73 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

Opipramol without any reasonable doubt. It's awesome.

Can you explain or qualify "awesome"?

Well, it WORKS, and it does so quickly, reliably and as far as I can tell without any developement of noticable tolerance.
Some pretty noticable sedation after the first few dosages. This wears off over time and leaves back a very clean anxiolysis and mood elevation.

Anyone know a supplier?

That seems to be the problem as you are from the US. I have no idea why it's not in use there. It's actually the most prescribed psychiatric drug in Germany and for good reason in my opinion.
I have only limited experience with trimipramine, but it's the closest thing to opipramol I used yet and might be worth a try.

[Reformed-Redan]

Opipramol without any reasonable doubt. It's awesome.

Can you explain or qualify "awesome"?

Well, it WORKS, and it does so quickly, reliably and as far as I can tell without any developement of noticable tolerance.
Some pretty noticable sedation after the first few dosages. This wears off over time and leaves back a very clean anxiolysis and mood elevation.

Anyone know a supplier?

That seems to be the problem as you are from the US. I have no idea why it's not in use there. It's actually the most prescribed psychiatric drug in Germany and for good reason in my opinion.
I have only limited experience with trimipramine, but it's the closest thing to opipramol I used yet and might be worth a try.

Wow, what is the generic cost for Opipramol? I'd be interested in procuring some if possible. Any online German pharmacies that it can be purchased from?

[datrat]

Try Aurapharm. I believe it is where I got some to try. My problem with opipramol is that it is a sigma (IIRC) 2 agonist as a tricyclic AD, with the normal anti-histamine/cholinergic TCA effects, but with no other re-uptake properties. My problem was that I was trying to augment an SNRI with it and, I believe, the sigma agonism potentiated serotonin too much and made me incredibly angry. On it's own it may be a great AD, but I didn't want to depend on one overseas pharmacy as my AD supplier.

[Dolph]

Wow, what is the generic cost for Opipramol? I'd be interested in procuring some if possible. Any online German pharmacies that it can be purchased from?

It's really cheap, as it's an old drug by now. 100 generic tablets of 100mg are roughly 20 euros. (You would need about 2 to 3 of these a day, later maybe less.)
I pretty much doubt you will find a German online pharmacy that will ship it without a prescription but you never know...
On the other hand it's very easy to get a prescription for it in Germany. Doctors like to prescribe it as a non habit forming alternative to tranquilzers and if you tell them you feel depressed and anxious you get it without much of a second thought, especially from GPs. Not much unlikely you'd probably get a SSRI in the states. So if you know anyone going to Germany or anyone who stays here with the army it should be possible to get some.

Edited by Dolph, 02 January 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Dolph]

My problem with opipramol is that it is a sigma (IIRC) 2 agonist as a tricyclic AD, with the normal anti-histamine/cholinergic TCA effects, but with no other re-uptake properties. My problem was that I was trying to augment an SNRI with it

Yeah, that probably wasn't such a great idea. Even though opipramol has not much reuptake inhibitory activity it works good on it's own for depression. There is more to AD activity than reuptake inhibition.

[Hip]

For your high anxiety symptoms, the supplements and medications detailed on this thread may work wonders:

Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

In particular, many people say that the N-acetyl-glucosamine supplements is very effective for anxiety. I had severe anxiety bordering on psychosis for several years (extreme anxiety is known to precipitate some psychosis), but pretty much eliminated all my anxiety using the supplements listed on the above thread.

[dunbar]

@ Hip

How did you come up with this stack?
And how do you know if this is really safe and if there are no supplement - supplement or supplement - drug interactions?
I'd be scared of taking so many supplements and then even taking antipsychotics.
And what about the high dose Vitamin A? Afaik only 10.000 IU per day are safe.
ANd how did you even find these supps? I never even heard of NAG.

• N-acetyl-glucosamine 1000 mg twice daily (the most potent anti-anxiety treatment)
• Flaxseed oil 1 tablespoon (15 ml) of this oil daily (taking more may cause diarrhea)
• Turmeric 1000 mg twice daily (not to be confused with curcumin)
• Low-dose amisulpride (an excellent atypical anti-psychotic drug) 12.5 to 25 mg daily
• Arginine pyroglutamate 1 heaped teaspoon (5 grams) twice daily
• Taurine 2 grams twice daily
• Citrulline malate 3 grams twice daily
• Vinpocetine 10 mg daily
• Vitamin A 25,000 IU daily

[Hip]

How did you come up with this stack?

