18 replies to this topic

[KryptonStratos]

Ive recently added a few more herbs and supplements to my regime. Im wondering if any of these taken together would have a negative effect. Heres my everyday supps/herbs as of right now

Multivitamin
Fish oil
CLA
Coconut oil
Stinging nettle
Cissus Quadrangularis
Indole 3 Carbinol
Tribulus
Bitter melon extract
Coleus Forskohii
Echinacea
Cinnamon
Ginger extract
Quercitin
R-ALA
Giant knotweed
Grape seed extract
Calcium d glucarate
Rhodiola
Ashwagandha
Holy basil
Wild oats
Schisandra
Ginkgo
Bacopa
Gotu kola
ZMA
Gaba
Melatonin
California poppy
Valerian
Passionflower
Chamomile
Lemon balm
Creatine
Beta alanine
Citruline malate
Agmatine
HICA
Proline rich peptides
Growth factors (Igf-1, TGF beta-2, EGF, PDGF)
BCAA's (glutamine, leucine, valine, isoleucine, alanine, lysine, arginine, glycine, histidine, tyrosine, cysteine, methionine, phenylalanine, proline, serine, aspartic acid, theronine, tryptophan)

Ive been bodybuilding for the past couple years so that is why you will see many workout supps such as creatine, bcaas, I3C, etc. Keep in mind these all arent being taken seperately. A lot of these just happen to be in my supplements and i have no idea what they do. Anything here bad to combine? Also if you see anything here that contains phytoestrogens or has estrogenic properties, please aware me.

[KryptonStratos]

bump

[theconomist]

I'd be a bit worried with all those herbs that are providing you with clear benefits especially considering the recent studies on herbal supps and contaminents. http://www.healthlin...r-labels-101513
I cut out many of the herbals I was taking, if something doesn't have clear evidence for it (and very little herbals do) I'd suggest cutting it out.
Also see: http://www.longecity...es/#entry617409

[KryptonStratos]

anyone else?

[blood]

Phytoestrogens aren't necessarily harmful, are they? If a phytoestrogen can displace estradiol at various receptors but stimulate those receptors less strongly than estradiol, the net effect could be anti-estrogenic. Which may or may not be beneficial.

[KryptonStratos]

Phytoestrogens aren't necessarily harmful, are they? If a phytoestrogen can displace estradiol at various receptors but stimulate those receptors less strongly than estradiol, the net effect could be anti-estrogenic. Which may or may not be beneficial.

I have actually not seen one study stating that is true. If you can direct me to the study, id be more than happy to give it my time. Regardless, there are already many many studies out there pertaining to phytoestrogens and male/female hormone levels. There were a good amount of studies done on male hormone levels and soy intake (high in phytoestrogens). Most, if not all of them came back negative. Majority of the bloodwork came back with higher estrogen, and lower testosterone than before. I can post the link to all these studies if you would like me to. There are also many reports of men who begin consuming soy that experience sensitive nipples and/or gyno, Its all over the bodybuilding forums. There are also many studies indicating an increase in estrogen in post menopausal women. If you do some googleing youll come to find phytoestrogens are highly recommended for post menopausal women. There are also many studies done on the negative effects of phytoestrogens on females with breast cancer. Many females that have this issue tend to go on a strict phytoestrogen free diet.

So basically what im saying is the majoirty of studies done indicate an increase in estrogen, not the opposite. There may be some out there that indeed do indicate anti estrogenic properties (probably very few), but i have yet to come across them. My opinion is that there is already plenty of studies done that all come to the same result. So i think its safe to draw your own conclusions.

Heres the link to soy intake and male hormone levels if youre interested.

http://forum.bodybui...ad.php?t=698242

Also, if you would like to see the studies on phytoestrogens and women with breast cancer/post menopausal women, google either "phytoestrogens post menopausal ncbi" or "phytoestrogens breast cancer ncbi"

Edited by Bieberhole69, 01 November 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[_alex_]

I would not cut out any herbals since I'm a big believer in herbs and they contain a lot of phytochemicals and nutrients themselves. Find a good supplier that you can get your herbs organic in a bulk powder form, not capsules. I use indigo herbs but that is UK based. I would cut out most vitamin and mineral supplements in favor of eating better, get proper veggies, nuts, fruit, meat/fish etc daily and you don't need these. Get a juicer, cannot recommend this enough, solves the need for multivitamins. Get a hemp protein powder (contain most amino acids and omegas, you can remove fish oil for this) and supplement extra BCAA's as needed when working out.

