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Too much or too little NE?

norepinephrine adrenaline stimulant anxiety calm caffine beta blocker

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#1 xeon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:32 PM


I have a problem where I can't figure out if I have too much NE or too little. I feel physically anxious a lot and easily stressed (sweaty hands/feet, shakiness, tight muscles, fast heart rate, stuttering when I speak, etc.) but at the same time I feel mentally dull, inarticulate, un-alert, unfocused, and unmotivated. Physical over-stimulation with very little mental stimulation. I have a very hard time holding conversations with people due to my bad attention span because I'm too distracted by my anxiety and

Oddly enough... when I take a stimulant such as caffeine or ginseng, my heart rate slows to normal, I can speak clearly, my hands stop shaking, and I feel totally calm and alert and fine.

However, I have abstained from any stimulants for the past year and deal with this problem almost daily. Any mental stimulation from watching shows like Breaking Bad makes me physically anxious so I avoid stimulation at almost all costs. Chemical stimulation calms me though. So weird.

Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions/similar experiences? I would love to know if something like an NRI could help with this since stimulants cause me to become calm physically and mentally, maybe I don't have enough NE?

Thanks everyone

#2 nupi

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:37 PM

The reaction to stimulants sounds like text book ADD to me. Could just as well be lack of DA resulting in that.
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#3 xeon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

The reaction to stimulants sounds like text book ADD to me. Could just as well be lack of DA resulting in that.


But I don't want to become dependent/tolerant to stimulants... I've totally stopped caffeine intake altogether... what's the safest/healthiest route to treat this if you are correct?

#4 xeon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:08 PM

Also, I've seen a psych that I no longer visit anymore.. he said I clearly don't have ADD because I had a good attention span as a child and made excellent grades all the way through high school. He said I have depression, but SSRI's and SNRI's make me feel absolutely horrible and I simply cannot tolerate them. But I have all of the symptoms I described above. =/

#5 gerass

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:09 PM

Yeah it sounds like add

#6 xeon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:17 PM

Could supplementing Tyrosine, or Phenylalanine help this? I've tried them before but they seemed to simply cause more anxiety with none of the same relief that even mild stimulants provide.

#7 nowayout

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:41 PM

It is unlikely something like this can be reduced to NE. The best experts' understanding of the brain is not at a level where they can attribute something like this to neurotransmitters, never mind a few strangers on the internet.

Edited by nowayout, 03 September 2013 - 08:41 PM.

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#8 xeon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:02 PM

nowayout, I understand that, but clearly I've narrowed it down to stimulants causing immediate relief of all of my symptoms. Maybe you didn't fully absorb my original post.

I don't like posts like that, saying, "We don't understand how the brain works enough to narrow it down to a particular neurotransmitter." Obviously it has something to do with NE/DA and it's ridiculous to try and end a thread when there are more helpful people on this forum than there are helpful docs/psychs in my area. You're also basically implying that everything that every psychiatrist knows helps his patients is completely unfounded and can't be used to help people. Wow.

Anyway, I'm going to disregard posts like this. I still would appreciate more information on this topic instead of it becoming a debate about how much we really know about neurotransmitters and brain function.

Another piece of information is that I cannot seem to tolerate anything SE enhancing: SSRI's, SNRI's, 5-HTP, L-Tryptophan, etc. They all make all of my symptoms worsen the more I take. Well, I can tolerate mild doses of Bacopa when I want to sleep more deeply or faster.

#9 nowayout

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:57 PM

Xeon, if everything every psychiatrist knows helps his patients is so helpful to you, why are you asking for help on online forums?

The monoamine hypothesis for explaining psychiatric disorders (assuming that is even what you have) has been spectacularly unsuccessful, and so has the diagnostic paradigm underlying Western psychiatry for the past half century. What most psychiatrists worth their money do today is (1) forget about diagnostic categories except to satisfy insurance forms, and (2) find therapies or drugs (or a combination) that work for their patients basically through trial and error.

It is a sad state of affairs, but it is unfortunately what it is. What this means for you is that if ADHD drugs work for you, then they work for you. Nothing much more can be inferred from that. But if an explanatory fairy tale or a just-so story is a requirement to make you happy, by all means continue your search for it.

