• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
* * * - - 4 votes

IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR ISLAM?

spiritualit y religion christianity islam

  • Please log in to reply
292 replies to this topic
⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#271 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 182
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 27 July 2015 - 02:00 PM

So there are no gay women in america? :)
  • Enjoying the show x 1
  • Ill informed x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#272 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 27 July 2015 - 02:57 PM

So there are no gay women in america? :)

 

Or anywhere else for that matter.   :laugh:



#273 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 July 2015 - 08:54 PM

 

Islam teaches you can have how many wives?


Off topic.

The topic is "is there evidence for islam".



If one would read all your posts on this topic one would presume with 100% certainty that the topic title is "why is islam a bad religion". You also become nervous and start yelling "off topic" as soon as the discussion is derailed away from your points about "why islam is bad". Your entire contribution to your own thread is really offtopic.

Why didn't you name the topic so?

See, this is why you're a bad person. You pretend to be nice while simultaneously you manipulate people and micromanage threads towards your ignorant and very foul agenda.


For fairness sake I will adress your offtopic comment.

There is nothing inherently bad in allowing more wives, especially at the time Islam was conceived. Many men could not support a single wife and men also often died in combat so there was a chronic surplus of women.

The institution of marriage also had nothing to do with "romantic interests" up until modern times.


Now, since you opened up pandoras box let's see what the bible says about this.

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.


Your religious hypocrisy is really baffling. No wonder you need separate threads to micromanage your bullshit.

 

The question which was off topic was how many wives did Christianity permit.  The answer is one.  However true to your red herring fallacy you take the polygamous practices of the.Old Testament Jews and ignorantly ascribe them to the church.  The topic is about Islam but ou desperately do not want to talk about it.  In Islam how many female slaves could you have?



⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#274 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 182
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 28 July 2015 - 03:56 PM

The question which was off topic was how many wives did Christianity permit.  The answer is one.  However true to your red herring fallacy you take the polygamous practices of the.Old Testament Jews and ignorantly ascribe them to the church.  The topic is about Islam but ou desperately do not want to talk about it.  In Islam how many female slaves could you have?

OFF TOPIC
 

The topic is not about Islam in general -> the topic is "is there evidence for Islam?"
 

 

 

Does polygamy somehow prove Muhammed was a really prophet and why?

 

Or does polygamy somehow prove Muhammed was a really a false prophet and why? 

 

 

 

 

 

You desperately want to talk about negative aspects of islam and positive aspects of christianity. 

 

You speak here of islamic violence while simultaneously saying that talk of crusaders and "holy wars" is offtopic in the parallel christianity topic. You have desperate double standards and there's nothing you can say that can blind me or anyone else to your hypocrisy. There's no red herrings here - just you being reminded of your double standards. It doesn't seem to help you, you're completely ignorant of your hypocrisy.

 

Is the old testament not a part of the bible? Do christians ignore the 10 commandments? Did Jesus explicitly outlaw polygamy? Did jesus explicitly invalidate the entire old testament? He did explicitly say that he's not here to change the laws but to build upon them.

 

To the best of my knowledge Jesus directly supported at least one form of polygamy - if a brother dies childless, his younger brother inherits his wife and is to have children for him - and this seems to be ok regardless if he already has a wife or children of his own. Jesus made no objection to that.

 

Do you as a christian get to select what you like from the bible? You don't like polygamy so you pretend Solomon didn't have 700 concubines or that it doesn't matter or that the old testament is some archaic story and not a part of the bible and has no influence on Jesus who praised Solomon, David and all the others and saw himself as descendant? Are the old testament stories not true? Adam and eve is as false as kings Solomons moral compass, is that it? And yet the story of adam and eve is practically the only story supporting monogamy in the bible and it is in the same old testament as solomons concubines.

 


Edited by addx, 28 July 2015 - 04:22 PM.


