225 replies to this topic

[sensei]

 

 

I have been exercising everyday, eating very healthy, routinely sleeping well, and interacting with school and new environments for the past 3 years, all the while off of medications.  I have only been using supplements and vitamins, but they do not help very much, just slightly.  The last few months have been when I decided to try medications again, so I have tried a few through my psychiatrists care, with not much luck and I must admit, I am scared to damage myself anymore from medications.  I just do not know what to do or what is wrong with me, and I know my psychiatrist is just doing a guessing game and seeing what works. 

 

 

 

Time -

 

Your neuroreceptor - neurotransmitter homeostasis has to get back to normal.  You likely also need to fix an HPA axis (Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Adrenal) dysregulation.

 

It can literally take YEARS for the brain to recover from alcohol, benzodiazepines, or SSRIs -- the fact that you used/abused all 3 at the same time and threw MDMA into the mix -- well ... more recovery time needed.

 

IMHO your best bet is to find gentle herbal remedies to

 

1. regulate and heal your GABA system 

2. regulate and heal your Serotonin system

3. Regulate and heal your Dopamine system

[pheanix997]

It doesn't sound ridiculous at all - SSRI's can be known to change a person for the worst. Sensei above summarizes the best and surest route to recovery for you to take. I don't think it's wise to go back on meds unless you want to be back on them forever. Just keep in mind that protracted withdrawal sucks and it takes time. 

I was going through that for 9 months after getting off cipralex. I felt empty, tired all the time, and generally "out of it." However, I decided to go back on because I was just getting out of school and needed to land a job. Now that I've been working and on it for a year, I'm considering tapering off again..... I'm just reluctant to go through the protracted withdrawal phase again. Have you checked out the paxilprogress forum for discussions relating to this? 
 

 

Have you tried modafinil yet? I'm in Canada too and just got a script for alertec. Unless you really have ADHD I would not go down the stimulant route. Like someone said above, you'll have double-trouble once tolerance kicks in. I've been on an SSRI for three years and I'm starting to feel the anhedonia and lethargy; best thing to do is build up your dopamine supply naturally and over time. Yours is a tricky situation, I'm not sure if you should hop back on an SSRI if you've had so much trouble from it. 

Something that's important to ask yourself is, did you have any of the cognitive difficulties prior to your SSRI use? Perhaps you were too young and unaware to have picked up on or even cared about your ability to read through things fluently? 

 

Hey there, Thanks for the insight.  I have tried Modafinil, but only at 100mgs and I didnt really feel much.  I still have some of the prescription left, maybe I should try it again.  A few months ago, when I first saw my new Psychiatrist, he originally thought I had adult ADHD, and have had it from childhood.  While I could see this as a possibility, the only problem is that before I started the SSRI and Ativan, I was a fantastic reader, My highest grades in High school were in Computer classes and English classes.  I had a great memory and I could remember a book fully after reading it.  My working memory was great and I was so full of ideas.

 

Now years after, I am left in a haze.  Obviously it could be any number of things, drugs, alcohol, but I feel like the SSRIs did the most damage.  I was orginally put on them for panic and anxiety after a night of using MDMA.  While the SSRI worked just as it should and killed off any panic or anxiety, Now I do not get those anymore...I do not get much of anything anymore.  I feel like when it subdued my panic and anxiety issues, it also killed my working memory, my emotions, my character, my soul....   I know that sounds ridiculous to some, but it is how I feel. 

 

I have been exercising everyday, eating very healthy, routinely sleeping well, and interacting with school and new environments for the past 3 years, all the while off of medications.  I have only been using supplements and vitamins, but they do not help very much, just slightly.  The last few months have been when I decided to try medications again, so I have tried a few through my psychiatrists care, with not much luck and I must admit, I am scared to damage myself anymore from medications.  I just do not know what to do or what is wrong with me, and I know my psychiatrist is just doing a guessing game and seeing what works. 

 

Anyways, I am now sick with the flu, I have just woke up and not have had breakfast yet, so please forgive my grammar and content. 

 

Thanks again for all and any hep, I really appreciate it. 

 

All the best,

 

 

[jaiho]

I don't believe in time heals all. The brain is in this state for a reason, and it isn't because of substance abuse on my part.

 

Drugs like NSI-189, Moclobemide, help greatly.

If SSRIs aren't compatible steer clear, but they are an option for many.

 

 

[forexworld12]

Time healing ? Lol .....

Ask those on paxil progress(which is now closed though - for a good reason) - they have been absconding from drugs for years and believed that one day their brain will automatically reset! - don't get me wrong brain has great neuro-plasticity for automatic healing  but sometimes it may take too Long .

I knew one women who was severely in a "hell like state" after her paxil induced anhedonia depression in 2004 ... she didn't take anything not even supplements.. the people there and moderators brain washed her into believing over time brain will reset .. 10 years later she was still waiting for that day and believed it will come...!

My anhedonia was also paxil induced and i rather take 3-4 drugs for the rest of my life and be fine instead of waiting for the day  that may never come ..!