Edited by nowayout, 03 September 2013 - 09:59 PM.

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#10 xeon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:20 PM

Xeon, if everything every psychiatrist knows helps his patients is so helpful to you, why are you asking for help on online forums?

The monoamine hypothesis for explaining psychiatric disorders (assuming that is even what you have) has been spectacularly unsuccessful, and so has the diagnostic paradigm underlying Western psychiatry for the past half century. What most psychiatrists worth their money do today is (1) forget about diagnostic categories except to satisfy insurance forms, and (2) find therapies or drugs (or a combination) that work for their patients basically through trial and error.

It is a sad state of affairs, but it is unfortunately what it is. What this means for you is that if ADHD drugs work for you, then they work for you. Nothing much more can be inferred from that. But if an explanatory fairy tale or a just-so story is a requirement to make you happy, by all means continue your search for it.



Asking for ideas pertaining to whether or not too much or too little NE is directly or indirectly the culprit, and how it could be, and what other ways I could safely experimentally affect it (through trail and error as you put it), is a completely valid topic.

I really dislike your condescending tone. I'm trying to find legitimate and useful information and not search for "explanatory fairy tales". Also, I never said everything every psychiatrist knows is so helpful to me in particular. I stated they were helpful to lots of patients that they treat. Not only are you being condescending, you're twisting my words. Take your BS somewhere else if you aren't going to contribute to the discussion with something other than bickering. I also noticed your argumentative tone on other threads as well. I'm here to share information. You're here to satisfy your need to make other people look stupid compared to you. Just stop posting.

#11 nowayout

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

I may have been a little condescending in my second post, but just read back in the thread and see who was condescending to whom first in response to a pretty innocent and innocuous post on my part. Funny how blind we are to our own defects. :-D

#12 xeon

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 06:28 PM

I just want to learn more about the problem I'm dealing with.

#13 brainslugged

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:12 AM

Firstly, I don't think it is so much of a question of "how much" NE, but more of where it is. You could have overactive NE in the striatum, but low activity elsewhere.

We share a LOT in common. I am the same way, the dullness, especially the conversational problems. My BP decreases on stimulants, and my heart rate stays about the same (depending on the stimulant)

How do you respond to ephedrine or the combination of pseudoephedrine and piracetam? That would be a good place to start. They are paradoxically both calming and stimulating to me.

For me, amphetamine does not fix all of this. It helps somewhat with conversation (helps generate words, but I still have the 'static'/dullness feeling in conversations). It really helps with concentration and overall dullness, and I feel like a more "cured" version of myself, very natural.

Methylphenidate fixes most of it but produces a slightly robotic feeling. I don't dislike the feeling, but I think it could possibly be damaging to your social life or personality (for me, it makes me SUPER calm and EXTREMELY nice and lovey-dovey to everyone, but very, very boring. Maybe you know people who act like that normally.) It helps more with the static/dullness. It is very easy to have a conversation on it... but that conversation could end up being me saying "yeah" a few times and smiling at the person for ten minutes, and I would feel like it was a great conversation (and I would be clear-headed and focused the entire time) while it actually probably isn't a very good conversation to them.

Ritalin also makes a big distinction between my "social anxiety" and the social problems that we share. The social anxiety (speaking in front of a crowd, confronting authority) is a bit higher with ritalin (I kinda had a panic attack during a presentation while on ritalin) while the other social symptoms are virtually eliminated. Amphetamine does not seem to increase anxiety as much.

What works well for me so far, and keep in mind, I am not recommending this due to potential for bad tolerance, is amphetamine (vyvanse) combined with chronic 1g phenibut (and some other noots/racetams, see my profile). I am still waiting to see if tolerance will build to the social effects of phenibut (reduction of the static). If it does, I plan to taper down and forget about it. But with this combination, presently, I am probably at the height of my functioning. I would say I am completely rid of mental "disorders" I have, and striving only toward nootropic improvement and other aspects of my life I wish to improve upon. But otherwise, I feel, as a rare occasion, completely free from cognition disorders. If you want, I can let you know how it goes, if I build tolerance. It is too early to tell right now, but I don't appear to be building any tolerance. Still, don't take this as me promoting phenibut as a wonder-drug. The addiction to it can be horrifying, and there is a high chance that I will develop tolerance, but I am going to wait it out and see.

