49 replies to this topic

[Brett Black]

And it fits nicely with anatgonistic pleiotropy concept (what makes one grow at a faster rate is also what is aging).

But growth rate is ostensibly faster before puberty than after puberty.

Delaying puberty with GnRH agonists may actually increase growth(height), apparently because hormones released during puberty stop continued bone growth, e.g.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15339243

Edited by Brett Black, 29 October 2013 - 03:50 AM.

[xEva]

But growth rate is ostensibly faster before puberty than after puberty.

Yes, you're right about that. But! I think the key to longevity is not in sex hormones per se -- they are produced by the gonads -- but in somatotrophic hormones produced by pituitary.

I did a little reading in the past day-two and it appears that GnRH antagonists do not necessarily stop output of FSH and LH in adults, as I expected, but only lower them somewhat (I found this in a few studies of women on GnRH antagonists from the top of the google list -- maybe it was an odd draw of the luck -?) The GnRH antagonists only made the ovaries stop producing hormones. After several months of therapy FSH and LH remained rather high and only came down a notch or two. And it is FSH and LH that I see as the problem.

Curiously, the recent post by reason (http://www.longecity...estricted-mice/) brings up longevity of "hypopituitary Ames dwarf mouse". I see hypopituitary as the key word here, because GnRH, FSH and LH are also produced by pituitary gland. It seems that, for longevity, pituitary has to be mellowed out instead of producing obscene quantities of its hormones, ah?

And regarding the old Daoist method, I remembered that I got it not from Cleary but from Wile's Art of Bedchamber; Women's Solo Meditation. I don't have that book at the moment but I recall that the method included breast massage, which hints at prolactin as the means of stopping the menstruation. I looked up prolactin and enough of it does make ptuitary stop FSH and LH.


@JohnD60: thanks for your suggestion. I looked up the charts and.. sure, an already grown organism does not need as much growth hormones as the one that is still developing. About "Little" Jimmy Scott above, I read in wiki that "at the age of 37, he grew another 8 inches to the height of 5 feet 7 inches". I presume that was due to a hormonal therapy. I do not want my GH 10 times higher, but I happen to know that in adults GH peaks x10 naturally after a 38-48h fast.

[inferno300]

Um xeva i was wondering does puberty effect the mind of puberty pls respond

[xEva]

Um xeva i was wondering does puberty effect the mind of puberty pls respond

I do not know

[xEva]

There was a man here james41, an endocrinologist, who in 2010 posted his regimen. He claimed to be ~40 but looked ~19 and he did it by inhibiting his sex hormones. The testosterone crowd was very upset by his method and apparently ran him off the board. I cannot find his thread now. What happened to it? His profile lists 83 posts but very few can be found -?? His thread is not here anymore.

Can moderators explain what happened to it?

I could only find some references to it:

Some people were dissing james41 guy at the regimens section of his alleged "unproved claims", but geez...

1. The poster you mentioned claimed to do the same thing with chemical castration and by messing around at extreme levels with hormones. ...

Edited by xEva, 01 November 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Brett Black]

In lieu of good grasp of endocrinology, at the moment, the only support to my idea I find in some of Chinese qigong practices based on the old Daoist tradition. I realize that this says nothing to those who have never heard of it, let alone had a chance to give it some thought.. still, most have probably heard of Dao De Jing (this is the modern pinyin spelling) and remember the lines about being like a child. Also, I had a fortune to study one such method, called Child Longevity Qigong; and there practitioners are invited to experience the attitude and feelings of a child (even though the age there is 6-7 y and not 11-12).

The other support to my idea I see in some traditional women practices (like in Immortal Sisters: Secrets of Taoist Women by Thomas Cleary). There, to achieve 'immortality', a woman must 'slay the red dragon' (=stop menstruation); and if she is already past menopause, she must first 'start the red dragon' and then 'slay it' (= resume menstruating and then stop it). I should go back to Cleary and see what herbs were mentioned there in support of the main method, which is meditation (= qi is moved along certain channels in prescribed pattern). [size=4]Speaking 'hormonally', I believe that these old 'immortality' practices in fact worked on hormones. Of course, there is no 'studies' that would confirm or deny this (also 'immortality' in the Daoist tradition is what in modern times is understood as the quest for extreme longevity -- just what this board is all about).