#275 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 28 July 2015 - 08:19 PM

The topic is about Evidence for Islam and can include anything about Islam.  Is it cogent, does it produce good societies, is it moral?  Does its morality make sense,  What kind of character was Muhammad?  Its history, philosophy art and any other thing that reflects on its standing. Christianity, Jewish religion, Hinduism, Buddhism and other religions are not the topic here..  It is a common tactic to try desperately to change the topic so your religion may not be examined.  See how desperately Atheists want to talk about anything but Atheism for example.  Here it is all aspects of Islam.



#276 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 182
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:17 PM

The topic is about Evidence for Islam and can include anything about Islam.  Is it cogent, does it produce good societies, is it moral?  Does its morality make sense,  What kind of character was Muhammad?  Its history, philosophy art and any other thing that reflects on its standing. Christianity, Jewish religion, Hinduism, Buddhism and other religions are not the topic here..  It is a common tactic to try desperately to change the topic so your religion may not be examined.  See how desperately Atheists want to talk about anything but Atheism for example.  Here it is all aspects of Islam.

 

So you convinced yourself that you have all the knowledge and points it takes to reveal the falseness of atheism and islam, but people simply can't admit it? 

 

Also, you're claiming that if we like some religion more (for its pretty books or societies or moralities or whatever) it makes it more "evident"? What the fuck is your point? You like christianity best so it has to be most true? You're like a 2 year old, how on earth did you ever manage to survive, you must have been bullied into oblivion as you grew up. This is sad.  

 

 

Why is it offtopic to talk about holy wars, forced baptising and sins of the medieval church in the christian thread of the exact same title? Is not an argument towards societies which christianity forstered? About morals which christianity fostered? Seriously, you simply can't admit your double standards in spite of them being obvious to a 2 year old. It's ridiculous, seriosuly.

 

And you're probably again going to call out some red herring or find some ad hominem to insult yourself and avoid answering or call out off topic rather than address this disparity in criteria for "offtopic" among these threads. I called you out like 5 times already, you avoided the answer 5 times already. You can't admit your fault and worst of all you think by not admitting that it didn't happen. You really need psychiatric evaluation.

 

It's not that people desperately avoid your points, it's that you bulldoze or ignore their points and simply resume your propaganda as if noone intelligent beside you ever spoke. It's insulting and causes you to get insulted back. Everyone you spoke with ended up insulting you or telling you about the bulldozing or whatever. You still can't accept not one of those claims but rather delude yourself that they couldn't face your superduper arguments. 


Edited by addx, 28 July 2015 - 10:24 PM.


#277 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:45 PM

 

The topic is about Evidence for Islam and can include anything about Islam.  Is it cogent, does it produce good societies, is it moral?  Does its morality make sense,  What kind of character was Muhammad?  Its history, philosophy art and any other thing that reflects on its standing. Christianity, Jewish religion, Hinduism, Buddhism and other religions are not the topic here..  It is a common tactic to try desperately to change the topic so your religion may not be examined.  See how desperately Atheists want to talk about anything but Atheism for example.  Here it is all aspects of Islam.

 

So you convinced yourself that you have all the knowledge and points it takes to reveal the falseness of atheism and islam, but people simply can't admit it? 

 

Also, you're claiming that if we like some religion more (for its pretty books or societies or moralities or whatever) it makes it more "evident"? What the fuck is your point? You like christianity best so it has to be most true? You're like a 2 year old, how on earth did you ever manage to survive, you must have been bullied into oblivion as you grew up. This is sad.  

 

 

Why is it offtopic to talk about holy wars, forced baptising and sins of the medieval church in the christian thread of the exact same title? Is not an argument towards societies which christianity forstered? About morals which christianity fostered? Seriously, you simply can't admit your double standards in spite of them being obvious to a 2 year old. It's ridiculous, seriosuly.