You also my want to try stablon. It has a very nice pro-social and pro-concentration effect for me, but I have never used it for more than a day or two in a row, so I can't say if that is just the initial stimulant effect or the actual long-term effect.

Another thing, if you are chronically stressed by life situations (like not being able to concentrate on anything and thus having to work 10x harder and work CONSTANTLY/constantly have it on your mind to get anything done), then it seems to make everything else much worse, the anxiety, physical sensitivity, etc.

Reducing that stress will improve life by a lot IME.

he said I clearly don't have ADD because I had a good attention span as a child


Define attention span as a child. Many children can go through school and everything very easily. School is easy, and you could easily look like you are paying attention when you really aren't. Childeren with ADHD can also often concentrate easily on things they are interested in or on things that don't require much mental effort (especially important if you were gifted). The problem with attention span appears when attention must be sustained on either a repetitive or mentally effortful task.

For example, if you had mild interest in math as a child, you probably could concentrate fine on it when learning new concepts. They were easy, and the effort to sustain the attention was very, very low in comparison to the reward gained from understanding.

However, you may have had a difficult time with sustaining attention on things like memorizing multiplication tables or doing homework.

and made excellent grades all the way through high school


Nope. "Giftedness" does not counter an ADHD diagnosis. Above average intelligence, memory, or even just very strict parents (anxiety can motivate GREATLY) can cause great grades all the way through highschool. Especially if you are inattentive type where there is no oppositional defiance (in many cases even more compliant with authority than normal).

I would suggest finding a psychiatrist who sees a lot of ADHD patients of all varieties. They will be able to assess it much better.


As a final disclaimer, I may be a bit too enthusiastic about the combination I am currently on, so keep that in mind.

#14 xeon

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:36 AM

Wow. The way you describe the way you feel and such really is almost identical to mine.

How do you respond to ephedrine or the combination of pseudoephedrine and piracetam?

I don't know. Haven't tried it. Do you think that I should? Is that safe?

For me, amphetamine does not fix all of this. It helps somewhat with conversation (helps generate words, but I still have the 'static'/dullness feeling in conversations). It really helps with concentration and overall dullness, and I feel like a more "cured" version of myself, very natural.


This is exactly how I would describe how I respond to amphetamine. Word for word. I just really hate the idea of taking powerful stimulants like that.

I haven't tried Ritalin or Concerta and I don't plan on it. If I do anything, I would prefer a more mild approach. Anything with a big risk of tolerance/addiction/etc. I would rather stay away from. Even though those things are the closest thing to making me feel "normal". Regardless, I would actually love to hear about your results with your current combo of Phenibut/Vyvanse.

What you said about having ADD as a child... I was mostly driven to making good grades by anxiety and I seemed to be much more easily stimulated then. I was in a "gifted" class of students who were above average. When I reached high school everything changed. I started going through periods of depression/apathy. Even though I maintained high grades, I struggled to do so because my attention span got worse when I stopped having as much anxiety about my grades. Yes, doing homework was a huge problem. I never learned math very well for this reason and I still struggle with it in college.

I drank loads of caffeine all my life up until now. Since I stopped a year ago due to a severe anxious episode, everything has been very hard to focus on and I'm having all of these problems but they're much worse. I find it so difficult to become stimulated and one thing that keeps me away from even mild stimulants is now I have a HUGE crash when they wear off. It's mainly physical things like sweating, fast heart rate, shakiness, etc... all of those things are intolerable to me because they are so bad when I come off any stimulant. If I could figure out what causes that, I would stick to mild ones like ginseng, etc.

What's very interesting to me is how some people take NRI's like Strattera and after a few days it sedates rather than stimulates. I wonder if I have dysregulated my body's adrenergic receptors throughout my body and if I were to take an NRI if it would correct it through tolerance, thus making stimulants much more tolerable for me.

EDIT: Is Stablon a safe drug? Based on it's wiki page it seems like a very good option.

Edited by xeon, 05 September 2013 - 07:43 AM.


