LONGECITY

Most multis seem to have the synthetic folic acid.

The LEF Two-per-day I recommended as the better alternative to your single vitamin approach contain natural folate from lemon peel.

This comes with my sublingual vitamin b12, 400mcg folic acid (common dose of this in most multis). I think I read that it's for the absorption of b12 sublingually. Folic acid is said to be cancerous even at low dosage of 1 mg:

Folic acid doesn't improve absorption of B12. This belongs to the kind of nonsensical marketing claims many manufacturers make, which is why...

Isn't it just best to follow directions that's written on the back of the vitamin bottle? I doubt Spring Valley vitamin (Walmart brand) would put out anything that can cause issues with people. I am taking their 5000 IU Vitamin D3 max potency, which is saying that it's tolerable otherwise they would not sell it. The direction is to take 1 capsule daily.

...one shouldn't rely on their instructions. In this case, 5000 IU is a safe amount. As a rule of thumb: manufacturers wouldn't put out anything that would cause serious short-term issues (if only because they don't want to be sued) but most of them coudn't care less about possibe long-term adverse effects. It more than five years since it has been shown that high-dose isolated alpha-tocopherol causes more harm than good for most poeple. However, if you get cancer after taking 800 IU daily for ten years, there's no way to prove that is has been the supplement that actually caused the cancer. That's why they still sell those megadose vitamin E supplements everywhere.

Regarding the talk about calcification; is this only possible with supplemental calcium or calcium we get from daily meals especially with cheeses and milk which usually has 20% to 30% daily value of calcium, per serving. Would supplementing with RAW calcium be better than other types of calcium? I saw a RAW calcium supplement, not sure if that was just marketing, another nickname for another calcium or it really exist.

The evidence is stronger for supplemental calcium, although there are strong reasons to assume that too much calcium from any source (dietary und supplemental) causes increased risk of calcification.

WTF is RAW calcium? This is the most ludicrous marketing nonesense I have ever heard. They probably made up that term to sell their overpriced shit to gullible raw foodists. Excuse the explicit language, but this is just totally ridiculous.

Mercola is a superfan of Vitamin-D and has some interesting writing on the subject. He states the vitamin-D you get from sunlight is superior to vitamin-D from supplements as your body produces "vitamin-D sulphate" which D-3 supplements do not provide.

I have a simple rule I follow in discussions of health related topics: If someone starts to refer to Mercola or Natural News I quit any further discussion. Mercola is a disgusting snakeoil salesman and you can't trust anything he says or writes. It is a muddy concoction of factual information, speculation, FUD and general paranoia designed only to con money out of your pocket.

Yes, higher folate levels have been linked to leukemia and colon cancer risk. However high homocysteine levels have been linked to cardiovascular risk. Pick your poison.

There is quite a difference between those. Homocysteine is an established cardiovacular risk factor. Excess folic acid, on the other hand, is not associated to increased risk of any cancer in the most recent and comprehensive meta-analysis. But we have already discussed that at the first page of this very topic!

are the vitamins in cereals "added" meaning the cereal itself does not have those vitamins by default but it was added? Most of these cereals still have copper and iron. I thought I was free of those ever since i dumped my multi vitamin.

Are you kidding me? I suggest that you look up the definition of the word "added" in a dictionary. Besides, I have already thoroughly explained this very issue to you in this very topic. Maybe you should add some memory-enhancing nootropic to your supplement stack?

regarding "picolinate"; I was looking at getting zinc picolinate and chromium picolinate.

Again, for the last time: the Two-per-Day which I recommend at half dose contain neither copper nor iron, but other trace minerals in the most stabile in bioavailable forms available. You can't get a fraction of that value-for-money ratio from any combination of single supplements.

That's it. I'm out of this odd topic. I'm not going to act like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.
Edited by timar, 26 November 2013 - 11:18 AM.

Sorry we're stressing you out timar... This topic is a bit of a mish-mash, but I'm still learning from it.

