120 replies to this topic

[Trias]

inarchunite
piracetam is used in hospitals in many countries including US. it's proven to be safe and effective (for some conditions, won't go into discussion for which).
you can read positive feedback on it by many consumers all over internet

would love to see references.

[scottl]

Guys is this still going on?

FWIW: I thing most of the people (including me and including some of the imminst staff) have acted...less then appropriately throughout all of this mess (keep reading you'll figure out the one I have in mind).

Obviously lifemirage/Edward/steve behaved grossly inappropriately. Interestingly, though a number (but not obviously all) of the things lifemirage has said were correct (whoever he is).

I have had some dealings with da_sense and he has always behaved honorably despite his linkage to uni. I see no need to beat him up over this.

Personally I think it sucks (sorry Lior) that M & M still is associating with uni. However while I understand the motive of some of the imminst staff from here who posted on M&M (formerly avant) I do not think their behavior while posting was appropriate (as I said, me aculpa my behavoir wasn't impeccable either).

And lastly, while I personally have not benefitted much from nootropics others have and I think to some extent people here are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not shocked as IMHO there has always been something of a.....I'm not sure what word to use but...let's just say I don't think supps and especially nootropes have a fond place in the heart of many of the...I guess directors is the correct term.

My 3c (inflation). I must be done. I've probably pissed off everyone

[focus]

I have been taking Piracetam for some time now, RI brand, 3rd party testing, with AOR Alpha GPC, and have noticed some enhancement in visualization and creativity. This is just me though, I believe that the anecdotal evidence shows that different people respond differently to the racetams. I had a very good experience going with Oxiracetam and Piracetam, with Alpha GPC, but something happened to the quality supply of Oxiracetam for a time, I think RI will be doing their own (3rd party tested) brand shortly. Also I personally do not tolerate Aniracetam well at all, but others have reported good experiences with it.

I do know that the book "Brain Longevity" does mention Piracetam in a positive fashion although Dr. Khalsa does not recommend it specifically. Also, I believe that Piracetam is a prescription med in Europe, marketed as "Nootropil".

The Oxiracetam I used in the past was the UN brand. Also I have had one purchase experience with UN and it was positive.

[Shepard]

Guys is this still going on?

Personally I think it sucks (sorry Lior) that M & M still is associating with uni.  However while I understand the motive of some of the imminst staff from here who posted on M&M (formerly avant) I do not think their behavior while posting was appropriate (as I said, me aculpa my behavoir wasn't impeccable  either).

And lastly, while I personally have not benefitted much from nootropics others have and I think to some extent people here are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I'm not shocked as IMHO there has always been something of a.....I'm not sure what word to use but...let's just say I don't think supps and especially nootropes have a fond place in the heart of many of the...I guess directors is the correct term.

Word.

[mitkat]

Word to big bird. I am getting so tired of seeing all this interrogative crap towards people who DO NOT deserve it. LM is gone, in one form anyways, probably more than half of us will never buy from UN (I never did in the first place), and da_sense has no real relationship with them except for that he drop-ships certain products for them.

And scott, respect on being the first person I've seen to correct for inflation [thumb]

[scottl]

I am getting so tired of seeing all this interrogative crap towards people who DO NOT deserve it.

Can you point me to what you mean by "this interrogative crap"? If you think that Imminst is going to tolerate and become a medium for the propagation of pseudoscience and quakery or the commercial exploitation of misinformation you are sadly mistaken.

Then get rid of the f'in [feel feel free to edit expletive if it suits you] nootropic section and make yourselves happy.

Promethius in case I was not clear, you were the one I was speeking of who's behavior was not apropriate on avant, and your anger...does not seemed to have cooled.

1. You could say the same things without the hostility.

2. So you are to be the judge of what everyone else here is allowed to ingest suppelment wise?

[Brainbox]

I can very well understand this reactional behaviour of Prometheus.

Please also read this thread with his view and an addition I just did make there.

[scottl]

Then get rid of the f'in [feel feel free to edit expletive if it suits you] nootropic section and make yourselves happy

Why get rid of it? Is a scientific and rational approach to nootropics discussion incompatible with the nootropics community? I think we need to take some responsibility here.

Who is "we" in your statement? And take some responsibility means what aside from harassing De Sense?

[scottl]

Promethius,

People need to take responsibility for their own behavior vs having someone else recognise it and protect them from misinformation. THis attitude of elitism i.e. we know better and so must protect those who do not...is not one I'm rather fond of.

And really who are you or opales, or yes I to judge what is misinformation. That is the problem. WHO WILL GUARD US FROM THE GUARDIANS?

2. RE: other board
While it is undergoing some changes (really split into 2 boards) and I ain't fond of some of what is happening over there 1. the overall level on intellectual discourse over there vs here (NB I Only read supps/nootropics/health mostly here) is genberally higher over there and 2. there are almost no trolls over there 3. It's pretty much a monarchy rather then an oligarchy so when stuff needs to be done i.e. banish someone (which they have not had to do to many more people then has this place) it is done.

[jaydfox]

People need to take responsibility for their own behavior vs having someone else recognise it and protect them from misinformation. THis attitude of elitism i.e. we know better and so must protect those who do not...is not one I'm rather fond of.

I have to comment on this:

In a libertarian marketplace, free from restrictive and misguided regulation, it IS the responsibility of people in the marketplace to warn the masses of charlatans and misinformation. For nootropics to ever properly flourish, oppressive regulation viz the FDA, DEA, etc., must be lifted.

However, without regulation in place, the market needs self-regulation, and part of that is for people who know better not to sit idly by and watch misinformation be spread. When you see, confront it, post references, be informative, and let the market decide based on the whole picture, not just the rosy version spouted by charlatans.