Why would you give any credence whatsoever to these Daoist ideas when so many pre-scientific, religious, "spiritual", "traditional" types of ideas are full of superstition, ignorance and downright stupidity?

[xEva]

Why would you give any credence whatsoever to these Daoist ideas when so many pre-scientific, religious, "spiritual", "traditional" types of ideas are full of superstition, ignorance and downright stupidity?

I had very positive and even amazing experiences with qigong which is a modern term for the 'inner practice' of the old Daoist tradition. I also have great respect for Chinese medicine. I believe, overall, their knowledge of the human body is more advanced, even though their concepts are admittedly different. Only very recently western science discovered the primo-vascular system, while Chinese have known of it for thousands of years (meridians). Daoism is the oldest known life-extension tradition (in contrast to western religions concerned with 'afterlife'). I would not discount their experience out of hand only because the framework is very different.

[Brett Black]

I had very positive and even amazing experiences with qigong which is a modern term for the 'inner practice' of the old Daoist tradition. I also have great respect for Chinese medicine. I believe, overall, their knowledge of the human body is more advanced, even though their concepts are admittedly different. Only very recently western science discovered the primo-vascular system, while Chinese have known of it for thousands of years (meridians). Daoism is the oldest known life-extension tradition (in contrast to western religions concerned with 'afterlife'). I would not discount their experience out of hand only because the framework is very different.

The history, evidence and results, CRUSHINGLY overwhelming support the Western-originated scientific method in most if not all areas of human progress. Antibiotics, human flight, moon landings, nuclear energy, computers, internet etc etc etc - the breadth, depth and magnitude of achievement has no known equal, nothing else even comes remotely close.

Most "traditional" practices are absolutely pathetic in comparison and discouragingly often have characteristics that should be shunned by anyone truly interested in advancing human knowledge, progress and wellbeing(characteristics like ignorance, bias, uncritical adherence to tradition, lack of skepticism, unquestioning conformity, unchecked belief in authority, superstition etc etc etc.)

There is a vitally important choice to be made by each individual as to how they spend their personal "resources"(e.g. time, money, thoughts, energy.) Those who choose to spend their resources on methods that have shown time and time again to be deeply and fatally flawed (such as "traditional" practices) should remain ever aware of the fact that they may be squandering their resources and also potentially slowing or even reversing human progress and wellbeing on both an indivdual and species-wide level.

Humanity has already seen centuries and millenia of backwardness as a result of the shunning of reason and evidence. Do not fuel another descent into the darkness.

[xEva]

Humanity has already seen centuries and millenia of backwardness as a result of the shunning of reason and evidence. Do not fuel another descent into the darkness.

LOL easy on pathos! It is clear to me that you have not met a real qigong master (and I have been lucky to have met several). You do not have an experience without which whatever I say will fall on deaf ears. I assure you that current western science does not even know how to approach the simplest of qigong phenomena, which leaves little hope trying to understand something more advanced.

But this is not the thread to discuss this. All I can say to you, there is more to life in general and humans in particular than you ever dreamed about. But you won't get it from reading scientific journals. You need to have real experiences. Live a little.

[Brett Black]

Humanity has already seen centuries and millenia of backwardness as a result of the shunning of reason and evidence. Do not fuel another descent into the darkness.

LOL easy on pathos!

Oh haha heeheee teehee. This is no joke. (As one example)the great majority of the world's population are still under the delusionary grip of iron-age magical sky wizard religion. We are still in the midst of a great struggle with deeply entrenched irrational forces that threaten the progress of humanity.

Luckily most of these people are also pathetically bereft of significant passion and drive and so likely present minor risk. But be under no illusions, the risk remains. I'll be fucked if I'm gonna allow "us" to be dragged down by these morons.

It is clear to me that you have not met a real qigong master (and I have been lucky to have met several).

Maybe all the one's I've met were fake, huh? But then how would you or anyone else know? Right?

You do not have an experience without which whatever I say will fall on deaf ears.

How convenient....for you.

I assure you that current western science does not even know how to approach the simplest of qigong phenomena,

The limitations of science are well known and have been examined in great detail. How or why exactly can science not appoach these phenomena?