Trial and error over a 6 year period, during which I constantly experienced severe and tortuous anxiety symptoms. I was desperate to find a solution, so I tried hundreds of supplements and a few drugs, and noted all the ones that had good anti-anxiety effects.

And how do you know if this is really safe and if there are no supplement - supplement or supplement - drug interactions?

I have never heard of supplement - supplement interactions. Can you name even just one such interaction?

If you are concerned about supplement - drug interactions, you can check for them of websites like this one.

And what about the high dose Vitamin A? Afaik only 10.000 IU per day are safe.

Yes, 25,000 IU of vitamin A is a little high (but the NOW Foods vitamin A I bought comes as 25,000 IU per capsule). If you are concerned about this dose, perhaps just drop the vitamin A.

ANd how did you even find these supps? I never even heard of NAG.

There are thousands of health websites that detail these supplements. There is no mystery about them. As mentioned I was desperate to find an answer for my severe anxiety disorder, so for years I spent hours each day researching online.



Incidentally, my anxiety disorder was caused by a virus I caught, and details of this virus are given on my website here.

Edited by Hip, 02 February 2014 - 06:19 AM.

[Keizo]

And how do you know if this is really safe and if there are no supplement - supplement or supplement - drug interactions?

I have never heard of supplement - supplement interactions. Can you name even just one such interaction?

If you are concerned about supplement - drug interactions, you can check for them of websites like this one.

It's all chemicals, you know. You can go and find many examples yourself. The definitions of "drug" and "supplement" tell me very little, especially since plenty of "supplements" become "drugs". If anything it being a "supplement" tells me that I might want to be extra careful since the only people doing any research on it might be complete fools and not top-scientists with a ton of money.

Edited by Nume, 02 February 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Hip]

It's all chemicals, you know. You can go and find many examples yourself. The definitions of "drug" and "supplement" tell me very little, especially since plenty of "supplements" become "drugs". If anything it being a "supplement" tells me that I might want to be extra careful since the only people doing any research on it might be complete fools and not top-scientists with a ton of money.

What a complete load a nonsense.

The reason certain compounds are made into prescription drugs is precisely because there is a far higher risk of developing serious side effects from them, compared to dietary supplements, and therefore these drugs need a physician to administer and monitor them.

[dunbar]

@ HIP

I don't have time to read everything you wrote on your site. It also scares me cause I also have some of those symptoms. I also have weird symptoms.
I also have issues with my vision,gums,joints,skin. I also noticed that just the past few days I have plaque build up on my teeth all the time! I have to brush
totally hard to even remove it. I don't understand this. I am now getting plaque at teeth where I never used to get plaque before.

I just want to know if you fear that you could have something like you have then what can you do? I bet if I go to my intern and tell him I worry about being infected
with something he'll just roll with his eyes.


Also the drug interaction site doesn't have supplements. I typed various herbs into it and nothing happened. This means you also cannot rule out
interactions between supps and drugs.

Edited by dunbar, 03 February 2014 - 12:53 AM.

[Hip]

@dunbar
That's because there aren't really any significant interactions between drugs and supplements. Who told you that there were?

Supplements are very safe, that is why they are on sale to the public without prescription.

If you think supplements are dangerous, what may I ask are you doing on this website? Most of this website is about taking supplements, and many people here devise their own supplement "stacks," involving the taking of sometimes dozens of supplements in combination, often mixed in with some drugs too.



Most doctors will not entertain the idea that your symptoms may be cause by a chronic infection, except those doctors who specialize in Lyme or ME/CFS, as these are conditions known to be driven by infections.

Edited by Hip, 03 February 2014 - 01:43 AM.

[dunbar]

@dunbar
That's because there aren't really any significant interactions between drugs and supplements. Who told you that there were?

Supplements are very safe, that is why they are on sale to the public without prescription.

No. Stuff which you can buy in the US as "supplement" is a prescription drug in other countries. Examples:
-Melatonin
-Tryptophan

And Tryptophan for example isn't totally safe especially when mixed with antidepressants.

Do you think that simply because some kind of crazy herb which you can buy as a supplement means it has to be safe? Come on.
This simply means that it's not used as prescription drug and that it has not undergone the tests which prescription drugs undergo which is
even a disadvantage. Saying just cause something is a supplement means it's safe is totally wrong.

[Hip]

Do you have this unwarranted fear of adverse consequences for everything, Dunbar, or is just supplements? For example, if a friend were to offer you a ride in their car, would you reply saying "but how do I know you will not crash?". Or if someone invites you to a restaurant, do you say to them "but how do I know that I won't get food poisoning?"