Mercola does wander off into Wonderland more often than I would like, but there is still knowledge that can be gleaned from him. I never knew about the superiority of D-3 sulphate from sunlight, or that sun bathing in Southern California between the Fall and Spring Equinox did you no good at all.

Regarding the nutrition of breakfast cereals, YES, most all of the nutrition is "added" as a nutrient packet and the iron and copper are the nasty forms of these minerals. Youtube has some videos of people demonstrating the amount of iron in cereal with magnets. Its in almost everything (flour, pasta, rice) and causes buildup of iron, particularly in males over time. The "iron age" of food supplementation may be good for menstruating females, but it's killing older men. Bloodletting or IP6 are the only known cures.

Get thee to a blood bank!

One reason folate supplements come with B12 is that high folate intakes (> 5 mg/d), while non toxic, can mask early signs of B12 deficiency (like pernicious anemia), preventing their diagnosis and treatment before advanced B12 deficiency ravages the nervous system.

Folate, as a methyl donor, both prevents unrepaired mutations and strand breaks in cancer initiation, and is a limiting nutrient for DNA duplication in cancer proliferation.

Which is a pity because folate appears to be a potent scavenger of peroxynitrite radicals, its intracellular levels can be markedly increased by supplementation, and low levels of folate, with homocysteine as mere marker may be responsible for the association of elevated homocysteine with atherosclerosis.

Food folate, 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (5-MTHF), unlike folic acid, should be rate-limited by methionine remethylation in becoming tetrahydrofolate (THF) for purine and pyrimidine synthesis for DNA. I'd love to see a study of THF levels and purine/pyrimidine synthesis under conditions of high 5-MTHF and high betaine (BHMT provides a non-folate cycle pathway for methionine remethylation), and no folic acid. If THF levels could be moderated, then there would be an option for increasing peroxynitrate quenching without also promoting existing cancers.

High dose liquid 5-MTHF and betaine are available as supplements. Moreover, a diet high in greens (esp spinach) and beets provides both.



Edited by Darryl, 26 November 2013 - 07:18 PM.

5-MTHF is also available in pill form, but it is still rare. (Merck brand name again: Metafolin. Another brand name: Deplin. Chemical name: levomefolic acid.) Purines should still be fine since 5-MTHF will be demethylated to THF, but still, it's nearly impossible to have a diet free of folates. Reduced purine synthesis might be beneficial in some cases regardless, e.g. in gout.

Cancers can also be starved of methionine if you really want to - but then you do not get enough SAM and that has been linked with other disorders. This is actually the mechanism of folate levels interaction with cancers - indirect. Methionine reduced diet has been linked to lower occurence of cancers as it directly acts on the levels of SAM and thus endpoint - DNA methylation.
It actually has been tried (both methionine suppl. and 5-MTHF) in some cancers with success, as SAM will engage certain tumor suppresors, which otherwise could be quiescent. So I'd say it really depends on the kind of cancer.

Homocysteine can be recycled via MTR (given B12) or MTA (given methyl donors) or via glutathione (but that's a real waste, glutathione has way more important uses).
Edited by AstralStorm, 26 November 2013 - 08:10 PM.

wait, so IP6 removes iron? and zinc depletes copper and other metals, except magnesium? From what I read somewhere. I know about the use of malic acid to remove metals from the brain and body. the bulk powder I am taking Inositol Hexaphosphate is another name for IP6 and phytic acid. I take 12g of this a day mostly for depression issues and OCD it would have to be at 18g. I do ok with 12g daily.

Still wondering if the raw cereal someone here mentioned does NOT come with "added' multi vitamin gimmick. I still like cereals for breakfast but just realized these commercial brands usually have 10g of sugar or more per serving, I just looked at the box of Honey Combs. Chromium picolinate is said to be a GTF (Glucose Tolerance Factor), which I just bought so I can see what it does while I eat something with heavy sugars. LOL.

Sorry we're stressing you out timar... This topic is a bit of a mish-mash, but I'm still learning from it.

Mercola does wander off into Wonderland more often than I would like, but there is still knowledge that can be gleaned from him. I never knew about the superiority of D-3 sulphate from sunlight, or that sun bathing in Southern California between the Fall and Spring Equinox did you no good at all.