 

And you're probably again going to call out some red herring or find some ad hominem to insult yourself and avoid answering or call out off topic rather than address this disparity in criteria for "offtopic" among these threads. I called you out like 5 times already, you avoided the answer 5 times already. You can't admit your fault and worst of all you think by not admitting that it didn't happen. You really need psychiatric evaluation.

 

It's not that people desperately avoid your points, it's that you bulldoze or ignore their points and simply resume your propaganda as if noone intelligent beside you ever spoke. It's insulting and causes you to get insulted back. Everyone you spoke with ended up insulting you or telling you about the bulldozing or whatever. You still can't accept not one of those claims but rather delude yourself that they couldn't face your superduper arguments. 

 

Obviously you want desperately want to derail the topic and call me names and attack Christianity.  :)  Rave on avoid learning about Islam.  How many wives did Mohammed have and how many slaves?  Are there any descriptions of how Mohammed had sexual relations with them all?  Hay, I am giving you the ball.  This is evidence how women are treated in Islam.  Tell us.


  • dislike x 1

#278 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:49 PM

SH why are you asking Addx those questions as if he is supposed to defend Islam?

 

I thought we talked about this.   :mellow:



#279 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 12:25 AM

SH why are you asking Addx those questions as if he is supposed to defend Islam?

 

I thought we talked about this.   :mellow:

He is the one talking to me and has posted regarding Islam many times.  My questions are open to anyone, including you.  What do you mean we talked about it?  Our conversation just started regarding Islam, marriage. slaves and the examples in Islam.

 



⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#280 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 12:30 AM

What I meant was that you and I have had some exchanges in the atheism about you expecting people to defend positions they don't agree with, or at least acting you expect such a thing.

 

That's all I meant.



#281 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 12:39 AM

What I meant was that you and I have had some exchanges in the atheism about you expecting people to defend positions they don't agree with, or at least acting you expect such a thing.

 

That's all I meant.

 

Why would I expect someone to defend something they don't agree with?  That would be entirely up to them.  I have done this on occasion.  The subject here is Islam and its evidences. 
 



#282 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 12:43 AM

I'm actually curious about whether or not you intend to continue our discussion in the atheism thread, of if you have decided you don't want to deal with it.  It's been two days and you've been online and posting here plenty of times in the past two days.  

 

So what's up?



#283 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 12:53 AM

I thought you guys wanted to talk about screwing women.  Usually it is about molesting children.  So I am not really interested.  If you say something cogent about Atheism, I will be back.  Since this is about Islam I will refrain from talking about Atheism.


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#284 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:03 AM

Wait a minute here... 

 

You're not interested unless we want to talk about sex crimes and "screwing women"?



#285 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:33 AM

No, that is where the conversation turned.  So I went on.  If you want to talk about it, it is another thread.



#286 forexworld12

  • Guest
  • 150 posts
  • 6
  • Location:India
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:53 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know you want to change the topic from Islam to Christianity but Christ never taught you couldn't drink wine, in fact he turned water into wine and drank it.  As for pork and other things of the dietary laws they were superseded in the new testament but I don't intend to follow that derailment of the topic which is Islam.  Islam teaches you can have how many wives?

 

 

Quran 4:3 "Marry women of your choices by two's, three or four; but if you cannot do justice between them Then "MARRY ONLY ONE"

 

The only religious book on the face of the earth that say's  "MARRY ONLY ONE"

 

 

That verse explicitly says you can marry 2 or 3 or 4 women unless you cannot support them all or otherwise "do justice between them," then you would marry only one.

 

It's just a rule that points out an exception when a man should have only one wife...  because multiple wives was the acceptable custom and a given in the text.

 

Please don't insult our intelligence with trying to say otherwise

 

No point in arguing If you don't understand the core meaning of the verse 

 

 

Thanks, I do understand the core meaning of the verse  You can have four wives if you can afford them but only one if you can't. afford it.
 