#15 brainslugged

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:20 PM

What you said about having ADD as a child... I was mostly driven to making good grades by anxiety and I seemed to be much more easily stimulated then. I was in a "gifted" class of students who were above average. When I reached high school everything changed. I started going through periods of depression/apathy. Even though I maintained high grades, I struggled to do so because my attention span got worse when I stopped having as much anxiety about my grades. Yes, doing homework was a huge problem. I never learned math very well for this reason and I still struggle with it in college.

I drank loads of caffeine all my life up until now. Since I stopped a year ago due to a severe anxious episode, everything has been very hard to focus on and I'm having all of these problems but they're much worse. I find it so difficult to become stimulated and one thing that keeps me away from even mild stimulants is now I have a HUGE crash when they wear off. It's mainly physical things like sweating, fast heart rate, shakiness, etc... all of those things are intolerable to me because they are so bad when I come off any stimulant. If I could figure out what causes that, I would stick to mild ones like ginseng, etc.

A psychiatrist will be the only person really able to diagnose you.

My schooling was surprisingly similar.

I was also placed into the "gifted" classes. Never learned math well in lower grades, just skimmed somehow getting A's. Never even learned my multiplication tables until the very end of HS, and still don't know them well, ha ha.

It started to fall apart for me in the 2nd year of HS, took a lot of AP classes, became very stressed, attention span dropped (or maybe I was just having to do tasks that required a longer attention span), anhedonia (but not really depression), and by my 3rd year, I was taking even more AP classes, lots of homework (most of which I did not complete), a lot of stress, zoning out a lot more, friends were picking on me/alienating me probably due to behavioral changes, started to become slightly paranoid and was "overthinking" everything and confused about everything, couldn't even focus on things I wanted to do.

ADD is highly comorbid with depression and anxiety because of the difficulty in doing tasks that are much easier for others and/or the overload of not being able to do things at the expected rate/vigilance.

On the other hand, it is correct that depression can cause attention problems. The key is separating the cause from the effect.

I don't know what is causing the crash. You get it even from ginseng? I wouldn't think that ginseng would have a rebound. That is odd.

How do you respond to ephedrine or the combination of pseudoephedrine and piracetam?

I don't know. Haven't tried it. Do you think that I should? Is that safe?

I am not certain of its safeness. I used it heavily (most pseudoephedrine + piracetam) for 4 or 5 months. There is moderate withdrawal afterwards, and I have read that it is bad for the heart (but I don't know if that stands true even when it doesn't visibly affect markers like BP and HR). To me, it was better than caffeine, but no where near a solution. I'm not sure if it would really be worth it to try, only if you are curious about your NE system (since it has strong effects on NE).

This is exactly how I would describe how I respond to amphetamine. Word for word. I just really hate the idea of taking powerful stimulants like that.

I haven't tried Ritalin or Concerta and I don't plan on it. If I do anything, I would prefer a more mild approach. Anything with a big risk of tolerance/addiction/etc. I would rather stay away from. Even though those things are the closest thing to making me feel "normal". Regardless, I would actually love to hear about your results with your current combo of Phenibut/Vyvanse.


I can understand and respect that. My goal too is to find things that don't build tolerance, although I ultimately only care about tolerance to the effects I am seeking, not if I build tolerance and withdraw from 2ndary effects when off the drug. Still, a drug without any dependence would be ideal.

I am curious about the effects of MAOIs... but I can't try them right now because I don't want to wash out of the amphetamine the process of which would harm my grades and I'm not really in the position to be buying them and everything right now. Especially reversible MAO-A inhibitors are very interesting for our problems, and they aren't addictive or dangerous and shouldn't really build tolerance/dependence.

Maybe COMT inhibitors? I don't know what the best ones are, but I think there are threads about it.

I will probably be buying some pitolisant eventually after more people try it.

What's very interesting to me is how some people take NRI's like Strattera and after a few days it sedates rather than stimulates. I wonder if I have dysregulated my body's adrenergic receptors throughout my body and if I were to take an NRI if it would correct it through tolerance, thus making stimulants much more tolerable for me.

Strattera is very fascinating. I don't fully understand its mechanism of action (why the increase in NE is almost universally calming), but the way people describe it feeling SOUNDS very similar to the effects that ritalin had on me. I think it would at least be interesting for combination with stimulants, and I want to try it eventually.

EDIT: Is Stablon a safe drug? Based on it's wiki page it seems like a very good option.

