8 replies to this topic

[penisbreath]

I've been researching ldn for my clusterf- of disorders and it seems worth trying, given how cheap it is.

One thing that reports seem to be mixed on is its effects on anhedonia .. some people seem to say there's an initial mood boost, then numbness sets in (akin to regular opiate use). Is there any consensus regarding this, or does it tend to vary between users? Regarding that point, it also seems like some people avoid the effect by taking days off but I was curious how that worked, i.e. is it titrated nightly (or daily) until a tolerable dose is reached and then cycled, or should it be cycled from the get-go?

I've collected some remarks from primarily FunkOdyssey about the importance of adjusting to a given dose, before throwing the towel in, if anyone's interested.

Think of LDN like an SSRI. Pay no attention to what it is doing for you, either positively or negatively, for the first several weeks on a given dose (unless it is catastrophically or dangerously negative). That means if you are ramping your dose up slowly and prudently, you don't get to start drawing conclusions until several weeks AFTER you have finished your titration.

If I had to throw out a random guess, I'd say 75% of people who prematurely discontinued LDN would not have if they took this advice to heart. I mean, beta-endorphin levels are still rising SIX months after you've been on LDN. To say there is some adaptation that has to take place is a huge understatement.

Something I noticed in the LDN for Multiple Sclerosis study, beta-endorphin levels continued to rise for 30 days after LDN was discontinued. So some of the effects can lag behind the actual dosing, and you may continue to suffer as rising endorphins stimulate the immune system for quite awhile. I would see if ibuprofen helps.

on sleep

For people that, despite experimentation with effective countermeasures, cannot maintain healthy sleeping habits on LDN, it may be advisable to try morning dosing. This may not be quite as effective as bedtime dosing as therapy for some diseases for which LDN is classically used for (MS, crohn's disease), although no formal studies have been conducted to compare them head-to-head. However, if its just being used to enhance quality of life, immunity, etc in otherwise healthy individuals, I think morning dosing of LDN would be better than nothing and would not interfere with sleep.’

This actually turned out to be a good strategy for me. I was having trouble with sleep during the initial getting used to LDN. I switched to morning dosing for a week before resuming nighttime dosing. That week of morning dosing seems to have counted towards building tolerance towards LDN. Now the sleep disturbances are much reduced.

[nowayout]

Why would raising beta-endorphin willy-nilly be a good thing?

Beta-endorphins may suppress testosterone production in men (you can google for quite a bit of literature on this).

Not accusing you in particular, but it does seem like a lot of people here are just looking for new and different ways to get high, with the excuse of vague medical or psychological conditions. That's what much of the LDN stuff is about. For the record, I'm not against getting high, but...

As for medical conditions, too much endogenous opioids are probably just as bad as too much exogenous opioids.

Edited by nowayout, 04 October 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[penisbreath]

Well, it's not exactly willy-nilly when it's in the service of treating psychiatric symptoms. Why would raising serotonin willy-nilly be a good thing? It's probably not, which is why healthy people don't take SSRIs for the hell of it.

Many people seem to report a libido boost on LDN, and there's at least one guy in the ldn thread on here whose testosterone levels went up.

I'm not aware of ldn having abuse potential, other than being used to boost the effects of other opiods. I like the description on the jdtic site, which seems to sum up the difference between relieving anhedonia and getting high nicely:

"As hoped, it is not rewarding in itself, but life seems richer and the days more infused with meaning. Life's events are somehow funnier. Music sounds better, and activities which I normally enjoy are even more rewarding. This includes social interaction. I begin wondering what life was like without JDTic. From this vantage point I'm not sure I really know. "

I don't know if there are long-term deleterious effects associated with ldn use. People with fibromylgia and cfs to stay on it for years without incident, it seems. But I don't know everything and come here to learn. So if there is evidence it might be harmful in the long run, I would definitely take that into consideration.

[check]

I'll add my personal experience, for what it is.

