15 replies to this topic

[BlueCloud]

Following my experiment with Sulbutiamine on this thread , and my curious strong reaction to it this time whereis it was very inneficient last time I've tried it, I kept experimenting with CDP-Choline, L-Tyrosine, Sulbutiamine with interesting results :

Before :
- I don't feel anything from CDP-Choline by itself. And I never needed it to make Piracetam work.
- L-Tyrosine sometimes work but in a very unpredictible and unreliable manner. I'll sometimes feel some effects from it upon dosing the first day, then nothing for subsequent days. And sometimes it wouldn't work at all on the first day.
- Sulbutiamine felt very weak usually, even at very high doses.

Now :
- If I take CDP-Choline ( 500mg) by itself for a few days ( 3 or 4), then add L-Tyrosine ( usually 2 grams), I can feel the effects of the latter every single time with no exceptions, and for the following days as long as I'm taking it . The longest I've been taking it in a row is 4 days.
Same thing with Sulbutiamine, I can feel a very strong effect from just 200 or 400 mg , from the first day. No tolerance even if I take it up to 5 days in a row.

- If I don't take any of this for a week or so, and start CDP-Choline plus either Tyrosine or Sulbutiamine simultaneously the first day, it doesn't work. Only after a few days of CDP-Choline dosing would I start to see results for Tyrosine od Sulb.

So it seems that pre-loading with CDP Choline for a few days before is necessary to make me feel anything for Tyrosine or Sulb.

CDP-Choline is said to increase dopamine receptor densities ( see http://www.longecity...ptor-densities/ )
It certainly made a huge difference in my case in regard to Tyrosine and Sulbutiamine, whose effect on Dopamine is helping me a lot on some issues now. I'll detail the subjective feeling I'm getting from these two in a later post.

Bottom line : If you're a non-responder to either L-Tyrosine or Sulbutiamine, you ought to try loading with CDP-Choline for a few days before dosing any of those two supplements. You might be surprised with the results this time.

Edited by BlueCloud, 08 October 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[machete234]

Did you do anything that could lower the dopamine receptor density like say doing stimulants?

Anyways nice find, the interesting question would be how long the receptor density stays elevated, it has to go back to normal a few days after not taking the CDP anymore, right?

Edited by machete234, 11 October 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[BlueCloud]

Did you do anything that could lower the dopamine receptor density like say doing stimulants?

Never done stimulants ( Ritaline, Modafinil, etc..) . And they're next to impossible to get them prescribed here. I did drink lots of coffee for a while, but Im' not sure that's enough to lower receptors densities or desensitize them.

Anyways nice find, the interesting question would be how long the receptor density stays elevated, it has to go back to normal a few days after not taking the CDP anymore, right?

My guess is that they return back to normal, because after ceasing CDP ( and Sulb/Tyrosine) for a few days, if I restart Sulb or Ty again , I don't feel much from them unless I restart the CDP also for a few days.
However I only started this combination a month ago or so, and I never took CDP for more than 6 or 7 days in a row without a break. Maybe taking it long-term would yield different results.

[Mr Serendipity]

Any update?

[BlueCloud]

Any update?

Not really. I stopped it because I started trying some other stuff, but I will be back on it soon. But I've tried this combination on and off multiple times with always the same result : I don't notice anything from cdp-choline alone, but if taken 3 or 4 days before starting Tyrosine or Sulbutiamine, it distinctively enhanced the effects of the latter two ( wich usually feel much weaker without cdp) .

Edited by BlueCloud, 20 January 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Interesting.

It could be due to the fact that CDP-Choline is turned into Choline and Uridine, in vivo, and that Uridine is needed for RNA synthesis and cellular metabolism. It would help with normalization and priming the cells for action, and then you drop those raw materials in and they have more of an action. Just a theory, tho.

[ZHMike]

I did not respond too sulbutiamine at all, but I have been taking cdp choline and have some left. I will give this a try and report back.

[BlueCloud]

Interesting.

It could be due to the fact that CDP-Choline is turned into Choline and Uridine, in vivo, and that Uridine is needed for RNA synthesis and cellular metabolism. It would help with normalization and priming the cells for action, and then you drop those raw materials in and they have more of an action. Just a theory, tho.

I thought about that too, but my experience with Uridine was a complete failure ( see my account here http://www.longecity.../page__st__2280 ) , although I only tried once to add tyrosine to that stack. So i'm thinking there must be some different mechanism if citicoline worked in enhancing tyrosine/sulbutiamine , and not uridine, at least in my personal case.

