120 replies to this topic

[jaydfox]

Bottom line why treat stuff in here any different then stuff in the general supp forum? Probably nothing in here as bad as that prostatim whatever it is called.

Hey, I've blogged my disregard for protandim, so blatant was the bad marketing on it, so yes, we've been consistent in this regard. My main complaint with Prometheus is not what he's doing, but how he's going about it. What he's doing desparately needs to be done, since the nootropics community seem somewhat incapable of doing it themselves.

[scottl]

Jay,

Agreed (I think I generally see eye to eye with you as I recall).

As I said, anything said in a reasonable tone is no problem.

But do realize stuff will work for which there is no proof. ALas and there is the placebo effect, so it is not easy.

One relevant example: it is hardly unreasonable to thing that people might vary in amounts of various neurotransmitters with some having less then optimal (whatever that means) and that by taking supps (which can vertainly alter neorutransmitters) people might truly benefit. All this with zero data--in fact if you think that people vary in neurotransmitter amounts then you could not even study this--unless you could find some way to measure neurotransmitters since people who were..."low" would benefit from a supp and others with more normal amounts would not show any benefits.

Edit: now if I could only find a nootropic that would improve my spelling...

[mitkat]

My statements echo Scott's here I think, so I'm going to be lame enough to quote myself from another post, because I think it's relevant, and not many people probably read it anyways.

I'm not saying everyone should take nootropics, or that anyone should. Those subtle imperfections we ALL have might benefit, or they might not. It depends on so many things, too many variables for any pharmaceutical company to test for. Most people would benefit from a simple exercise routine, a good quality multi-vitamin, and a pat on the head - but not all.

And optimal brain levels...lol, that's what I thought - the old "what IS normal?" problem

[scottl]

Let me tell you something, if I'm intimidating the sources of misinformation then I'm doing my job. 

Edit: now if I could only find a nootropic that would improve my spelling...

And that is the whole problem. There is no such thing.

"Let me tell you something, if I'm intimidating the sources of misinformation then I'm doing my job. "

Please tell me what job that is? What job title at imminst are you doing? And you seem incapable of taking enen unsubtle hints from Jay.


Not to mention having lost your sense of humor if you can't recognise a joke.

[Shepard]

And that is the whole problem. There is no such thing. You have to learn to spell, you have to read, you have to write. Nothing will take the place of hard work. You can take anabolic steroids until your liver goes green but unless you break your back lifting weights and eating like a freak and resting when your friends are clubbing, over and over and over you will not get any results.

You have to learn to take or understand a joke.

And on the steroid part, now who is giving out false information? Testosterone supplementation has been found to increase LBM even without training. Young males, too.

[Shepard]

http://ajpendo.physi...ull/281/6/E1172

Link to the study..

Endogenous production was supressed, then testosterone supplementation was administered.

[scottl]

Promethius,

I do not enjoy dailoging with hostile people. No one would care if you made your points without the emotion. I suppose one can say that at least you don't include multiple large fonts with multiple colors and large pics in your rants :-)

Anyway I've made my point above in post 101880 (mouse over the word link to see post numbers) the one adressed to Jay about the problem with relying on studies for nootropes and why I'm not sure they even can be studied to some extent.

I think any further keystrokes on my part dialoging with you in your present state of mind are wasted (which you may find interesting is the same think I just told "Steve" on another board).

[uniquenutrition]

I'm sure you did scottl.


Back to the subject of this topic.


Nice feedback: http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=22733


Just added LEF to our line of companies offered with beyond member discounts.


Just e-mail us what you want and I'll price quote you.


Sincerely Steve Sliwa
President [Confirmed by the BBB]
Proud Member of the BBB
Unique Nutrition
www.uniquenutrition.net
1-877-278-4942

[jaydfox]

Anyway I've made my point above in post 101880 (mouse over the word link to see post numbers) the one adressed to Jay about the problem with relying on studies for nootropes and why I'm not sure they even can be studied to some extent.

