism. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23022501] While this sounds really bad, I find three issues with how people apply this and similar findings 1. Rats seems to have a different metabolism of amphetamine 2. This is with HIGH doses that are INJECTED. How the brain changes to chronic dosing does not mean a fraction of that dose will cause the same changes. 3. Not all of the amphetamines are the same so methamphetamine findings may not represent accurately dexamphetamine. And, that while high doses of d-amphetamine may effect brains energetic metabolism this is in 1. rats who metabolize amphetamine differently 2. injected 3. at chronic dosing 4.this effect is not generalized to the entire brain and rather seemingly localized.

6. Strong evidence exsists that amphetamines are counter-productive in terms of nootropic value if continued for an extended period of time.
At therapeutic doses I must deny this statement
- Results suggest part of the beneficial effects of therapeutic doses of d-amphetamine for ADHD could be via increased hippocampal neurogenesis. [Chronic D-amphetamine administered from childhood to adulthood dose-dependently increases the survival of new neurons in the hippocampus of male C57BL/6J mice.]
-In children with ADHD, once-daily 10 mg-30 mg MAS XR was well tolerated and significant behavioral improvements were consistently maintained during 24 months of treatment. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/15908835]



7. Racetams are way superior to classic stimulants. With, one report emphasizing noopept.
I have to deny this statement also
Since the mechanism of amphetamines and racetams are independent of each other I feel that it is inappropriate to regard one as superior to another when they do distinctly different things in the brain.

to compare things like NDMA and AMPA modulation and increased cellular fluidity to Dopamine and Noreprine reuptake inhibition by binding as a ligand does both of these substances a injustice and greater confusion over stacking in the hopes of "synergy". They are independent of each other the only reason we can compare them is because the brain is very complex and has many systems that result in the "same" subjective affect. racetams are like amphetamines because they both may have the ability to improve cognition. However, racetams are not equal to amphetamines because of totally distinct mechanisms of actions. Cognitive enhancement is our dependant variable. However, racetams and amphetamines are nearly independent of each other and distinct independent variables. So, rather than which is better it should be these are different tools that do similar things and id rather have a tool box filled with all kinds of skrewdrivers rather than just a philip's head. - If you aren't trying to do much maybe you might be able to get by on just philip's head.

[Even_Smarter]

Thanks a lot for this well elaborated post. Furthermore I have to add that with racetams you are trying to maintain a constant level in your body. Also racetams seem to not have any toxicity on cells. You have to be "less careful" when taking them. At least I hope this statement is true, but that what toxicity reports show. Although of course piracetam can be bought in a pharmacy with package insert, while noopept and pramiracetam e.g. have no such thing. But considering all the positive reports on the internet over the years, I suggest that is the case too.

I definitely suffer from narcolepsy. There are only 3 legal medications that work against that depressing, life suppressing disability. Modafinil, Amphetamine, Methylphenidate. I find that mph makes me way more awake than amph and what I researched its mechanism of action is less "aggressive" on the nervous system. What you said in 2c is completely true though. Insecurity or anxiety derive from bad anticipations about future outcomes. In this state you are not thinking in the here and now, you are concerned about future results, which are completely made up. One way to cure is, to force the mind to stop thinking about the future (benzos eg), or to have positive believes of outcomes, reactons of the people, which amphetamines induce. Best is both.

[Synaesthesiac]

I pointed out studies that explicitly detail the long-term toxicity of THERAPEUTIC DOSES, which you have ignored, so I will not repost them now. I don't have the time if you don't want to listen.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Any reason you aren't on pure d-amph (dexedrine)? It is far more tolerable than racemic amphetamine IMO.

Also you should really be stacking neuroprotective agents if you are on amphetamines.

[mrd1]

Sorry, I am confused I merely see a claim that these studies exist and I apoligize I am biased towards one side of the arguement however, that is because I am trying to provide evidence to support a possible view opposite of that which is currently held and I could try to argue with myself but that would get very hard to do and time consuming.

[mrd1]

Perhaps you are referring to that one study in young rats and I provided a lengthy response to why that should not apply to a human taking oral doses below the maximum that is older than preadolescence.

[Even_Smarter]

Alright, pure D-amph is not available in Austria unfortunately. You can only get Amphetaminesulfate in capsules at the pharmacy.
Toxic or not, I suffer from extreme day drowsiness, especially after getting up in the morning. I found that Ritalin makes me more awake and also Doctor say it is less "agressive" (im not a specialist so i use common words) on the nervous system. I hate beeing tired all day. Also I read, dont know where anymore, that there is a study that indicates that Ritalin is actually able to actively create new neuronal connections. Would be amazing.
3AlarmLampscooter what neuroprotectives are you talking about? I also found the MOA-I Moclobemide pretty usefull, not least due to mood swings.

Edit: Does anybody know how alcohol consumption affects all those medications? I tend to overdo that a little bit, when I am out with friends.