[ZHMike]

I have been taking CDP citicoline between 500 mg and 1000 mg daily for about two weeks. About a month ago I tried sulbutiamine with ZERO effect. In response to this thread I took my usual 500 mg cdp with breakfast, and added 400 mg sulbutiamine. As of 3 hours post dose I have noticed no change from baseline, I wish I could say it helped a bit but as usual ZERO effect from sulbutiamine. I will try 800 mg at breakfast tomorrow, one last shot.

I wonder why some people response so strongly and others do not?

[BlueCloud]

How could I miss this ... ?

Citicoline was shown to stimulate tyrosine hydroxylase activity and dopamine release (Secades and Frontera 1995)

http://onlinelibrary...rb10o3c418fd48a

There it is, a simple explaination. It's not because of Uridine ( or maybe not only because of it) , but more tyrosine hydroxylase = More L-Tyrosine converted to L-Dopa, then to Dopamine. The process of tyrosine hydroxylase is the limiting factor in the conversion of L-Tyrosine into something usable by the brain... No conversion, no effects from taking L-Tyrosine.

Edited by BlueCloud, 05 February 2014 - 08:14 PM.

[Jeoshua]

That does explain why, in my experiments, CDP-Choline + L-Tyrosine + L-Tryptophan + B Complex has has a markedly increased effect, vs taking any one of those elements out of the stack.

CDP-Choline potentiating the activity of Tyrosine Hydroxylase
L-Tyrosine being the raw materials
L-Tyrptophan allowing the brain to make more Serotonin so the brain doesn't put on the brakes
B Complex supporting the constant flows of ATP and NAD+ required for this process

[Neal Cullum]

That does explain why, in my experiments, CDP-Choline + L-Tyrosine + L-Tryptophan + B Complex has has a markedly increased effect, vs taking any one of those elements out of the stack.

CDP-Choline potentiating the activity of Tyrosine Hydroxylase
L-Tyrosine being the raw materials
L-Tyrptophan allowing the brain to make more Serotonin so the brain doesn't put on the brakes
B Complex supporting the constant flows of ATP and NAD+ required for this process

 

Why do you take L-Tryptophan and L-Tyrosine together? Wouldn't they compete with each other?
 

[Jeoshua]

Only insomuch as both Tryptophan and Tyrosine (and Phenylalanine) use the same enzymes to convert into their attendant neurotransmitters. By supplementing B and C vitamins, you can keep them both converting at the rate they are needed without depleting that enzyme.

Edited by Jeoshua, 13 May 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[Aurel]

Hi Jeo,

 

i am always low on serotonin. How much of the b-c vitamins did one had to supplement to keep the tryptophan/tyrosine machine going? Would you take them in several dosis over the day? On an emtpy stomach? Thank you so much.

[BlueCloud]

Some more evidence that choline enhances tyrosine hydroxylase :

http://wurtmanlab.mi...tic/pdf/320.pdf

 

 

Abstract

The administration of choline in doses previously shown to elevate brain acetylcholine concentrations also increases the activity of tyrosine hydroxylase in rat caudate nuclei. This response can be blocked by atropine, a muscarinic antagonist. These findings indicate that choline-induced increases in acetylcholine concentrations may be associated with parallel changes in the amount of the neurotransmitter released into synapses.

 

As a side note, I took 3g of Tyrosine this morning for the first time after a long break, and without loading up before with cdp-choline as usual, and got the paradoxal reaction of extreme sleepiness...

Any other non-responders to Tyrosine or Sulbutiamine having success after adding Cdp-Choline ?

[mcc23]

Hey guys I created this account solely to chime in on this thread. I've been taking DLPA during the day at 1 g split up into 2 doses. Initially the effects were rather prononounced, however they have since dissipated. I read that CDP- Choline can upregulate the DA post synaptic receptors by lowering DA concentrations. I'm trying to figure out why the "effects" are less pronounced. I've been reading that when you shoot up dopamine that it will lower serotonin levels, and if they continue to get TOO low, that supplementing dopamine precursors is going to have little effect until you get the serotonin back to normal. My other theory was that the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme has been downregulated due to the large influx of dopamine. Perhaps the B / C vitamins are depleted?? I know this is an old thread but it seemed like a lot of the previous posts were just speculation about the causes of tolerance. I figured we could come to a consensus on it