Add Eleuthero to your stack, this is a great adaptogen for workout/bodybuilding. Cycle Rhodiola with Mucuna Pruriens (source of L-dopa, boosts testosterone also). Gotu Kola is not preferred long term from what I read. Do you really need Valerian, Passionflower, Melantonin and Ashwagandha daily? They are all good for sleep but I find Ashwagandha is enough for this by itself (my favorite adaptogen).

Edited by _alex_, 13 November 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[Indigodoll]

Wow, that's a heavy herbal stack! I get a good bit of those in on a daily basis myself but I'm glad to see someone has me beat! I'm still a newbie though, so I'm adding more things a bit slower now since I have a little regimin that is working. I do plan to rev up my fitness goals so it helps to see what someone else is doing with herbal stacks. I recognize the BCAA's from my other non herbal supplements (protein shakes, etc) but I'm still learning when to take what.

Wow, that's a heavy herbal stack! I get a good bit of those in on a daily basis myself but I'm glad to see someone has me beat! I'm still a newbie though, so I'm adding more things a bit slower now since I have a little regimin that is working. I do plan to rev up my fitness goals so it helps to see what someone else is doing with herbal stacks. I recognize the BCAA's from my other non herbal supplements (protein shakes, etc) but I'm still learning when to take what.

[_alex_]

I forgot this yesterday as well: Cordyceps Sinensis , for workout/bodybuilding. Really great. I take a multiple mushroom supplement daily from Fungi Perfecti, contains cordyceps, reishi, maiitake, chaga among others so great for overall health and longevity. If I could only take one supplement that would be it.

[Indigodoll]

What do you notice about the Cordyceps for your workout? That ingredient is in my Isagenix Isagreens drink mix, but I don't know the qty/amount. I just started using creatine a few months ago (Vitacost Aro pre-work out) and its been a God Send for me personally for working out. Its probably lightweight for hardcore athletes, but I love what it does.

[_alex_]

What do you notice about the Cordyceps for your workout? That ingredient is in my Isagenix Isagreens drink mix, but I don't know the qty/amount. I just started using creatine a few months ago (Vitacost Aro pre-work out) and its been a God Send for me personally for working out. Its probably lightweight for hardcore athletes, but I love what it does.

It helps with fatigue and stress when recovering and also when overtraining. Right now the multi Fungi Perfecti supplement I use I don't notice it like that since there is only 100mg Cordyceps in it in each serving. 15 different Mushrooms in total so it has a more overall effect on my energy, wellbeing and immune system. You should check out the TED talk from Paul Stamets about mushrooms.

I really like creatine as well. I'm a vegetarian and for vegetarians/vegans it also increases cognition.

[Adaptogen]

i take 5 grams of cordyceps daily and don't notice anything from it, but i couldn't say that it isn't doing anything. however, i don't think any studies have shown it to increase strength or even testosterone in healthy, young animals. still, it tastes pretty good as far as powders go and i'll continue to take it, and possibly purchase another pound.

[_alex_]

2.1. Fatigue


150-300mg/kg of the hot water extract of the Mycelia of Cordyceps Sinensis to rats orally (mostly carbohydrates), the time it took for rats to become fatigued during a swimming test increased to a similar degree with both doses and was approximately (value derived form graph) a 12.5% increase.[20]

2.2. Stress


Consumption of 150mg/kg of a hot water extract for a week in rats is associated with a lessening of biochemical markers of stress with reduction in total cholesterol (effectively normalized to non-stress control) and attenuations of the decline in the weight of the spleen (24%), adrenal (91%), and liver (37%).[20]