Seems that you are unduly fearful. Could your fears be related to you anxiety disorder, do you think?

Edited by Hip, 03 February 2014 - 03:13 AM.

[dunbar]

Of course being anxious makes it more difficult for me to simply take things.
But I don't think my concerns are unfounded.
There are supplemental herbs which have MAOI qualities. Now try mix such a "supplement" with a MAOI. I bet it would end ugly.

[Hip]

Well if you are afraid of dietary supplements, Dunbar, there is nothing that I can do to help you with your anxiety symptoms, since the treatment I used to successfully eliminate my severe anxiety disorder was supplement-based. Your fears are very unusual: you are the first person I have ever come across who has a trepidation regarding taking dietary supplements.

Though hopefully the information I provided here might be useful to other people suffering anxiety disorder.

Edited by Hip, 03 February 2014 - 03:31 AM.

[dunbar]

You get too hung up on the word supplement.
A lot which you can buy in the supermarket in the US isn't allowed in other countries.
I mean nobody even researches this. Do you think supplement companies do research wether
crazy herb XY does have any dangerous side effects or interactions with other drugs or
supplements? This is impossible.

[Keizo]

It's all chemicals, you know. You can go and find many examples yourself. The definitions of "drug" and "supplement" tell me very little, especially since plenty of "supplements" become "drugs". If anything it being a "supplement" tells me that I might want to be extra careful since the only people doing any research on it might be complete fools and not top-scientists with a ton of money.

What a complete load a nonsense.

The reason certain compounds are made into prescription drugs is precisely because there is a far higher risk of developing serious side effects from them, compared to dietary supplements, and therefore these drugs need a physician to administer and monitor them.

I would argue it has to do with money and bureaucracy, and what is considered well-recognized illness and not. Maybe I can agree that medicine today is a bit to focused on treating symptoms and not causes, since people are lazy. And that might imply that those compounds have more adverse effects than might be necessary since it doesn't cure the disease. Though I would not draw any broad generalizations from that.

It is ridiculous to state or imply that mixing a bunch of compunds is per-se safer than taking one prescription drug. Even if it is likely more or less harmless.

N-acetyl glucosamine and similar things seems interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. I can note that I have had some kind of stomach issues my entire life, especially when my anxiety was worse.

[Hip]

It is ridiculous to state or imply that mixing a bunch of compunds is per-se safer than taking one prescription drug. Even if it is likely more or less harmless.

Nume and Dunbar: try basing your arguments on a solid foundation of fact, not idle speculation.


Go and have a look at how many supplement manufactures sell products that contain multiple supplements in one capsule. I am not just talking about multivitamins, but all sorts of supplements mixtures. And there are millions of people making their own supplement mixtures at home.

If these supplement mixtures were causing adverse reactions, they would be reported to the FDA. It is the FDA who is responsible for monitoring dietary supplement adverse reactions. See here: Dietary Supplements - Adverse Event Reporting. It is also the FDA's responsibility, incidentally, to monitor and ban any supplements that show evidence of adverse effects.


So how does the supplement adverse effects reported to the FDA compare to the drug adverse effects?

Well, this study finds that there are 2.2 million adverse reactions to prescribed drugs per year.

Whereas by comparison, this study found that there were only 275 reported adverse reactions to dietary supplements.


Thus the adverse reactions due to supplements are completely minuscule in relation to those caused by prescription drugs.

Therefore, these fact demonstrate that what you are saying, Nume and Dunbar, is wrong.

Edited by Hip, 03 February 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[nowayout]

To be fair, adverse reactions to drugs are reported and tracked through several official mechanisms. There is no tracking of adverse reactions to supplements.

Your argument that supplements are safe because they are supplements is circular, because there is no requirement for any safety studies to be done for supplements. Even so, more and more studies are coming out showing that various common supplements may in fact be harmful.

Edited by nowayout, 03 February 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Keizo]

It is ridiculous to state or imply that mixing a bunch of compunds is per-se safer than taking one prescription drug. Even if it is likely more or less harmless.

Nume and Dunbar: try basing your arguments on a solid foundation of fact, not idle speculation.

It's not speculation, it's advice.

I'm NOT arguing against prescription drugs having worse side-effect profiles, in general. If you want to make that claim. (And not take into consideration possible confounding elements.) What I'm saying is, that fact or whatever it appears to be should be completely irrelevant for the supplement taker. Since the attitude ought to be to try and figure out how these compounds might interact if one is taking anything other than RDI doses of vitamins basically.