 

Marrying more than 1 wife is not an obligation In Islam. It is optional But if someone intends to Marry more than one woman He has to do justice between them meaning if he buys his former wife a Car he has to do the same for the latter wife.If he buys a 3 BHK flat for one wife A similar must be done for all the other wives. If he spends Time with one wife He has to do so with all of them failing which is what is known as "Cannot do justice"  UNLIKE BIBLE WHERE A MAN CAN MARRY UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF WOMAN AS IF THEY ARE SOME TOYS

 

 

From a religious point of view Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million more females in USA who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband. 

 

care to look at the human sex ratio 

 

https://en.wikipedia...es_by_sex_ratio

 

When you don't know what you are talking about I suggest you try not try to derail the topic by misstating the Christian view and expecting someone to chase your rabbit trail.  So in Islam, as I SAID you can have up to four wives if you can afford them.  Right?  How many slave women can you have?  (NOT WIVES)  And how do you Get slaves?  Can they be Muslim?

 

I Don't know what I'm talking about ? If you have So much problem with slaves and wives why don't you first explain Shit in your own Biblical Bullshit .Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.

 

Slaves as livestock -.However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

 

the following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated

 

. If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

 

Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave

 

The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?

 

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

 

Sooooooo A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them

 

What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing. When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

 

 

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show. Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 

Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong. The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)



#287 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 182
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:58 AM

 

...

 

Obviously you want desperately want to derail the topic and call me names and attack Christianity.  :)  Rave on avoid learning about Islam.  How many wives did Mohammed have and how many slaves?  Are there any descriptions of how Mohammed had sexual relations with them all?  Hay, I am giving you the ball.  This is evidence how women are treated in Islam.  Tell us.

 

 

Again you avoid to address your double standards.

 

 

 

As for the intended topic.

 

I would really wonder if there is really more incidences of "marital rape" in saudi arabia than there is of "normal rape" in the USA - per capita. (it doesn't matter if the rape is legal or not, it matters if it happens or not - if we're contemplating how truly moral societies are rather than comparing their legislature!!!! )

I would also wonder how much domestic violence is there in the USA and how much in saudi arabia.

Also one would compare general violence in the USA and in saudi arabia.

When you compare all those you have to note that saudi women do not prostitute themselves. USA women do - both forced and voluntary and in many cases - legally! 

Furthermore, there is little or no drugs in saudi arabia and alcoholism basically doesn't exist, the USA is the homeland of drug use and alcoholism and subsequently also drug-date-rape. 

How many minors are currently selling drugs in USA? 

I can go on...

 

 

So, think hard about how exactly the USA way of life is "more appropriate" than saudi way of life? 

 

 

You can for example use malaysia instead of saudi arabia... same thing... 

 

Here's a link,

 

http://www.themalays...h-hanim-mokhtar

 

 


Where's the evidence?

There are no statistics to prove that the practice of marital rape first, is highly prevalence among the Malay-Muslims, and second, Muslims who resorted to domestic violence did so because of the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah.

It might well be because they did not follow the tenets of Islam in the first place, that require husbands to be kind and protective to women.

While a few parties from the feminist advocates are hell bent trying to portray the hadith of Prophet on the obligation of wife towards husband in a negative light as well as the source of “domestic violence”, they forgot to see across the globe that in non-Islamic countries, which of course has nothing to do with the hadith, the prevalence of domestic violence is alarming, too. These countries are said to be providing better equal rights to women as compared with this part of the world.

The report by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), violence against women stated in 1 in 3 women in Europe is a victim of violence including domestic/intimate partner violence. One in 20 women has been raped.

In Malaysia, the latest statistics of women in 2014 Malaysian Demographic Profiles gave the figure of women between the ages of 15 and 24 years as roughly 2.5 million.

With the 3,000 rape cases reported per year, by comparison, it translated into roughly 1-2 cases of rape in every 1,000 women (and this does not include women from 25 years and above which will make the ratio even lower).

Thus, to say that Islam may contribute to prevalence of domestic violence and rape is a claim unsubstantiated and full of slander. 