Regarding the nutrition of breakfast cereals, YES, most all of the nutrition is "added" as a nutrient packet and the iron and copper are the nasty forms of these minerals. Youtube has some videos of people demonstrating the amount of iron in cereal with magnets. Its in almost everything (flour, pasta, rice) and causes buildup of iron, particularly in males over time. The "iron age" of food supplementation may be good for menstruating females, but it's killing older men. Bloodletting or IP6 are the only known cures.

Get thee to a blood bank!

Edited by eon, 27 November 2013 - 11:08 AM.

wait, so IP6 removes iron? the bulk powder I am taking Inositol Hexaphosphate is nother name for IP6 and phytic acid. I take 12g of this a day mostly for depression issues and OCD it would have to be at 18g. I do ok with 12g daily.

Umm, you confused IP6 with Myo-inositol. The later is used upto 18 g for example for OCD issues. IP6 or phytic acid is taken away from food in much lower amounts for reduction of iron.

Stop the IP6 immediately and check your blood minerals and replenish them, if you've taken 12 g/d of it for some time.
Edited by pamojja, 27 November 2013 - 11:12 AM.

wait, so IP6 removes iron? the bulk powder I am taking Inositol Hexaphosphate is nother name for IP6 and phytic acid. I take 12g of this a day mostly for depression issues and OCD it would have to be at 18g. I do ok with 12g daily.

Umm, you confused IP6 with Myo-inositol. The later is used upto 18 g for example for OCD issues. IP6 or phytic acid is taken away from food in much lower amounts for reduction of iron.

Stop the IP6 immediately and check your blood minerals and replenish them, if you've taken 12 g/d of it for some time.

Good grief. Eon, can you provide a link to the inositol product that you are using?
Edited by blood, 27 November 2013 - 11:43 AM.

Inositol Hexaphosphate is IP6 (hex = Greek for 6)... I think Myo-inositol is IP3 (something like that). IP6 only removes iron/copper from the body when its taken on an empty stomach. When taken with food, it binds (primarally) macro-minerals (calcium/magnesium) and some iron/copper/zinc from food in the stomach, but gets too loaded up with these to do much chelation in the body.

When taken on an empty stomach, IP6 enters the blood intact, and mops up free/serum iron and copper much more effectively. It will also bind to mag/cal in serum/plasma, but these macro-minerals are present at much lower levels in the blood and are quickly replaced from from dietary sources. Thus, dietary phytate (or IP6 with meals) = anti-nutrient, while IP6 on empty stomach = heavy metal (iron/copper) chelator.

I believe IP6 eventually gets metabolized to lower forms (IP3/Myo-inositol), so if you're taking IP6, you are also getting myo-inositol. Not firm on all my facts here, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Edited by synesthesia, 27 November 2013 - 03:29 PM.

http://healthsupplem...oducts/inositol

So what I really should have been taking was myo-inositol, not inositol hexaphosphate? So all the foods and supplements I had been taking had been wiped out is what is being said here? I did take the inositol after I had just eaten along with the other supplements I took, so not on an empty stomach. Anyway I had contacted the seller of inositol hexaphosphate and they had told me they will have a myo-inositol product coming soon.

The serving directions of the inositol hexaphosphate suggested 500mg twice daily, and some could take a few grams a day. I guess the seller also confused it for myo-inositol hence is why they are going to stock myo-inositol soon. LOL.

I don't feel unwell though. I feel ok. Maybe it's because my single vitamins had been high-dosed? I split 12g of inositol hexaphosphate 3x a day.

wait, so IP6 removes iron? the bulk powder I am taking Inositol Hexaphosphate is nother name for IP6 and phytic acid. I take 12g of this a day mostly for depression issues and OCD it would have to be at 18g. I do ok with 12g daily.

Umm, you confused IP6 with Myo-inositol. The later is used upto 18 g for example for OCD issues. IP6 or phytic acid is taken away from food in much lower amounts for reduction of iron.