Edited by Nume, 03 February 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Hip]

To be fair, adverse reactions to drugs are reported and tracked through several official mechanisms. There is no tracking of adverse reactions to supplements.

No, the figure of 2.2 million I gave is only for hospitalization due to dugs adverse reactions, not just general reporting of these adverse reactions.

If you read that supplement study I cited, by comparison there were only 8 cases of hospitalization due to supplement adverse reactions.

Your argument that supplements are safe because they are supplements is circular, because there is no requirement for any safety studies to be done for supplements. Even so, more and more studies are coming out showing that various common supplements may in fact be harmful.

Dietary supplements are generally safe because in most cases we have been eating them in our food for thousands of years. Most dietary supplements are in fact chemical compounds that are found in food, or are chemical compounds that come from medicinal herbs that have been consumed for hundreds or thousands of years.




Let me ask you guys this question again, because you did not answer it the first time:

What on Earth are you doing on this forum if you don't like the idea of taking supplements?


Most of this forum is about taking supplements (or drugs), and many people here devise their own supplement "stacks," involving the consuming of sometimes dozens of supplements in combination, often mixed in with some drugs too.

If you think supplements, or multiple combinations thereof, are dangerous and risky, what on Earth are you doing here?

Your beliefs are absurd, of course, since there are no facts to back up your fears. But nevertheless, it does not make any sense that people with such fears should be attracted to this forum. So what are you dong here?

Please answer this question.

Edited by Hip, 03 February 2014 - 05:30 PM.

[nowayout]

Never mind.

Edited by nowayout, 03 February 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[Hip]

Perhaps some of you guys here have fearful concerns about taking supplements because you have no previous experience of them. So you are entering an area which is unknown to you, and it is normal to have some worries when facing an unknown situation. So perhaps I should just gently try to allay your fears, which are only natural fears to be expected of people entering a new and unknown field.

In my case, I have been taking health improving supplements in various combinations for around 25 years, with almost no adverse effects to report. The only adverse effects I have ever experienced were from one or two supplements that caused some aggressive states of mind, but nothing more than that. I also know many people both online and offline who stack all sorts of combinations of supplements together, with no adverse effects.

Once you have a bit more experience in this area, you will realize that supplements have an excellent safety record.



There are of course some supplements that do have a track record of adverse reactions. For example, the following supplements seem to cause a few problems:

Ephedra — this stimulant herb can cause heart palpitations and heart problems in certain people (this supplement was recently banned by the FDA for while, but then they lifted the ban).

Yohimbine — this stimulant, libido boosting herb can cause headache and nervousness, and sometimes more severe and serious reactions.

Kava kava — this relaxant herb has been banned in Europe, due to the fact that the stems and leaves of this herb contain a toxin that in some rare cases has lead to liver damage. However, the root parts of the plant do not contain this toxin, and are safe.

Phenibut — this relaxant, anti-anxiety supplement can be very addictive, and can cause horrible withdrawal symptoms. I prefer to keep clear of medications that have addiction/withdrawal symptom potential.

Edited by Hip, 03 February 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Hip]

Incidentally, the N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG) supplement that I found was very effective at treating my generalized anxiety disorder has an excellent toxicity profile: this study found that NAG caused no adverse effects at a daily dose of 2300 mg per kilogram of body weight — that corresponds to a daily dose of 160 grams for an average man.

Though It must be said that NAG is a relatively new supplement (although it is related to the supplement glucosamine, which has been around a while), so it does not have a long track record of use just yet. It has not so far been demonstrated safe during pregnancy, so you would be advised to avoid it if you are pregnant.

NAG seems to be beneficial for autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis. See this article, for example:

Glucosamine-like supplement suppresses multiple sclerosis attacks, study suggests -- ScienceDaily

[dunbar]

I have never seen NAG. Is this a widely available supplement? Do brands like Jarrow,Now etc produce it?

[Hip]

@dunbar
You can buy it online. See Google shopping.

[hani]

I took Stablon for two months, the recommended dose three pills a day. Didn't do shit. I have noticed zero difference using it. So I start with Celexa last week, anxiety feels a little better but I am only taking 10mg now and will start with 20mg tomorrow.

[dunbar]

@ Hip

Thanks. This sounds like this supp is actually supposed to be used for the joints. Does it also help with joint pains and how does it affect the skin if it's a hyaluronic acid precursor?

[blood]

@ Hip

Thanks. This sounds like this supp is actually supposed to be used for the joints. Does it also help with joint pains and how does it affect the skin if it's a hyaluronic acid precursor?

Weren't you going to start on an aggressive dose of lexapro, for you OCD symptoms?