3.1. Testosterone


Cordyceps can reduce HcG and cAMP-stimulated steroidogenesis (via PKA and possibly inhibiting P450scc by 30%, the enzyme that converts cholesterol to pregnenolone).[21] This same study showed that Cordyceps did not reduce testosterone production when coincubated with androstenedione or pregnenolone, suggesting it does not influence enzymes in the later portion of steroidogenesis.[21] Interestingly, this study also showed that Cordyceps was able to inhibit Forskolin-induced steroidogenesis, which is cAMP-induced and how the herb Coleus forskohlii increases testosterone.[21]This inhibition of testosterone synthesis stimulated by cAMP and HcG has been noted elsewhere,[22][23] and inhibition of PKA abolishes the effects of Cordyceps.[24]

In cell stimulated at the Luteinizing Hormone (LH) receptor, which normally induces steroidogenesis via a cAMP-dependent pathway, the incubation of Cordyceps can suppress this cascade

In cells not intentionally stimulated with HcG, Corcyceps extract reliably increases testosterone secretions from cells with an ideal concentration of 3mg/mL, shown in two separate studies on dose-response.[15][22] Concentrations greater than 10mg/mL are associated with declines in testosterone related to baseline.[22] Protein fragments in Cordyceps have been implicated in being the active compounds[15] although Cordycepin appears to be active as well.[24] Feeding isolated Cordycepin at 40mg/kg bodyweight does not increase testosterone in vivo, however, yet it does when injected suggesting poor bioavailability.[24]

Had the opposite effects in cells note treated via the LH receptor, and may increase testosterone secretion in these scenarios

The mycelium of Cordyceps Militaris at 1 or 5% of their diet by weight was shown to increase circulating testosterone levels in rats after 6 weeks of supplementation. [25] During this period, bodyweight did not significantly differ between groups, sperm content of the epididymus increased by 53% and 37% respectively to the 1% and 5% diets and motility increased by 31% and 19%; serum testosterone was increased to around 700pg/mL relative to control fluctuating just below 600pg/mL over the 6 week period. The peaks were erratic and demonstrated a trend to significant differences at 2 weeks in the 5% group, declining to baseline at 5 weeks, and then spiking up again to be significantly different at 6-8 weeks; 1% intake was relatively stable up to 5 weeks were it trended upwards and remained significantly different from control until cessation at 8 weeks.[25] Another study conducted in immature mice (without the influence of Luteinizing hormone, to stimulate central hypogonadism) found that 0.02-0.2g/kg bodyweight increased circulating testosterone relatively equally (3.83 and 3.69ng/ml, respectively) from a baseline level of 1.38+/-0.047ng/mL[15] while isolated water-soluble protein fragments required an intake of 0.2g/kg bodyweight.[15] Despite these studies being in immature rats, one study suggests that there are no differences in testosterone synthesis in immature and mature.[26]
More dramatic spikes are seen with intraperitoneal injections of cordycepin, which exhibits does-dependent increases in testosterone. 40mg/kg bodyweight over 7 days has been shown in mice to increase testosterone from 2.88+/-0.19pg/uL to 10.97+/-2.31pg/uL.[24] This spike was vicariously through an upregulation of A2a adenosine receptors (3-7 fold increase) with a concomitant decrease in A2b recpetor content.[24] Co-incubation with an A2a receptor antagonist (in this study, CSC was used; Caffeine is a popular A2a antagonist) reduced the increase in testosterone by 20%, but inhibition of A3 reduced it by 50%.[24] The ultimate effect of Cordycepin is that it upregulates the StAR enzyme, which transporters cholesterol into the mitochondria for metabolism, a rate-limiting step of steroidogenesis.

Cordyceps appears to increase testosterone synthesis in rats, and has multiple compounds that could do this (protein fragments, Cordycepin); the protein fragments appear to be biologically relevant, as 40mg/kg Cordycepin ingested orally didn't do anything to testosterone in mice yet 0.2mg/kg whole Cordyceps did. Cordyceps may possess testosterone regulatory properties, rather than blind spiking of testosterone

http://examine.com/s...ents/Cordyceps/

Rat model of course so not sure it works like that in humans, but there is not enough human studies on it.

