9 replies to this topic

[Phoenicis]

Hi, so I wanted to gather input on what should be supplemented as part of a vegan diet. I'm a vegan for health reason not ethical.

 

I'll start with the basics:

• B12,
• Vitamin D,
• Algae / Fish Omega 3s.
• creatine (works as a nootropic for vegans :D)

Now here is where the grey area for me starts - L-carnitine, carnosine / Beta -alanine, taurine. These are usually maintained at homeostasis via biosynthesis in humans (as opposed to true carnivores like cats).

 

Unfortunately if you want to follow any of the major life extension pathways like methionine restriction and leucine reduction for mTOR, IGF-1, and cancer control, it could be hard for you body to produce enough of these on it's own. 

 

So what do you guys think? How safe is it to supplement taurine and beta-alanine (for carnosine / carnitine?)? Do we know how much needs to be supplemented?

 

Cheers!

 

Edited by Phoenicis, 02 May 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Taurine does have some defined deficiency states, and supplementation of it seems to be very safe. The body does produce Taurine from other aminos, but not seemingly enough for truly optimal health, and as you noted, especially not if you're restricting your diet and, therefore, its precursors. As an amino acid, and a very common one, at that, Taurine poses little threat to your health and has no real overdose. The generally recommended dosage is around 5 grams.

Creatine is generally seen as more preferable to supplement, as it has its own brand of effects. You don't need the superhuman levels that body-builders recommend, and I have seen studies of the nootropic abilities on vegans (we can look at this as representing any severely calorically restricted diet too, since the effects on most protein intake would be similar) that showed that as little as 1 gram of Creatine can positively effect the brain. Again, the body will supply most of it, but there are deficiency states that can negatively impact your thinking process, among other things.

Edited by Jeoshua, 02 May 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Darryl]

FWIW, my vegan support regimen:

 

250 µg B12 (methylcobalamin) ~ liquid drops, 6-7 drops in drinking water / hibiscus tea

5000 IU D3 (not vegan, but try to find 5000 IU D2) - aiming for the 50-60 ng/ml serum level

320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA (Ovega algal)

225 µg iodine (sea kelp tab)

2 x Timar's carninutrients's: home-filled capsules each with 250mg creatine, 100 mg beta-alanine, 100 mg taurine, 50 mg carnitine

 

This is what I could gather about mean omnivore dietary intakes of the carninutrients in the literature (generally that of Western collegiate athletes):

 

creatine: 655 mg female, 1034 mg male
beta-alanine: 332 mg
taurine: 60 mg
carnitine: 64 mg

 

I believe taurine has the best evidence in favor of higher intakes than this, based on the urinary excretion and ischemic heart disease risks from the WHO-CARDIAC study. I have never noticed any effects from any of the above, nor from missing a couple days. The algal PUFAs account for most of the aggregate cost.

 

These aren't my only supplements. I also take nicotinic acid, magnesium salicylate, n-acetylcysteine (in the carni caps), K2 Mk7, berberine, curcumin, and andrographis extract targeting specific pathways, but frankly admit they could all be of negligible benefit in the context of a high phytochemical vegan diet. I take no prescription medications, but I would think about metformin, acarbose, telmisartan, rilmenidine, and febuxostat with an unlimited budget and pliable physician. 

 

Edited by Darryl, 02 May 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Phoenicis]

Awesome thanks guys, Timar needs to start his own health brand ^ ^  I come across all these nifty innovations like turmeric palm oil pulp etc. I will try out the 'carninutrients' as I have a capsule machine along with taurine, beta-alanine and creatine powders. Is there any concensus on whether gelatine capsules should be avoided due to BSE? I know it may be overdone, but wasn't there also some speculation that J-KD deaths could be getting misdiagnosed as alzheimers? It would suck so much to get that.