Is this the part you're referring to:

One relevant example: it is hardly unreasonable to thing that people might vary in amounts of various neurotransmitters with some having less then optimal (whatever that means) and that by taking supps (which can vertainly alter neorutransmitters) people might truly benefit. All this with zero data--in fact if you think that people vary in neurotransmitter amounts then you could not even study this--unless you could find some way to measure neurotransmitters since people who were..."low" would benefit from a supp and others with more normal amounts would not show any benefits.

I'm not a biologist, and I've never conducted a controlled study, but from my understanding of statistics and methods, I'm not sure your concerns are a complete roadblock. In cases where individual variations are a concern, you can do intrasubject tests with placebo and drug, which will help identify which individuals respond to the drug and which don't. This is of course if there's no way to measure the underlying cause of resistance to the drug, e.g., if it's unknown how the drug's actions are mediated.

The key is getting a large enough sample to achieve statistical significance, and performing the random double blind alternations in placebo/drug (over periods long enough to control for genetic shifts, homeostatic shifts, build-up of drug levels or its effects, etc.). Such a study might be more expensive, require more participants, and take longer than a study in which one is not concerned about individual variations. But such a study can be done. Scientists and statisticians can be determined people.

[uniquenutrition]

Currently on Imminst Chat for those interesting in discussing nootropics.


Sincerely Steve Sliwa
President
Unique Nutrition
www.uniquenutrition.net
1-877-278-4942

[Shepard]

http://ajpendo.physi...ull/281/6/E1172

Link to the study..

Endogenous production was supressed, then testosterone supplementation was administered.

Don't just throw me a reference. What's your point..?

Absolutely nothing, just giving you a reference for my argument against your previous statement. I realize your statement was an afterthought, but it's not like this thread hasn't gone off-topic anyway.

[scottl]

Is this the part you're referring to:

I'm not a biologist, and I've never conducted a controlled study, but from my understanding of statistics and methods, I'm not sure your concerns are a complete roadblock. In cases where individual variations are a concern, you can do intrasubject tests with placebo and drug, which will help identify which individuals respond to the drug and which don't. This is of course if there's no way to measure the underlying cause of resistance to the drug, e.g., if it's unknown how the drug's actions are mediated.

The key is getting a large enough sample to achieve statistical significance, and performing the random double blind alternations in placebo/drug (over periods long enough to control for genetic shifts, homeostatic shifts, build-up of drug levels or its effects, etc.). Such a study might be more expensive, require more participants, and take longer than a study in which one is not concerned about individual variations. But such a study can be done. Scientists and statisticians can be determined people.

Jay,

My basic point was that one can easily imagine situations now where people would benefit from some nootropes/precursors. And this is where we are today, without optimal data. Sure I'd love to have good science on everything.

Yes you are correct one could do the study as you suggest. Of course aging/decreased congition/suboptimal cognition or increasing cognition are not diseases so as far as I know no drug could ever be approved for it in the US, so no drug company would ever do the study.

Anyway Promethius' behavior reflects on this place, as did nootropi's. Your call and your problem--I've said my piece.


Oh and as far as being saved by the scientists and stat people:

"Scientists and statisticians can be determined people."

I'd settle for well done studies asking intelligent questions on more basic supps instead of the weekly tripe being published "debunking" glucosamine, vit e, fish oil, calcium and Vit D, homocysteine...:-(

[scottl]

Prometheus,

Heh if one is going to judge MDs by their spelling I flunk...sorry about that anyway.

"I noticed an interesting exchange beween you and the user of the uniquenutrition account over at mindandmuscle.net before. It appears there is no love lost there."

What did you think because I don't like your hostility I defend him? No. I've been fairly outspoken about what I think of Steve....short of the point of...well you get the idea.

Anyway as I already said I'm not at all pleased that they are sticking with unique, but such is life.