Under-reporting of cases among Muslim women because of religion obligation? Yes, it's a possibility. But that was also the phenomenon in the study Europe which stated "What emerges is a picture of extensive abuse that affects many women’s lives, but is systematically under-reported to the authorities," the report, which was written after interviews with 42,000 women across the union.

In US, The Huffington Post reported more dramatically, the number of women who died due to intimate partner/husband crime almost doubled the number of American soldiers who died in the war of Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

...

 

 

There's more in the article, I suggest you read it.


Edited by addx, 29 July 2015 - 07:10 AM.


#288 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 04:03 PM

I Don't know what I'm talking about ? If you have So much problem with slaves and wives why don't you first explain Shit in your own Biblical Bullshit .Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.

 

 

 

 

Slaves as livestock -.However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

 

the following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated

 

. If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

 

Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave

 

The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?

 

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

 

Sooooooo A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them

 

What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing. When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

 

 

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show. Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 

Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong. The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

 

 

 

Is an Islamic wife allowed to refuse sex without being punished for it?


Edited by Duchykins, 29 July 2015 - 04:04 PM.


#289 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:34 PM

 

 

...

 

Obviously you want desperately want to derail the topic and call me names and attack Christianity.  :)  Rave on avoid learning about Islam.  How many wives did Mohammed have and how many slaves?  Are there any descriptions of how Mohammed had sexual relations with them all?  Hay, I am giving you the ball.  This is evidence how women are treated in Islam.  Tell us.

 

 

Again you avoid to address your double standards.

 

 

 

As for the intended topic.

 

I would really wonder if there is really more incidences of "marital rape" in saudi arabia than there is of "normal rape" in the USA - per capita. (it doesn't matter if the rape is legal or not, it matters if it happens or not - if we're contemplating how truly moral societies are rather than comparing their legislature!!!! )

I would also wonder how much domestic violence is there in the USA and how much in saudi arabia.

Also one would compare general violence in the USA and in saudi arabia.

When you compare all those you have to note that saudi women do not prostitute themselves. USA women do - both forced and voluntary and in many cases - legally! 

Furthermore, there is little or no drugs in saudi arabia and alcoholism basically doesn't exist, the USA is the homeland of drug use and alcoholism and subsequently also drug-date-rape. 

How many minors are currently selling drugs in USA? 

I can go on...

 

 

So, think hard about how exactly the USA way of life is "more appropriate" than saudi way of life? 

 

 

You can for example use malaysia instead of saudi arabia... same thing... 

 

Here's a link,

 

http://www.themalays...h-hanim-mokhtar

 

 


Where's the evidence?

There are no statistics to prove that the practice of marital rape first, is highly prevalence among the Malay-Muslims, and second, Muslims who resorted to domestic violence did so because of the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah.

It might well be because they did not follow the tenets of Islam in the first place, that require husbands to be kind and protective to women.

While a few parties from the feminist advocates are hell bent trying to portray the hadith of Prophet on the obligation of wife towards husband in a negative light as well as the source of “domestic violence”, they forgot to see across the globe that in non-Islamic countries, which of course has nothing to do with the hadith, the prevalence of domestic violence is alarming, too. These countries are said to be providing better equal rights to women as compared with this part of the world.

The report by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), violence against women stated in 1 in 3 women in Europe is a victim of violence including domestic/intimate partner violence. One in 20 women has been raped.

In Malaysia, the latest statistics of women in 2014 Malaysian Demographic Profiles gave the figure of women between the ages of 15 and 24 years as roughly 2.5 million.

With the 3,000 rape cases reported per year, by comparison, it translated into roughly 1-2 cases of rape in every 1,000 women (and this does not include women from 25 years and above which will make the ratio even lower).

Thus, to say that Islam may contribute to prevalence of domestic violence and rape is a claim unsubstantiated and full of slander. 