All I can say to you, there is more to life in general and humans in particular than you ever dreamed about.

Given the constant ongoing daily accumulation of knowledge and novel experiences I have had over my entire life thus far, I'm inclined to agree that even the scope of my dreams pales in comparison with the reality of life and humans.

However, said accumulation of knowledge and experience has also bestowed upon me methods to predict and direct myself toward apparently accurate analysis and understanding of reality. It appears that my abilities in his area currently outstrip yours.

But you won't get it from reading scientific journals. You need to have real experiences. Live a little.

If your "live a little" entails confusing fantasy and reality, as you appear to have done in regards the Qi Gong "masters", then I don't want that type of "living" thank you very much.

Edited by Brett Black, 04 November 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[xEva]

Brett, I resent you derailing the discussion. But since you're so passionate about the subject I cannot leave it without the answer.

Most "traditional" practices are absolutely pathetic in comparison and discouragingly often have characteristics that should be shunned by anyone truly interested in advancing human knowledge...

I don't know about most "traditional" practices. I speak from the direct experience with a specific practice, as it became known to me. On what exactly do you base your very strong opinion and why do you believe it applies to me and my experience?

There is a vitally important choice to be made by each individual as to how they spend their personal "resources"(e.g. time, money, thoughts, energy.) Those who choose to spend their resources on methods that have shown time and time again to be deeply and fatally flawed (such as "traditional" practices) should remain ever aware of the fact that they may be squandering their resources and also potentially slowing or even reversing human progress and wellbeing on both an indivdual and species-wide level.

Right. It sounds to me that you hardly spent any time to study the subject of which I'm talking about and yet you have a strong, emotionally charged opinion about it. How is this rational?

...the great majority of the world's population are still under the delusionary grip of iron-age magical sky wizard religion. We are still in the midst of a great struggle with deeply entrenched irrational forces that threaten the progress of humanity.

You're forcing the discussion into the world religions, which has nothing to do with the specific subject at hand. If qigong practice is outside your reference range, you can simply ignore its mention. No need to get upset.

Luckily most of these people are also pathetically bereft of significant passion and drive and so likely present minor risk. But be under no illusions, the risk remains. I'll be fucked if I'm gonna allow "us" to be dragged down by these morons.

I find your passion admirable. And I want to believe you're sincere. This combination could make you an excellent advocate for the subject of which, at the moment, you speak so negatively. Even though various qigong practices are accessible to all, some advanced areas are admittedly not commonly experienced (and if they were, we would not be having this discussion). There is no point talking about those less common experiences with someone who cannot relate -- and that you cannot relate due to mere lack of experience I can tell because most of my life I had exactly the same opinion as you -- even though I was not that passionate about it, simply cause I could not care less what morons believed and not for a moment did I think that they could drag me down. I'm certain that if you choose to explore qigong, with time you will be able not only to relate but will indeed become its best advocate, exactly because you care

It is clear to me that you have not met a real qigong master (and I have been lucky to have met several).

Maybe all the one's I've met were fake, huh? But then how would you or anyone else know? Right?

I don't know whom you met and what was your experience. I can only brag that I happened to be really fortunate in this regard, even though I did not know that at the time. ..which is what happens when you approach a new subject without any reference base. Only years later, when I learned enough, did I realize how fortunate I had been. I wish you equally amazing experiences on your path.

The limitations of science are well known and have been examined in great detail. How or why exactly can science not approach these phenomena?

Again, your question tells me that you know nothing about the subject at hand -- which does not prevent you from having a very strong, emotionally charged, opinion about it. You still think this is a rational position?

... said accumulation of knowledge and experience has also bestowed upon me methods to predict and direct myself toward apparently accurate analysis and understanding of reality. It appears that my abilities in his area currently outstrip yours.

See how without any experience you're certain about your superior ability to understand it? Still call this rational?

Just like most people, you dismiss the evidence without bothering to examine it, simply because the description does not fit into our current scientific models. This is the position of an intellectually lazy person, who, rather than face very difficult questions, prefers to label the opponents as either fools or cheaters -- a background against which one can't help but appear both reasonable and honest.

Besides wanting to appear reasonable and honest, people also want to feel secure that they're on the level and know what's what about the world. Having to re-examine their familiar notions about 'reality' frightens them. Look how emotional you got. Ask yourself why.