Edited by Phoenicis, 02 May 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[Phoenicis]

FWIW, my vegan support regimen:

 

250 µg B12 (methylcobalamin) ~ liquid drops, 6-7 drops in drinking water / hibiscus tea

5000 IU D3 (not vegan, but try to find 5000 IU D2) - aiming for the 50-60 ng/ml serum level

320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA (Ovega algal)

225 µg iodine (sea kelp tab)

2 x Timar's carninutrients's: home-filled capsules each with 250mg creatine, 100 mg beta-alanine, 100 mg taurine, 50 mg carnitine

 

This is what I could gather about mean omnivore dietary intakes of the carninutrients in the literature (generally that of Western collegiate athletes):

 

creatine: 655 mg female, 1034 mg male
beta-alanine: 332 mg
taurine: 60 mg
carnitine: 64 mg

 

I believe taurine has the best evidence in favor of higher intakes than this, based on the urinary excretion and ischemic heart disease risks from the WHO-CARDIAC study. I have never noticed any effects from any of the above, nor from missing a couple days. The algal PUFAs account for most of the aggregate cost.

 

These aren't my only supplements. I also take nicotinic acid, magnesium salicylate, n-acetylcysteine (in the carni caps), K2 Mk7, berberine, curcumin, and andrographis extract targeting specific pathways, but frankly admit they could all be of negligible benefit in the context of a high phytochemical vegan diet. I take no prescription medications, but I would think about metformin, acarbose, telmisartan, rilmenidine, and febuxostat with an unlimited budget and pliable physician. 

 

 no resveratrol?? I also recall that about a quarter of Caucasians have an impaired ability to convert beta-carotene to vitamin A. Wouldn't Cod liver oil be a good substitute for them or are there other better sources of preformed vitamin A? 

Edited by Phoenicis, 02 May 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[Darryl]

Resveratrol appears to function as a mild mitochondrial poison/AMPK activator, with secondary endogenous antioxidant effects through its oxidized quinone/semi-quinone states interacting with Nrf2/Keap1. I believe berberine is considerably more effective in the former role, and andrographis (and many other polyphenols) in the latter. Metformin is probably preferable to berberine, due to some DNA topoisomerase inhibition issues with berberine.

 

If one of the more potent and bioavailable Sirt1 activating compounds like SRT1720 (probably also just a mild mitochondrial poison) comes to market, it would definitely pique my interest.

 

A Cochrane review found supplementation with vitamin A increased mortality by 16%.

 

Between the sweet potatoes, kale, spinach and tomatoes alone in my diet, I'm already getting 2-3000 mcg retinol activity equivalents daily (as alpha-carotene, beta-carotene, beta-cryptoxanthin, lycopene, lutein and zeaxanthin), or about 3-4 times the RDA. Even beta-carotene 15,15′-monoxygenase double mutants have 43% of wild-type activity, which suggests the possible impaired conversion would be immaterial with my diet. Its worth considering, also, that the current retinol activity equivalent calculations were obtained from feeding studies with cohorts that undoubtedly included some carriers of the mutant alleles: there's some correction for impaired conversion already baked into the 12-24 fold conversion factors between dietary carotenoids and dietary retinol. Most importantly, I can still easily read by partial moonlight, and dark adaptation was for many decades a primary diagnostic measure for vitamin A deficiency. 

 

 

 

Edited by Darryl, 02 May 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[APBT]

I take no prescription medications, but I would think about metformin, acarbose, telmisartan, rilmenidine, and febuxostat with an unlimited budget and pliable physician. 

 

If you're interesting in trailing Metformin without a Rx, it's available here:  http://www.antiaging...formin-metforal

[Phoenicis]

Hi Darryl, I'm sorry for picking your brain this much, but I think many of us are curious about your take on these things. I have few more questions - 

 

1) Do you take iodine daily?

 

2) For n-acetylcysteine, do you take capsules mixed with carnitine? What's your source and regimen? This stuff looks awesome for people with autoimmune conditions, also do you think its effective for fighting Helicobacter pylori? If so wouldn't this be handy for people on aspirin?

 

3) Berberine sounds very interesting for autoimmune conditions, I'm trying to figure out if it down-regulates miR-21 since this could advantageous for psoriasis. A cancer study seems to indicate yes, but I found another that might seem to contradict this - expression level of miR-21-3p was increased. Are MiR-21 and miR-21-3p different in this sense? What is your source and regimen?