Edited by _alex_, 19 November 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Adaptogen]

oh yeah, cordyceps certainly has numerous health properties. but I dont know if i would consider it anabolic. at least judging from the results of this study: http://www.ergo-log....dybuilders.html

[timar]

Growth factors (Igf-1, TGF beta-2, EGF, PDGF)

That's a very good supplement to take - if you want to shorten your life expectancy...

[gt35r]

"BCAA's (glutamine, leucine, valine, isoleucine, alanine, lysine, arginine, glycine, histidine, tyrosine, cysteine, methionine, phenylalanine, proline, serine, aspartic acid, theronine, tryptophan)"

Luecine, Isoleucine, and valine are the only Branched Chain Amino Acids

Glutamine,alanine, glycine,arginine,histidine,glycine,tryorosine... are not BCAA,

[KryptonStratos]

I would not cut out any herbals since I'm a big believer in herbs and they contain a lot of phytochemicals and nutrients themselves. Find a good supplier that you can get your herbs organic in a bulk powder form, not capsules. I use indigo herbs but that is UK based. I would cut out most vitamin and mineral supplements in favor of eating better, get proper veggies, nuts, fruit, meat/fish etc daily and you don't need these. Get a juicer, cannot recommend this enough, solves the need for multivitamins. Get a hemp protein powder (contain most amino acids and omegas, you can remove fish oil for this) and supplement extra BCAA's as needed when working out.

Add Eleuthero to your stack, this is a great adaptogen for workout/bodybuilding. Cycle Rhodiola with Mucuna Pruriens (source of L-dopa, boosts testosterone also). Gotu Kola is not preferred long term from what I read. Do you really need Valerian, Passionflower, Melantonin and Ashwagandha daily? They are all good for sleep but I find Ashwagandha is enough for this by itself (my favorite adaptogen).

The majority of the herbs i supplement with are in the liquid form, ive read a good amount of information showing the benefits of the liquid form of herbs vs the dry form. All of my herbs except for the bacopa and gotu kola are from a company called gaia herbs. Bacopa and gotu is from herb pharm. And about multivitamins, i find it much more convenient to supplement your vitamins rather than get them from food sources. I know its probably a better idea to get them from food sources, but im one of those people who doesnt really care too much to be honest lol. You also dont really know how much of each vitamin you will be getting with veggies. And about hemp protien, i prefer a mix of whey isolate and casien (fast digesting and slow digesting). The casien gives you a constant flow of bcaas/protein throughout the day and while you sleep, while the whey acts almost immideatley. The whey i get is 100% natural, nothing added.

About the eleurethro, i actually used to supplement with it, until i found out about its estrogenic properties. From what i read, its mostly used as a libido enhancer. I havent seen too much about its adaptogenic properties. And about cycling rhodiola, i have never cycled it, nor really seen the need to. The benefits it gave me from day 1 i still expieriance to this day. But about that Mucuna, it seems like a solid herb and i may have to do some research on it and possibly add it to my stack.

I recently just cut out the valerian, california poppy, chamomile, and lemon balm from my sleep stack. I find passionflower works pretty well, and it also inhibits aromatase so thats a plus. I take the melatonin for a growth hormone boost during sleep.

Anyways, from the replies so far, it doesnt really seem like theres anything wrong with my stack, which was my original question, so thanks for all the replies everyone, peace.

[_alex_]

Everything is better in it's natural state when it comes to herbs. Liquid form might be easier to digest and in bigger amounts but reduced extracts might lose part of active compounds and introduce additives. That is just what happens when you tamper with stuff to concentrate it.

You can't OD on vitamins or minerals in what you eat, supplementing to much multivitamins or alike can be bad for your health. Veggies contain phytonutrients which you cannot get in your multivitamin. I could go on but since you already made up your mind... :P

About Eleuthero there is data supporting it's use in strenuous aerobic activity among other things. I have not read much more then that it has estrogen similar compounds in it but that does not mean it works the same way, a google search did not turn up much what you are suggesting. I just know it is one of the most praised and researched adaptogenic herbs. But yeah if you fear estrogen for whatever reason then skip it I guess.

http://examine.com/s...sus/#summary4-0

Edited by _alex_, 20 November 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[kurdishfella]

why didn't you mention the steroids you take?