Stablon appears to be mostly safe from what I can tell.

There are a few odd reports of hair loss either on it or withdrawing from it, but I don't know of any side effects like SSRIs have or anything. As far as toxicity, I think it has been shown to be neuroprotective (at lest in some cases).

#16 nowayout

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:53 PM

I am not uninterested in this issue - I actually started another thread on this (to do with too much NE) recently and got some interesting answers there. If I seem negative sometimes it is more to do with the failure of most of the drugs that theoretically should have been able to treat me, and the psychiatrists who pushed them, and I am sorry for having been a bit bitchy; maybe it is the NE. In any case, a couple of interesting drugs suggested in that thread, both of which reduce NE, are clonidine and pregabalin. Clonidine is used off-label for NE-induced akathisia during opiate withdrawal because of its inhibition of CNS NE via the locus coeruleus. Its Wiki page is interesting to read. Clonidine is also sometimes used for ADHD. It is super cheap and easily available from online pharmacies. I actually am having some shipped as we speak and am looking forward to seeing if it makes a difference to me (generalized anxiety, depression, insomnia, sexual performance anxiety). Pregabalin also reduces NE via different mechanisms from clonidine and is also an interesting option, though difficult to get for personal experimentation. Most antidepressants (including agomelatine, the one I am currently on) are thought to increase NE either directly or indirectly, which is something I would like to avoid due to my history of anxiety. So at least I want to see what happens if I keep everything else the same but inhibit NE with clonidine.

Edited by nowayout, 06 September 2013 - 02:03 PM.


#17 khemix

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:38 PM

Sounds like your NE is too low. That can cause anxiety and the dulled mind. Yes, high levels of NE also cause anxiety but it's more of a driven paranoia where you become almost hyper-vigilant and OCD, not slugish and lethargic.Get on an NRI or go on stimulants.

And guanfacine is vastly superior to clonidine.

Edited by khemix, 06 September 2013 - 02:38 PM.


#18 nowayout

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:09 PM

Sounds like your NE is too low. That can cause anxiety and the dulled mind. Yes, high levels of NE also cause anxiety but it's more of a driven paranoia where you become almost hyper-vigilant and OCD, not slugish and lethargic.Get on an NRI or go on stimulants.

And guanfacine is vastly superior to clonidine.


No, I am not sluggish and lethargic. I am in fact anxious, hypervigilant, prone to OCD rituals (lots of handwashing when I am stressed), and an insomniac. My mind is not dulled either, it is sharp and hyperconscious and I can't turn it off. At the same time I am depressed, but not the low energy kind of depression - rather feelings of existential anxiety and hopelessness and bleakness, as well as anhedonia, that make me anxious and unable to sleep even while I want people to leave me alone. So an NRI or stimulants would be the opposite of what I need.

Why is guanfacine superior to clonidine? (I am not disputing it, just wondering why you say it.)

Edited by nowayout, 06 September 2013 - 03:15 PM.


#19 xeon

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:41 PM

No, I am not sluggish and lethargic. I am in fact anxious, hypervigilant, prone to OCD rituals (lots of handwashing when I am stressed), and an insomniac. My mind is not dulled either, it is sharp and hyperconscious and I can't turn it off. At the same time I am depressed, but not the low energy kind of depression - rather feelings of existential anxiety and hopelessness and bleakness, as well as anhedonia, that make me anxious and unable to sleep even while I want people to leave me alone.


This is what I experienced for several months when I went through a period of anxiety. Now that it's gone, I feel the opposite: sluggish and lethargic. My anxiety is almost purely physical. I would say I am the opposite of "hyper-conscious", as you said you were. Maybe I would benefit more from an NRI than you would. I would also like to try Guanfacine just to see what happens.

Not too familiar with pregabalin though... will have to do some reading on it.

#20 khemix

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:06 PM

Sounds like your NE is too low. That can cause anxiety and the dulled mind. Yes, high levels of NE also cause anxiety but it's more of a driven paranoia where you become almost hyper-vigilant and OCD, not slugish and lethargic.Get on an NRI or go on stimulants.

And guanfacine is vastly superior to clonidine.