Stop the IP6 immediately and check your blood minerals and replenish them, if you've taken 12 g/d of it for some time.

Good grief. Eon, can you provide a link to the inositol product that you are using?

Edited by eon, 28 November 2013 - 12:41 PM.

synesthesia, I think inositol is inositol, it's just some forms have different chemical structures or potency? Like different types magnesium are more bioavailable than other forms. But I'd still go for the most potent forms, so for OCD it should have been myo-inositol, and not inositol hexaphosphate.

D3
k2
ZINC
Melatonin
Choline
B-12
Folate
sAME

So what I really should have been taking was myo-inositol, not inositol hexaphosphate? So all the foods and supplements I had been taking had been wiped out is what is being said here?

Probably there has been some binding of other essentials minerals. Not necessarily. If by that you've developed a severe magnesium deficiency, for example, you could feel cramps, depending also how long you took the IP6. That's why I recommended to check blood minerals.

I take 500 mg IP6/ day with my polyphenols first thing in the morning. (There is some evidence IP6 can increase absorption of certain polyphenols.) 12 gm/day seems kinda... extreme.

IP6: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Phytic_acid
Edited by blood, 28 November 2013 - 01:37 PM.

curious which type of b12 is best? Mine is sublingual b 12 (cyanocobalamin). Is methylcobalamin supposed to be better? I've seen B complex vitamins that are sublingual but not sure if anyone really needs that when B 12 is really that's only needed as sublingual as some people can't absorb b12 orally. I've seen sublingual b12 at high dose like 5000mcg which has both types of b12 (methylco/cyanoco). I take the 1000mcg version.

By the way I have cut down on my 5000 IU vitamin D3, from daily to every other day just to see how it goes.

I read in a book that 9.04 mg of vitamin d becomes toxic. 5000 IU of vitamin D is rather low in mg (.12499997 mg) if I'm not mistaken.
Edited by eon, 28 November 2013 - 03:49 PM.

I supplement with magnesium aspartate 200mg daily. I just stopped my inositol hexaphosphate today. I cycled on and off it since September of this year, so about 3 months off and on though. I think the longest I was on it was over a month then off for about a week or two.

So what I really should have been taking was myo-inositol, not inositol hexaphosphate? So all the foods and supplements I had been taking had been wiped out is what is being said here?

Probably there has been some binding of other essentials minerals. Not necessarily. If by that you've developed a severe magnesium deficiency, for example, you could feel cramps, depending also how long you took the IP6. That's why I recommended to check blood minerals.

the seller should've just called that type of inositol, IP6 or phytic acid. LOL. If that's really what is was. I thought I was taking the "right" inositol for depression (12g daily is recommended), and for OCD (18g). The inositol I took seem to have worked though.

I take 500 mg IP6/ day with my polyphenols first thing in the morning. (There is some evidence IP6 can increase absorption of certain polyphenols.) 12 gm/day seems kinda... extreme.

IP6: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Phytic_acid

If you think that the available literature on long chain omega-3s is inconsistent (which it is), than I wonder what you would call the literature on multivitamins. The data on omega-3s is neat and consistent compared with the completely messed-up way most epidemiological studies take record of multivitamins. Now what to do, when we have a host of widely inconsistent, low quality studies? We should watch out for at least a single well done, methodologically sound study with sufficient statistical power to draw meaningfull conclusions from that study alone. In this case, we do now have such a study. It is the multivitamin RCT arm of the Physicians' Health Study II. Here we have a large (n=14,641) and at the same time very homogenous population that (by its profession) is exceptionally health conscious and well nourished, physically active and largely abstinent from smoking and exessive alcohol use. Moreover, we have a unequalled medium follow-up of 11.2 years, in which the participants took the multivitamin formula vs placebo. The results: a modest decrease in risk of cancer (HR: 0.92, P=0.04) and a non-significant reduction in all-cause mortality risk (HR: 0.94, P=0.13) - despite that the Centrum Silver formula used has been far from optimal, as it contained 4mg iron and 2mg copper.