[mitkat]

I am getting so tired of seeing all this interrogative crap towards people who DO NOT deserve it.

Can you point me to what you mean by "this interrogative crap"? If you think that Imminst is going to tolerate and become a medium for the propagation of pseudoscience and quakery or the commercial exploitation of misinformation you are sadly mistaken.

Come on, seriously! You can read your own posts, you are the self-appointed spanish inquisition of Imminst. Why would I wish for Imminst to become a "medium for the propropagation of pseudoscience and quakery or the commercial exploitation of misinformation"? That is preposterous, and I wish you could see that. You never used to post in the nootropics forum much, and now you just cut people up you feel are "guilty", thinking you're the pinnacle of truth, enlightening everyone who is ignorant in the nootropic forum. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, but many people agree this is unacceptable behaviour from one in a leadership position. You are harassing members who have dedicated a lot of time and thought to this board, and you will scare away new users. And if you don't think that's happening, then you are sadly mistaken.

[jaydfox]

When you see [it], confront it

Confrontational styles vary from person to person, and I understand that you're frustrated with Prometheus's particular style. His execution may not be optimal (*cough* understatement *cough*), but his intent is right on the mark.

The nootropics community is sorely in need of self-regulation, if ever you want to convince people that you are in the leastwise deserving of having nootropic compounds deregulated. This would be especially true in places like Austraila, where you have to import the stuff because no one in your country is willing to manufacture this stuff.

[mitkat]

I have to comment on this:

In a libertarian marketplace, free from restrictive and misguided regulation, it IS the responsibility of people in the marketplace to warn the masses of charlatans and misinformation. For nootropics to ever properly flourish, oppressive regulation viz the FDA, DEA, etc., must be lifted.

However, without regulation in place, the market needs self-regulation, and part of that is for people who know better not to sit idly by and watch misinformation be spread. When you see, confront it, post references, be informative, and let the market decide based on the whole picture, not just the rosy version spouted by charlatans.

In theory Jay, you're right. But this is NOT a libertarian marketplace, and you are pointing out one of the many major flaws of that selfish system. Are you implying that Imminst exists soley as a libertarian society?

Who exactly is assigning who to be that self-regulation? Can I get a uniform, maybe a "nootropic stupidity regulator" badge to wear?

[scottl]

I am getting so tired of seeing all this interrogative crap towards people who DO NOT deserve it.

Can you point me to what you mean by "this interrogative crap"? If you think that Imminst is going to tolerate and become a medium for the propagation of pseudoscience and quakery or the commercial exploitation of misinformation you are sadly mistaken.

Come on, seriously; You can read your own posts, you are the self-appointed spanish inquisition of Imminst.

Jay,

Anyone can post whatever they wiss, but leave the bile out.

***Come on, seriously; You can read your own posts, you are the self-appointed spanish inquisition of Imminst. ***

THis is the problem.

Edit: attempted to fix quoting problem.

Edited by jaydfox, 25 March 2006 - 04:56 PM.

[kevin]

People need to take responsibility for their own behavior vs having someone else recognise it and protect them from misinformation.

Not everyone is competent.

I used to think seat-belt laws were an infringement of people's rights until I saw the reduction in accidents, suffering, and cost-savings those laws brought about. Now what posesses people to not do up a seatbelt? Is it the urge to thumb their nose at being 'told' what to do by common sense?

People do stupid things that jeapordize their health and most people are unwilling to watch them pay the heavy price in misery and suffering their actions result in. Just because someone gave themselves cancer with smoking I'm not going to advocate withholding cancer treatments. I will however support making it illegal to smoke.

Saying that "people need to take responsibility for their own behavior" is of course the ideal that is never achieved. There are actually very FEW people who are rigourous in their self-analysis to the point they even know "why" they do the things they do let alone able to take responsibilty for their actions.

It just makes sense that we protect the quality of our lives by helping those with no self-control. Unfortunately our current methods have the undesirable side-effect of painting everyone with the same in competent brush. This is where technology should likely be able to help in the future.

I personally feel that there should be some questions that a person should need to answer about the basic action behind supplements including possible negative side-effects before they are allowed to order them. Much like a WHIMIS test. Of course this would cut into the sales somewhat, but if people are ordering them who don't know what they are taking or why, aren't those the people you want to put some controls on?

[jaydfox]

His execution may not be optimal (*cough* understatement *cough*)

Yes, scottl, I'm aware of the impression of his being a "self-appointed spanish inquisition".

[mitkat]

Okay scott, are you referring to my statement as a whole, or it's applicability? It's hard to tell who is going too far now [wis]

edit: Thank you scott.

Edited by mitkat, 25 March 2006 - 05:44 PM.

[jaydfox]

In theory Jay, you're right. But this is NOT a libertarian marketplace, and you are pointing out one of the many major flaws of that selfish system. Are you implying that Imminst exists soley as a libertarian society?

The libertarian system isn't perfect, but it has its advantages, such as not allowing a politically controlled federal body to regulate drugs for any reasons other than medical ones. Under the current political climate, drugs are regulated to win votes and satisfy the selfish, the uneducated, the intolerant.

But part and parcel with the need to deregulate, or at least limit regulation, is to show that the market is capable of self-regulation. Self-regulation shouldn't have to come after de-regulation, it should be part of the market regardless.

[scottl]

MItkat,

I agree with your whole post. Too much HTML or whatever that stuff is made it difficult to work with your post.

Jay, Kevin and promethius,

Bottom line why treat stuff in here any different then stuff in the general supp forum? Probably nothing in here as bad as that prostatim whatever it is called.