Edited by Even_Smarter, 25 August 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[MrRogersBestNeighbor]

I pointed out studies that explicitly detail the long-term toxicity of THERAPEUTIC DOSES, which you have ignored, so I will not repost them now. I don't have the time if you don't want to listen.

I'd like to see those studies. I've mentioned in another thread that my use of amphetamines over the last 4 years certainly doesn't reflect that. While my experience is purely anecdotal, I feel amphetamines have caused PERMANENT enhancement of cognition. I have more mental energy, better memory recall, ability to break things down into details while holding the whole picture in mind and many other DRASTIC increases in cognition, with or without Adderall/Dexedrine after many years of taking it 3-4 days a week. I don't take doses that interfere with sleep, decrease appetite and produce a high.

Obviously I have my own bias on this, but I'm very much interested in taking a look at the studies reporting long-term toxicity with an objective mind.
Perhaps I have experienced some form of toxicity, but it isn't at all reflected in the slightest in my behavior. Quite the opposite.

[mrd1]

I believe that the studies commonly quoted reporting long-term toxicity when converted to human doses via the HEB equation, and considering the populations age, not to mention things like the localization of the "toxicity" which we already know, and the difference between rats metabolism of amphetamine vs humans and iv vs ingestion it is largely misapplication of information. The premises people who believe it to be toxic in this case are correct however the conclusions they draw are false. Extreme example E.x. The sun is yellow, I am typing therefore, 2+2=5


"-Development of sensitization to amphetamine may depend on the daily dosage of amphetamine. ["Individual differences in amphetamine sensitization: dose-dependent effects"]
-n humans, however, there is no systematic evidence of the development of behavioral sensitization to amphetamine after acute or chronic amphetamine treatment when the drug is used in the therapeutic dose range (i.e., is not abused). [ "Clinical psychopharmacology of AD/HD: implications for animal models"]
-The absence of observed sensitization development in humans (compared to that observed in rodents) may be explained by different amphetamine metabolism or different mechanisms of action of amphetamine in humans versus rats.[ "Update on amphetamine neurotoxicity and its relevance to the treatment of ADHD"]
-The use of the newer stimulant agents shows a safety profile of frequent, but usually mild side effects. They are generally safe in special populations. The risk of developing long-term substance abuse with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, without co-morbidities, is small and may decrease with proper treatment. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/19785509]
5. In the long run, Amphetamine is horrible for your brain.
At clinically relevant doses deny.
-In summary, this study demonstrated that at high doses, m-AMPH, increased stereotyped (sniffing) behavior in rats, but d-AMPH did not. However, this study shows that d-AMPH and m-AMPH seem to have similar effects on the brains energetic metabolism. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23022501] While this sounds really bad, I find three issues with how people apply this and similar findings 1. Rats seems to have a different metabolism of amphetamine 2. This is with HIGH doses that are INJECTED. How the brain changes to chronic dosing does not mean a fraction of that dose will cause the same changes. 3. Not all of the amphetamines are the same so methamphetamine findings may not represent accurately dexamphetamine. And, that while high doses of d-amphetamine may effect brains energetic metabolism this is in 1. rats who metabolize amphetamine differently 2. injected 3. at chronic dosing 4.this effect is not generalized to the entire brain and rather seemingly localized.

6. Strong evidence exsists that amphetamines are counter-productive in terms of nootropic value if continued for an extended period of time.
At therapeutic doses I must deny this statement
- Results suggest part of the beneficial effects of therapeutic doses of d-amphetamine for ADHD could be via increased hippocampal neurogenesis. [Chronic D-amphetamine administered from childhood to adulthood dose-dependently increases the survival of new neurons in the hippocampus of male C57BL/6J mice.]
-In children with ADHD, once-daily 10 mg-30 mg MAS XR was well tolerated and significant behavioral improvements were consistently maintained during 24 months of treatment. [http://www.ncbi.nlm....bmed/15908835]"

[Even_Smarter]

Ladies and Gentlemen, to avoid that topic to drift of in a toxicity debate, which doesnt matter because some like me have to take amph, I want to restate what I wrote and ask for advice whether to get Amph racemic or Ritalin. Im seeing my doctor today, so what do you say? Thanks

"Toxic or not, I suffer from extreme day drowsiness, especially after getting up in the morning. I found that Ritalin makes me more awake and also Doctor say it is less "agressive" (im not a specialist so i use common words) on the nervous system. I hate beeing tired all day. Also I read, dont know where anymore, that there is a study that indicates that Ritalin is actually able to actively create new neuronal connections. Would be amazing.
3AlarmLampscooter what neuroprotectives are you talking about?

Edit: Does anybody know how alcohol consumption affects all those medications? I tend to overdo that a little bit, when I am out with friends. "

[mrd1]

Take what you can get Ritalin vs Adderall is very nit picky !