Edited by xEva, 05 November 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Brett Black]

I'm passionately interested in and driven to support human progress. In this particular discussion I'm focused on human biological progress; specifically, retarding/reversing the harmful impact of aging on human biology.

In that effort I'm NOT going to spend significant amounts of my currently limited resources/time/energy on things that, UPON INITIAL APPRAISAL, appear to offer poor chances of progress. That would be wasteful and irrational given my stated goal.

Upon initial appraisal, Qigong, Daoism and many/most other "traditional practices" show extremely poor chances of progress when compared against Western science. Your personal and subjective experiences of Qigong do little to boost my appraised value of Quigong.

For millenia, humans have displayed bias, ignorance, superstition, placebo effect, delusion and anti-progress characteristics(even to the point of forming massive multi-generational collective traditions and organizations based on said characteristics.) I have little reason to assume your views/experiences of Qigong are any different.

---

I could not care less what morons believed and not for a moment did I think that they could drag me down.

Progress in the rea of antiagng likely rests upon, and almost certainly will be hastened by, vast swathes of humanity (and not just scientists) posessing the right mentality. Actions and behaviour flow from mentality. The most glaringly obvious examples of a mentality stifling progress can be seen in cases like stem cell research being held back by religious mentality(pro-life Christians.)

As Aubrey De Gray points out, much of society is in the grip of a pro-death trance. There are innumerable other subtle and very pervasive memes that infect the minds of many, and they are most definitely a threat to progress.

The current call (and mindless zombie acceptance) for "tolerance" toward varying mentalities and beliefs may have pragmatic value in curbing the destructive tribal warfare tendencies of the moronic apes, but the price for peace may be progress.

"As long as it doesn't hurt anyone!" can, in the long run, be very hurtful to humanity indeed.

Just like most people, you dismiss the evidence without bothering to examine it, simply because the description does not fit into our current scientific models.

What and where is this evidence you speak of?

I assure you that current western science does not even know how to approach the simplest of qigong phenomena

Again, how or why can science not "approach" these claimed phenmena?

---

What If I told you that I have the ability to fly like superman, and I did a flying tour around the universe last night and had lunch with magical invisible elves on the dark side of the moon, and they taught me how to be immortal?

Edited by Brett Black, 08 November 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[inferno300]

I just read the man who is 24 (Mohammad up above) and heres something this man's body is actually smaller not younger and he has normal intelligent it may not LOOK like he's smaller but according to the page all he has is a hormone imbalance

Thank you for bringing the matter to light, but unfortunately all you did was repeat what was already being speculated. I would also like to ask whether you are not in fact him, have a similar condition or know someone with a similar condition? I asks this because you seem very prickly about the topic being brought up in the first place and are consistently misconstruing all that is being said here as insults towards people with this rare condition. Maybe your English is simply not so good, but you should read properly and not assume so much insult as it can make someone seem very paranoid.

Eruditus im sorry if i said that as an insult my english isnt very good pls forgive me about how bad i was

Also i didnt mean to be prickly

[Brafarality]

There was a man here james41, an endocrinologist, who in 2010 posted his regimen. He claimed to be ~40 but looked ~19 and he did it by inhibiting his sex hormones. The testosterone crowd was very upset by his method and apparently ran him off the board. I cannot find his thread now. What happened to it? His profile lists 83 posts but very few can be found -?? His thread is not here anymore.

Can moderators explain what happened to it?

I could only find some references to it:

Some people were dissing james41 guy at the regimens section of his alleged "unproved claims", but geez...

1. The poster you mentioned claimed to do the same thing with chemical castration and by messing around at extreme levels with hormones. ...

Hi, Eva. I remember James41. I thought his chemical castration thread was fascinating but was also one of the skeptics. If you claim to look 19 at 40, people will want to see evidence.

From the way he posted and goaded people onward, and from the masterful way he danced around posting a pic, I actually suspect he was a troll - probably an existing Longecity member who set up a second account to rile people up with claims he knew would hit open nerves. I could be wrong, but he was a master at acting clueless to the extremity of his claims, and using the language barrier excuse at just the right moment to cause the most consternation among the dissenters. A true master! Someone to be celebrated, if he turns out to be a troll.