If you add to that study the results of a very well done epidemiological study, taking into account the "sick-user bias" which severely distorted previous epidemiological studies on supplements, and this finding of increased telomere length in woman who took multivitamin supplements, I think we can make a pretty strong case for a comprehensive low to moderate dose multivitamin supplement.

PS. Regarding the case for multivitamins I made above: I forgot to add this recent study on multivitamins and breast cancer risk. Also, see the work of Bruce Ames for sound theoretical explanations why multivitamins may protect against cancer and other age-related diseaes and a nutrigenetic rationale for the intake of supra-RDA B vitamins.

We can add another two studies, which have just been published this month. The one is a finding from the above mentioned Pysicians' Health Study II RCT that the multivitamin significantly reduced the risk of cataract, the other an epidemiological finding from the Nurses' Health Study II that multivitamin use is siginificantly associated with lower risk of colorectal cancer. Thus the evidence from high quality studies - RTCs and epidemiological - mounts in favor of Ames' Triage Theory. This is exactly what is to be expected from that theory - a modest but significant reduction of cancer and other age related diseases in well-nourished populations.

Timar, not sure if you've read the latest issue of Life Extension but they have an article there regarding Milk Thistle becoming more bioavailable when taking it with phosphatidyl choline (PC). I do take both. The PC comes with my Phosphatidyl Serine complex supplement. I was surprised that some company who sells nootropics labeled Milk Thistle "natural nootropic". I had no idea it was even for the mind at all.

the seller should've just called that type of inositol, IP6 or phytic acid. LOL. If that's really what is was. I thought I was taking the "right" inositol for depression (12g daily is recommended), and for OCD (18g). The inositol I took seem to have worked though.

I don't think HealthWholesalers know what they are doing. I could give examples.

I think Swanson are a safer choice, and they are almost as cheap:

Here is the IP6 that I use:
http://www.swansonvi...R086&csp=SWU286

They also sell the form of inositol/ myo-inositol that you wanted, in powder form:
http://www.swansonvi...-227-grams-pwdr
Edited by blood, 02 December 2013 - 10:56 AM.

the seller should've just called that type of inositol, IP6 or phytic acid. LOL. If that's really what is was. I thought I was taking the "right" inositol for depression (12g daily is recommended), and for OCD (18g). The inositol I took seem to have worked though.

I don't think HealthWholesalers know what they are doing. I could give examples.

I think Swanson are a safer choice, and they are almost as cheap:

Here is the IP6 that I use:
http://www.swansonvi...R086&csp=SWU286

They also sell the form of inositol/ myo-inositol that you wanted, in powder form:
http://www.swansonvi...-227-grams-pwdr

I've tried many supplements from Swanson now, and I get the feeling they don't put in the capsule what they write on the bottle. They have zero potency for me, all supplements I usually get instant results from don't do squat from Swanson. Hyaluronic acid, Carnosine, R-Lipoic acid and Coenzymated B complex being some of them.

I've tried many supplements from Swanson now, and I get the feeling they don't put in the capsule what they write on the bottle. They have zero potency for me, all supplements I usually get instant results from don't do squat from Swanson. Hyaluronic acid, Carnosine, R-Lipoic acid and Coenzymated B complex being some of them.

Unlike some popular brands, I've never seen Swanson's fail a ConsumerLab's test...ever.

And to claim that you've obtained some kind of "instant" results from any of the supplements listed (or any supplement for that matter) from any brand is ridiculous. The only instant results that would be perceivable (instantly) would be placebo.

I've tried many supplements from Swanson now, and I get the feeling they don't put in the capsule what they write on the bottle. They have zero potency for me, all supplements I usually get instant results from don't do squat from Swanson. Hyaluronic acid, Carnosine, R-Lipoic acid and Coenzymated B complex being some of them.

Unlike some popular brands, I've never seen Swanson's fail a ConsumerLab's test...ever.

And to claim that you've obtained some kind of "instant" results from any of the supplements listed (or any supplement for that matter) from any brand is ridiculous. The only instant results that would be perceivable (instantly) would be placebo.