No, I am not sluggish and lethargic. I am in fact anxious, hypervigilant, prone to OCD rituals (lots of handwashing when I am stressed), and an insomniac. My mind is not dulled either, it is sharp and hyperconscious and I can't turn it off. At the same time I am depressed, but not the low energy kind of depression - rather feelings of existential anxiety and hopelessness and bleakness, as well as anhedonia, that make me anxious and unable to sleep even while I want people to leave me alone. So an NRI or stimulants would be the opposite of what I need.

Why is guanfacine superior to clonidine? (I am not disputing it, just wondering why you say it.)

The low NE comment was directed to Xeon not you.

Guanfacine is superior because it selectively antogonizes the A subtype receptors which are heavily located in the PFC. This causes less sedation and cognitive impairment. In fact, studies show that guanfacine may improve working memory whereas clonidine universally impairs it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10192826

#21 xeon

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:32 PM

Guanfacine is superior because it selectively antogonizes the A subtype receptors which are heavily located in the PFC. This causes less sedation and cognitive impairment. In fact, studies show that guanfacine may improve working memory whereas clonidine universally impairs it.


This is amazing. Does this cause any negative long-term effects, like tolerance, withdrawals, etc.?

#22 xeon

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:44 PM

Question: Can low NE levels directly or indirectly cause a raised heart rate? I have recently been having heart palpitations and my doctor strongly suggested I go on Cymbalta for this ... which is an SNRI.

#23 nowayout

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:24 PM

Question: Can low NE levels directly or indirectly cause a raised heart rate? I have recently been having heart palpitations and my doctor strongly suggested I go on Cymbalta for this ... which is an SNRI.


i don't know what kind of doctor would suggest an SNRI for heart palpitations, but I would not do it, especially not Cymbalta, which is one of the ones with very high incidence of sexual side effects.

Cymbalta is certainly NOT a standard of care for heart palpitations.

I think he just wants you on an antidepressant, can see you are reluctant, and is uing this as an opportunity to manipulate you into taking one.

Edited by nowayout, 06 September 2013 - 10:26 PM.


#24 Tom_

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:22 PM

I'll make it perfectly clear from the outset:

This reductionism of Neurotransmitters is utterly useless, even more so in the sloppy way its done on this post.

Rant over, not looking for an argument, I can kick anybody who's posted so far's arse when it comes to Clinical Psychopharmacology :L

You have an anxiety disorder & possibly some depressive symptoms. Some drugs have been shown to help in it, their mechanism of actions tend to be on the serotonergic and noradernegic system but not all. If you are struggling to tolerate a serotonergic drug you should be waiting to make that decision after two weeks unless the symptoms are unendurable as most bar a few (sexual dysfunction) tend to go including the increased anxiety.

Buspirone is a potent anxioltyic and a good choice - better with an antidepressant, preferably an SSRI or SNRI ( a short term course of benzo's will do the trick until the unpleasant increase in anxiety etc has gone), combing it with melatonin may increase hippocampal neurogensis. Mirtazapine at night is a good choice.

Pregabalin could work but would leave it until after the above have been tried. The same goes for Beta blockers, could work well but are short term interventions, they won't make it go away.

If that doesn't work a prescription for Buroprion or Modafinil might hold some use but I doubt it.
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#25 xeon

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:48 PM

Cymbalta is certainly NOT a standard of care for heart palpitations.

I think he just wants you on an antidepressant, can see you are reluctant, and is uing this as an opportunity to manipulate you into taking one.


I actually considered this, because he tried very hard to get me on another antidepressant also at another time. He said the reason for prescribing Cymbalta for this was that I may have sleep apnea, which causes low grade depression and anxiety, then causing heart palpitations, and Cymbalta would correct the sleep apnea thus curing all of the problems in one go. Sounded like BS to me. He's tried to put me on Celexa, Paxil, and Cymbalta so far and I refused all of them.

If you are struggling to tolerate a serotonergic drug you should be waiting to make that decision after two weeks unless the symptoms are unendurable as most bar a few (sexual dysfunction) tend to go including the increased anxiety.


I will not take any Serotonergic drug simply because of the risk of sexual dysfunction. I tried several ones before (Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor) and they all caused unbearable side effects such as complete apathy and lack of emotions altogether, lack of focus, etc. I did not feel like myself at all and would never put a drug like that into my body again. Period.