Of course, no one will top the guy who fake-signed at the Mandela funeral ceremony. That guy is up there with the legends, but James41 is not bad.

Edited by Brafarality, 04 April 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[xEva]

Brafarality, back then I posted the question about his thread in the regimens forum, and niner replied that it was moved to the members section to protect his privacy.

Unlike you, I did believe James. The info he gave seemed legit to my admittedly limited in this area understanding. He claimed to be a trained and practicing endocrinologist, and I did not spot anything that would contradict it.

It's too bad no-one could relate to his experience and contribute to his thread. That must have been the primary reason why he went online with it. Having found derision instead, I can understand why he wanted his thread removed altogether. The mods compromised by moving it to the restricted section.


But, with the example of the guy at the topic of this thread, why would you disbelieve James41? Maybe I had no trouble believing him, because I happen to know some people who looked phenomenally --unbelievably some would say-- young for their age (without playing with their hormones though) and they would not want to "join the circus" by posting their real pictures or real experience without a proper compensation for their loss of privacy. And real people with this kinda real problem tend to rate such a loss unrealistically high

.

Edited by xEva, 05 April 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[Brafarality]

Brafarality, back then I posted the question about his thread in the regimens forum, and niner replied that it was moved to the members section to protect his privacy.

Unlike you, I did believe James. The info he gave seemed legit to my admittedly limited in this area understanding. He claimed to be a trained and practicing endocrinologist, and I did not spot anything that would contradict it.

It's too bad no-one could relate to his experience and contribute to his thread. That must have been the primary reason why he went online with it. Having found derision instead, I can understand why he wanted his thread removed altogether. The mods compromised by moving it to the restricted section.


But, with the example of the guy at the topic of this thread, why would you disbelieve James41? Maybe I had no trouble believing him, because I happen to know some people who looked phenomenally --unbelievably some would say-- young for their age (without playing with their hormones though) and they would not want to "join the circus" by posting their real pictures or real experience without a proper compensation for their loss of privacy. And real people with this kinda real problem tend to rate such a loss unrealistically high

His posting style, diction and frequency so perfectly match that of a troll, who happened to arrive at the exact right hornet's nest to post the exact perfect flaming claim, that I am almost certain of it. I have seen it so many times where other topics and forums are concerned that it is pretty obvious. And asking for the thread to be removed or relocated is a clunking simplistic continuation of the troll persona to show how serious he is and to reinforce the overall effect. Unless I see evidence to the contrary, I hold this belief.

And, the privacy claim is also typical, and you may be feeding right into it. It has the same structure as a second rate marketing scam, where the inventor can't reveal his secret cure for baldness or sell it to those who are strong arming him because he wants to protect his family, and fears backlash from the angered physicians and pharmaceutical companies of the world who want to suppress his discovery.. Though, here, the end goal was not to make money, but to exacerbate people! I admire this stuff!

Edited by Brafarality, 05 April 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[Dondon Rojo Degamo]

I too have the same condition, im 23 now turning 24 this april but i really look like a 13 year old boy.

Unlike  Mohammad, i have a pubic hair all over my body and i can speak like an adult but i don't have an adam's apple.

Edited by Dondon Rojo Degamo, 15 January 2017 - 01:55 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Um xeva i was wondering does puberty effect the mind of puberty pls respond

 

The hormones in the puberty affect the brain, yes. In my medical book of human physiology it is written, that the sex hormones actually trigger changes in the entire body. For the brain speciphically they induce the sex drive and the sexual behaviour.

[orion602]

so, how does Mohammad Farooq  look now, after 4 years? i was unable to find any news or videos about him

[InquilineKea]

Gao Xiang is *40* now... No updates from him?

 

It's very subtle, but I could imagine/barely see some of the first signs of skin aging on him. He doens't quite look like a 12-year-old boy or teenager. For a 30 year old to look that way isn't *that* impressive.

 

There are some people who have stopped developing developmentally early in life and who still have the standard signs of age-damage (think of those who were castrated or have dwarf syndromes) - they look like someone in the very early stages of progeria (though they still have way longer longevities than someone w/progeria)

Edited by InquilineKea, 12 November 2023 - 12:26 AM.