"The strange thing is that when I spoke to Steve Sliwa he sounded articulate and had a reasonable range of vocabulary at his disposal. The posts, based on the articulation and reasoning feel as if they are from an entirely different person."

So there is such a real person? Anyway I'm not shocked that the net steve may not be the real person.

[scottl]

It's prometheus. Someone has to do the dirty work...

Ahhh so the imminst directors voted for the bad cop scenario and you drew the short stick...I see.

Edited by scottl, 26 March 2006 - 12:26 PM.

[scottl]

And on the steroid part, now who is giving out false information? Testosterone supplementation has been found to increase LBM even without training. Young males, too.

Be careful. Testosterone supplementation resulting in LBM in young males? For a short period - until endogenous production drops. Then either they have to raise their dosage, switch to another type of anabolic or plateau.

Where testosterone levels are low due to disease, testosterone supplementation is beneficial and will bring, say a constitutionally underweight male to a normal weight range. In a healthy male, however, testosterone supplementation will be perceived by endocrine homeostatic sensors as an abnormal overproduction of endogenous testosterone and immediately begin a process of correction that results in testicular atrophy which in prolonged supplementation can reduce testicular volume by as much as 30% of normal ( a reduction of 70%). Consequently, unless one is prepared to maintain supplementation indefinately, when the individual stops the supplementation the period of time required to achieve recovery of endogenous production can take weeks or months. Bodybuilders and other athletes attempt to compress the recovery period by taking gonadrophin stimulators such as pregnyl and proviron. In some cases, pituitary function is so compromised that they have to maintain GH supplementation for the rest of their life. The bottom line: the gains are ridiculously transient.

This is the reason why professional athletes, once commencing, cannot come off endocrine augumentation until the end of their careers.

I didn't think that really could be your alter ego on mind & muscle because I didn't think you knew that much about anabolics....

[mbartz]

Just to clarify something... my understanding is that the "3 month supply" rule applies discretely to each product in any single delivery. On top of that you're not supposed to import more than "15 months supply" in total in any 12 month period.

See http://www.tga.gov.a...med/persimp.htm :

You may bring a 3 month supply (at the maximum dose recommended by the manufacturer) of unapproved medicines into Australia in any one importation without any approval required by the TGA provided that:

  1. the goods are for the use in the treatment of the importer or their immediate family; and
  2. you do not supply (sell or give) the medicine to any other person; and
  3. the goods do not contain a controlled substance in Appendix A or Appendix B; and
  4. the goods are not injections that contain material of human or animal origin (except insulin); and
  5. the total quantity of the medicine imported within a 12 month period does not exceed 15 months supply of the drug (at the maximum dose recommended by the manufacturer); and
  6. if the goods are in Schedule 4 or 8 of the Standard for the Uniform Scheduling of Drug and Poisons a prescription from a registered medical practitioner is held for the goods.

I have imported 700g of Piracetam powder from 1fast400.com. Packet was opened and re-sealed, no problems, no delay.
In practice, the 3-months rule seems to be reasonably flexible as you can buy for yourself and your immediate family.
Another example: I bought a years worth of Life Extension Mix during the LEF January super sale, and that was no problem either.

Cheers,
--
Manfred

[uniquenutrition]

It's important to make your your nootropic supplier does quality heavy metal testing to insure safe products.


Contact us for more details.



Sincerely Steve Sliwa
President
Unique Nutrition
www.uniquenutrition.net
1-877-278-4942

[mitkat]

It's important to make your your nootropic supplier does quality heavy metal testing to insure safe products.


Contact us for more details.

...Yeah!

[DJS]

...Yeah!

[uniquenutrition]

Most companies don't do that, why should I?


Also it cannot be done on our current website always without making major changes to our site.


Sincerely Steve Sliwa
President
Unique Nutrition
www.uniquenutrition.net
1-877-278-4942

[nootropicgod]

Don't buy anything from these guys. All their nootropics are full of heavy metals!!