 

4) I have had great results with curcumin, what is your favourite preparation? My research indicates that theracurmin, biopeperine and bcm-95 are the most effective (in descending order). 

 

5) Andrographis also sounds great for autoimmune conditions, what is your source and  regimen?

 

Thanks alot for the great information!

 

FWIW, my vegan support regimen:

 

250 µg B12 (methylcobalamin) ~ liquid drops, 6-7 drops in drinking water / hibiscus tea

5000 IU D3 (not vegan, but try to find 5000 IU D2) - aiming for the 50-60 ng/ml serum level

320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA (Ovega algal)

225 µg iodine (sea kelp tab)

2 x Timar's carninutrients's: home-filled capsules each with 250mg creatine, 100 mg beta-alanine, 100 mg taurine, 50 mg carnitine

 

This is what I could gather about mean omnivore dietary intakes of the carninutrients in the literature (generally that of Western collegiate athletes):

 

creatine: 655 mg female, 1034 mg male
beta-alanine: 332 mg
taurine: 60 mg
carnitine: 64 mg

 

I believe taurine has the best evidence in favor of higher intakes than this, based on the urinary excretion and ischemic heart disease risks from the WHO-CARDIAC study. I have never noticed any effects from any of the above, nor from missing a couple days. The algal PUFAs account for most of the aggregate cost.

 

These aren't my only supplements. I also take nicotinic acid, magnesium salicylate, n-acetylcysteine (in the carni caps), K2 Mk7, berberine, curcumin, and andrographis extract targeting specific pathways, but frankly admit they could all be of negligible benefit in the context of a high phytochemical vegan diet. I take no prescription medications, but I would think about metformin, acarbose, telmisartan, rilmenidine, and febuxostat with an unlimited budget and pliable physician. 

 

 

Edited by Phoenicis, 03 May 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[LexLux]

FWIW, my vegan support regimen:

 

250 µg B12 (methylcobalamin) ~ liquid drops, 6-7 drops in drinking water / hibiscus tea

5000 IU D3 (not vegan, but try to find 5000 IU D2) - aiming for the 50-60 ng/ml serum level

320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA (Ovega algal)

225 µg iodine (sea kelp tab)

2 x Timar's carninutrients's: home-filled capsules each with 250mg creatine, 100 mg beta-alanine, 100 mg taurine, 50 mg carnitine

 

This is what I could gather about mean omnivore dietary intakes of the carninutrients in the literature (generally that of Western collegiate athletes):

 

creatine: 655 mg female, 1034 mg male
beta-alanine: 332 mg
taurine: 60 mg
carnitine: 64 mg

 

I believe taurine has the best evidence in favor of higher intakes than this, based on the urinary excretion and ischemic heart disease risks from the WHO-CARDIAC study. I have never noticed any effects from any of the above, nor from missing a couple days. The algal PUFAs account for most of the aggregate cost.

 

These aren't my only supplements. I also take nicotinic acid, magnesium salicylate, n-acetylcysteine (in the carni caps), K2 Mk7, berberine, curcumin, and andrographis extract targeting specific pathways, but frankly admit they could all be of negligible benefit in the context of a high phytochemical vegan diet. I take no prescription medications, but I would think about metformin, acarbose, telmisartan, rilmenidine, and febuxostat with an unlimited budget and pliable physician. 

 

 

Do you take any selenium as a precaution against Hashimoto's caused by iodine? 

[Darryl]

Do you take any selenium as a precaution against Hashimoto's caused by iodine? 

 

A brazil nut once in a while. I live in a part of the world with adequate soil selenium, so selenium is a lesser concern than in parts of Europe and China.

 

Its not clear low-dose iodine is a Hashimoto's risk factor, though one study found 250 µg KI caused a few episodes of subclinical hypothyroidism in those with preexisting Hashimoto's. The main reason for the iodine is that my December blood panel had TSH 2.47, which is higher than the < 2 level I want. In a year I should be iodine replete and find out where the thyroid hormones stand.

Edited by Darryl, 08 May 2014 - 07:40 PM.