Try taking Hyaluronic acid yourself, take about 15-35 caps a day like I do, and watch your skin shine like it has never done before, within max a day or two.

Anyway, to each their own.

I've tried many supplements from Swanson now, and I get the feeling they don't put in the capsule what they write on the bottle. They have zero potency for me, all supplements I usually get instant results from don't do squat from Swanson. Hyaluronic acid, Carnosine, R-Lipoic acid and Coenzymated B complex being some of them.

Unlike some popular brands, I've never seen Swanson's fail a ConsumerLab's test...ever.

And to claim that you've obtained some kind of "instant" results from any of the supplements listed (or any supplement for that matter) from any brand is ridiculous. The only instant results that would be perceivable (instantly) would be placebo.

Try taking Hyaluronic acid yourself, take about 15-35 caps a day like I do, and watch your skin shine like it has never done before, within max a day or two.

Anyway, to each their own.

You stated:

I've tried many supplements from Swanson now, and I get the feeling they don't put in the capsule what they write on the bottle. They have zero potency for me, all supplements I usually get instant results from don't do squat from Swanson. Hyaluronic acid, Carnosine, R-Lipoic acid and Coenzymated B complex being some of them.

And I repeat:

Unlike some popular brands, I've never seen Swanson's fail a ConsumerLab's test...ever.

Show some real proof if you're going to make wild claims as the evidence is against you.

And your claim of skin shine "within max a day or two" is once again entirely anecdotal and most likely placebo. Skin structure doesn't heal and regrow in a day or two even if you imagine it. But placebo can be a powerful cure.

I've tried many supplements from Swanson now, and I get the feeling they don't put in the capsule what they write on the bottle. They have zero potency for me, all supplements I usually get instant results from don't do squat from Swanson. Hyaluronic acid, Carnosine, R-Lipoic acid and Coenzymated B complex being some of them.

I have suspected that of Swanson at times. But recently, I have been taking their 250g niacinamide. I can feel a certain warmth creep into me between half an hour and two hours after taking it, and a nice cosy sense of well-being. I keep a careful record of things like this, and I am sure it is not placebo--particularly as those effects are not what I am taking it for (I am taking it for arthritis). This has reassured me that Swanson do provide what they say.
Edited by Gerrans, 02 December 2013 - 09:14 PM.

Niacin is supposed to do that? Even with non-flush niacin (niacinamide)? I thought the real niacin (nicotinic acid) would be able to do that, that "warmth" you described (could be the "flushing")?

D3
k2
ZINC
Melatonin
Choline
B-12
Folate
sAME

My suggestion is based off of having a balanced average diet.

D3
k2
ZINC
Melatonin
Choline
B-12
Folate
sAME

My suggestion is based off of having a balanced average diet.

No magnesium?
Edited by blood, 03 December 2013 - 08:23 AM.

is nattokinase similar to K2? They both come from natto? Similar purpose for bloodflow. Not sure why nattokinase isn't called vitamin K2, MK7.

Niacin is supposed to do that? Even with non-flush niacin (niacinamide)? I thought the real niacin (nicotinic acid) would be able to do that, that "warmth" you described (could be the "flushing")?

Niacin gives a flush, yes, but niacinamide, in my experience, gives a much gentler warmth, which with a 250 mg Swanson pill is quite palpable.

If anyone reading this has trouble with cold in the fingers, I would say try niacinamide; I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Edited by Gerrans, 03 December 2013 - 12:16 PM.

I just started supplementing with citric acid. I bought 1kg really cheap so not sure what to use this much for. I decided to try it out today with my new scale as well. The seller's website recommended the dose of 10mg to 30mg, yet on the actual product's packaging suggested 500mg to 2g daily. I'm experimenting either way. All I know is that citric acid chelates and binds to other stuff. You sometimes will see citric acid in vitamin C products as well as candies and sodas. I guess it binds well with vitamin C. It removes metals from the body as well from what I read. My new scale read 0.010 g, is this 10mg? I started at a low dose to see how it's like.
Edited by eon, 03 December 2013 - 02:11 PM.