Under-reporting of cases among Muslim women because of religion obligation? Yes, it's a possibility. But that was also the phenomenon in the study Europe which stated "What emerges is a picture of extensive abuse that affects many women’s lives, but is systematically under-reported to the authorities," the report, which was written after interviews with 42,000 women across the union.

In US, The Huffington Post reported more dramatically, the number of women who died due to intimate partner/husband crime almost doubled the number of American soldiers who died in the war of Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

...

 

 

There's more in the article, I suggest you read it.

 

 

 

When you compare all those you have to note that saudi women do not prostitute themselves. 

 

When you compare, you'll note that there's a lot of things Saudi women don't do because they can be publicly beaten or killed for it.  

 

However, a form of prostitution does exist in Islamic regions, as it does in every human culture.  With Muslims, prostitution comes in the form of temporary marriages (mut'ah).  There is a long history of this in Islamic doctrine and some Muslims now say that Allah no longer allows this arrangement, while other Muslims disagree.  There is scriptural evidence supporting both cases, which we know is typical of the Abrahamic religions.  The practice still continues in all Islamic cultures, albeit with varying degrees of openness.  Still, this does not always protect these women from being murdered.

 

 

 (it doesn't matter if the rape is legal or not, it matters if it happens or not - if we're contemplating how truly moral societies are rather than comparing their legislature!!!! )

 

This is an example of universal morality as opposed to relative.  We atheists really do tend to lean towards a type of universal morality when we get right down to the bare bones of it.  And not just because universalism is extremely handy for rebuking religious moral values.  Own it, my friend, revel in it.  It's a righteous system and meshes well with our evolutionary heritage.



#290 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:29 PM

In any case, Islamic doctrine is clear that wives have no right to refuse sex unless she is bleeding, very ill, fasting, or he is drunk (or perhaps obese).  She is not allowed to refuse if she is simply tired, or not in the mood at that particular time, or if she is not attracted to him at all.  These are not reasons to refuse.   Again, husbands are generally entitled to sex, men are base animals that "have needs," with little self-control, that wives are obligated to tend (because he needs help to avoid committing adultery).  

 

If she refuses "for no reason," as they like to say, then she has sinned and is cursed until she changes her mind or gets in the mood.  I have also listened to and read many statements from Muslim men say that a woman who does this "for no reason" is "abusive" and has gravely wronged her husband.

 

They like to try to make it clear that because the husband technically should not violently force sex on his wife then that means he is not allowed to rape her.  They also like to think they are being magnanimous by allowing a wife to refuse sex for those few reasons.

 

They do not recognize the existence of nonviolent coercion.  Nonviolent coercion is of course the primary vehicle for domestic rape... outside of Islam, that is.  Right?

 

The doctrine also says that the husband can discipline her for refusing.  It also says that it is her fault for incurring her husband's wrath and she should have had the foresight to avoid it (by being obedient).


Edited by Duchykins, 29 July 2015 - 06:51 PM.

  • dislike x 1

#291 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:55 PM

Almost forgot, the doctrine also says if a wife does not consent, the husband is allowed to either divorce her ... or take another wife.


  • dislike x 1

#292 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:47 PM

Red Herrings Galore!!!  In Islam you can have four wives but as Duchkynus notes this is not marriage as we in the west know it or as other religions know it.  But I asked about Mohammed.  How many wives and slaved did He have?  Four?  Since sex was brought up are there any sources in ISLAMIC texts where it describes His relationships with his wives and slaves?  So go off topic and commit logical fallacies in order to keep from talking about Islam but I am giving you a chance.  I have another issue regarding Mohammed's  son and his wife.  Did Mohammed take a liking to her and what happened?  I have read stories and I would like to hear it from a devotee. 



⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#293 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • -113
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 31 July 2015 - 08:20 PM

SEX SLAVERY.... IS THIS TRUE?

 

 

 

 

 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: spiritualit y, religion, christianity, islam

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users