I've taken Buspirone before but only for about 2 days because it wasn't mine -- my girlfriend allowed me to take a couple of hers hoping it would reduce my panic attacks, but it had no effect at all. Maybe I didn't take it long enough. I no longer have panic attacks or anything and I just have physical anxiety like heart palpitations and shaking/sweating but mentally I'm fine except for the dullness and reduced interest and attention span. So maybe you're right about the depressive symptoms. I'll consider the medications you mentioned.

Something else I forgot to mention is that I tried Wellbutrin for several weeks, and it made my anxiety worse but that was when I had severe anxiety. I doubt it would do that now. The reason I discontinued is that it made my hands/body so shaky that I couldn't even write. It was horrible. If there was some way I could prevent that I wouldn't have any problem taking Wellbutrin as an anti-depressant. I just wish there was a long term solution to lower physical anxiety symptoms (fast heart rate, shaking, sweating) without depressing the CNS. Beta blockers do seem like they are only to be used in the short term. I have Toprol but I don't see the point in taking it if it's not fixing the source of the problem.

In the end, I just want to reverse my depressive symptoms and have more focus/alertness and less physical symptoms of anxiety or fight-or-flight. Seems like a hard problem to fix.

#26 Tom_

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:53 AM

I'm making the safe assumption that the palpations which are non-specific signs of cardiac stress are caused by sub-clinical panic disorder &/or other anxiety problems not a cardio-pulmonary disorder, I assume any G.P worth his salt has also made that assessment, taken bp/pluse and depending on history also called for and had an ECG.

If you want to reverse you're depressive symptoms you are going to have to take an antidepressant. Taking stimulants like bupropion are going to do exactly what the burpropion did to you but even more potently.

Buspirone, Mirtazapine, Moclobemide, another SSRI you haven't tried (non-tolerance to one doesn't predict the next), Pregabalin (preferably after having tried a partial efficacy ad). Clonidine is an option, who ever said there was convincing evidence that it will reduce excutive functioning or what ever it was is wrong, its used to treat ADHD. You didn't try the Buspirone for anywhere near long enough. You will need to try it for about the same amount of time as an AD.
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#27 xeon

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 10:05 PM

Would it be safe/useful to combine Moclobemide with Guanfacine? I'm assuming you can answer this, Tom_, haha.

Rant over, not looking for an argument, I can kick anybody who's posted so far's arse when it comes to Clinical Psychopharmacology :L


Another question for you... you don't think it's possible to reverse depressive symptoms without taking an antidepressant?

#28 xeon

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 10:58 PM

Or could you combine Mirtazapine and Guanfacine? I plan on seeing my therapist/nurse practitioner next week if possible so I want to get the safest and most effect treatment possible. I want to ask if they would recommend that combination.

#29 Tom_

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 11:16 PM

Moclobemide is an excellent choice, maybe the best.

Combining it with Guanfacine (clonidine is better) increases the likelihood substantially of othostatic hypotension. If you feel you really need it a two-four week course of longish acting benzo's can be taken along side the Moclobemide, slowly titrating down from week 2 of treatment or the same with propanolol with the option to continue it.

Mirtazapine is a very good AD as well but at least side effect wise Moclobemide tends to be easier tolerated, effiacy of Moclobremide may be substantially higher but its difficult to tell without direct comparative studies.

If you are going to add in an a combo/adjunct of any kind I wouldn't do so until week six, the only cases these should be done in are inpatients and outpatients at high risk for attempted suicide/severe self injury/admission (no response at week four indicates a need to swap meds - mirtazapine is a great second option) and taking into account your history unless we are looking at very significant response by week six I would recommend a swap anyway.

Buspirone would be my first recommendation as an adjunct/combination.
Low dose Mirtazapine could be started as a combination treatment.

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#30 TheBatman

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 02:15 AM

If you are worried about having too much NE stimulation and racing thoughts, lithium orotate might help you. I think it has a way of supressing NE and CNS stimulation, but I don't know that for sure.

For me, it is like flipping the off switch on my cognition and anxiety. I can even fall asleep on a dose of adderall if I were to take lithium with it. The only problem for me has been brain fog, but that could mean I'm taking too much.





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