[Background: I'm hopefully coming out of a depression on 70 mg tranylcypromine with rTMS treatment, along with a Scopolamine test. Things are looing good.]

I've tried LDN in three periods. About a year and a half ago my Psych had me try it. I think I took about two weeks- we didn't notice anything, and I stopped it. No positive or negative effects. (I think I was on 80mg fluoxetine, bupropion?, and 600-900 lithium at the time. Hard to say.) My dosing was essentially cutting up the 50 mg pill and taking a little bit. Not very precise. (Tried making lines and things for better estimation, and thought of a scale...but I can't say I really cared at the time. Now understand why people used mirrors though.)

After a consult with another psych earlier this year, tried it again. Within a few days I noticed things seemed to be slightly brighter and food tasted slightly better. Maybe anxiety was less. No problems with sleep or other ill effects. I kept on it until I went on vacation this summer for two weeks. No problems off of it. Started it again a week after. Same general positive effects. Perhaps the small anxiety effect is more based in feeling less worn out by high depression/anxiety periods or better recovery/resilience. I'm still taking it.


Covering other points of reference:
Maybe 8 years ago I was on an opioid after major nasal surgery, because of the bleeding risk with other options. I don't have any other reference. Just made me very fuzzy and very slow, with stomach problems. I remember checking my reflexes and being amazed at how off I was, far more than I felt. I was given another prescription after extensive wisdom teeth surgery, but didn't take them because of that experience.

I also haven't experienced any sort of runner's high or any degree of endorphin like that, even during a few years of intense exercise and interval training. In fact, I mainly just feel worn out and worse after exercise, but there are enough health problems in my family to warrant a moderate level. Exercise did not do anything significant for my depression. (To be fair, it does seem like I have some sort of weird autonomic thing going on, and I did end up going to the hospital during a gym episode that I don't remember, so I don't think I'm very normal. I was cleared cardiac-wise with a stress echo, was not on any medicines, and have always been good with hydration and electrolyte and glycemic control, so I don't know why. Probably dismissed as something vasovagal or a TIA. I have a good deal of orthostatic hypotension with the parnate now, but I do hope to get back to some health habits.)


In essence, LDN has been good for me, but I'm likely pretty far from a normal case.

[nowayout]

To take accurate small doses, dissolve in water and drink a.measured amount daily.

[check]

Well, that would depend on the solubility of the drug with its binders, and clumping effects. If it was just a suspension, it would have to be mixed every day. Additionally, for something that would last quite a few doses from one pill, likely evaporation would come into play for the water level. (Across a few weeks from one 50 mg naltrexone.)

[nowayout]

It is soluble. Fillers and stuff don't matter if you evenly distribute by shaking before use, which is in the intructions of all liquid medications anyway. Evaporation is not an issue if you close the bottle.

Any slight remaining inacvuracies are surely much less than cutting powder on a mirror.

[check]

Oh yeah, absolutely better than the cutting. But much less suspicious-looking.

I've actually been more interested in solutions to take throughout the day, mainly because I don't like dumping large amounts of chemical changes at once with tranylcypromine and its short half life in play. I get a good deal of postural hypotension from it, and usually three cans of soda clear me above 90/70 across the time period, but I have have a stomach acid problem and would really rather find a different solution. Caffeine pills just are generally too much at one time for that purpose. I'd be interested in seeing how water soluble racetams or something like small doses of lithium would work as well. Certainly not pleasant to drink.

Realized this was off-topic.

Toll-Like Receptor 4 seems like an interesting target in certain sorts of anxiety or inflammatory conditions...and the alcohol binging gene factor seems very interesting coming from a line of heavy drinkers. I've avoided major alcohol, having seen a few family members go in, but have been stuck with the anxiety. I'm curious if variations around those factors with GABA would cause particular types of inflammatory anxiety.

[dannyfc]

Took this for about 8 weeks, slight mood lift but nothing more. I have other problems though so may be different from a healthy user.

Edited by dannyfc, 06 October 2013 - 07:23 PM.