 

 

Edited by forexworld12, 18 January 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[jaiho]

Yep, it may work for some. There are far too many reports of people who have suffered this their entire lives. I don't want to be waiting until im too old to enjoy life.

So, that's why we're here. To find a treatment.

 

I'm confident the right combination exists. The extreme methods being, Ibogaine, but that's a last resort.

Ketamine is very interesting, an option im looking at soon.

 

I tried Psilocybin, it instantly lifted my depression during the trip, but back to how i was after. It was a nice experience though.

[forexworld12]

Yes, I have seen several times were people try a drug and it only helps like 4/10 for libido & anhedonia and they quit it. It's a combination of drugs that will be chronically effective.. 

[Michael Rian]

Hey everyone,

 

I had a bit of a traumatic night, I had to take my Grandmother to the Hospital.  I am feeling very out of it, partly to a bad cold/flu, and partly from the stress and worry of my Grandmas situation.  Forgive my short response, I just got home and I am trying to take my mind off of events for now. 

 

To all of you sharing your wealth of personal insight and opinion, I cannot express my thankfulness enough towards you.  I do not have many people to share this part of my life with, other than my Doctors, so it really gives me some hope that I can get better and I am not so alone in my struggles.

 

You all bring up great points.  I am not in a sound mind tonight to be making any plans of action, but I should get organized in the next day or two, since I have a Psychiatrist appointment this Wednesday.  I feel like I might have some benefit trying an antidepressant again, but perhaps not a SSRI this time around.  Moclobemide seems like an option, as due some of the older medications in the TCA class.  I still have yet to try the abilify at low dose.  Maybe I should keep the SSRI/SNRI class open, and possible use it in combination with another drug(s).  I think I might see benefit from a medication "cocktail" as suggested above.

 

I will be sure to update after my next Doctors appointment, in the meantime I will be researching drugs that I can inquire about with my Psychiatrist. 

 

Thanks again to all of you awesome people, All the best,

 

Mike

[3mp0w3r]

 

IMHO your best bet is to find gentle herbal remedies to

 

1. regulate and heal your GABA system 

2. regulate and heal your Serotonin system

3. Regulate and heal your Dopamine system

 

 

I had previously discounted herbal supplements as mostly placebo.  However I recently started taking theanine and rhodiola.  They are supposed to have a positive effect on dopamine.  I would say that I noticed an improvement in mood and energy with these 2 alone.  

 

Which herbal supplements would be ideal to regulate GABA and serotonin?

[sensei]

 

 

IMHO your best bet is to find gentle herbal remedies to

 

1. regulate and heal your GABA system 

2. regulate and heal your Serotonin system

3. Regulate and heal your Dopamine system

 

 

I had previously discounted herbal supplements as mostly placebo.  However I recently started taking theanine and rhodiola.  They are supposed to have a positive effect on dopamine.  I would say that I noticed an improvement in mood and energy with these 2 alone.  

 

Which herbal supplements would be ideal to regulate GABA and serotonin?

 

 

Bacopa for serotonin and GABA.

 

Apparently GABA may cause an increase in the number og GABA receptors (mice or rat study)

 

Bacopa also normalizes the serotonin system -- I actually have had a conversation regarding SSRI discontinuation syndrome and they recommended it.

 

And check out Science Guy's thread on Treating Anxiety, there are many references to herbs and other chemicals that have a positive effect on the GABAergic system (ie new receptors, upregulation etc).

[Flex]

I´ve used once MDMA ( taken it overall 3-4 times in my whole life) and after a couple of hours then venlafaxin, just out of panic because I thought that a serotonine reputake inhibitor would decrease the damage.

Turns out, I had roughly for 20 hours mydriasis even after a poor sleep.

I felt dull afterwards but after a week, more or less, normal again.

 

It could be that for various factors why I didnt developed what You have e.g. I hadnt a long time of alcohol abuse, but Cannabis.

Nevertheless I hope that this helps somewhat to solve Your puzzle.

 

I had recently some good experiences with Liquorice extract. My mood gets after the first 2 hours down, but gets afterwards better for the whole day.

I would be curious whether it would affect Your mood somehow, if so then an iflammation pathyway or Glucocorticoid/Mineralocorticoid receptors could come into consideration.

 

Admittely I´ve used local sweets (haribo liquorice wheels^^) but after one bag, I felt a slight increase in bloodpressure as well as the mood altering effect.

[Michael Rian]

Hello All,

 

Just a small update.

 

I have met my Psychiatrist recently and he gave me the OK to try out Moclobemide.  I have picked up the prescription and I plan to start it either tomorrow or the day after.  I am trying to find as much information on the diet and drug interactions as possible so I dont get myself into any trouble.  I have read the wikipedia entry, but I still would rather be safe than sorry.

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Moclobemide

 

I will be sure to update after a while on it.  I am hopeful that I may see some positive results. 

 

Thanks!  Talk soon,

 

Mike

[forexworld12]

Hello All,

 

Just a small update.

 

I have met my Psychiatrist recently and he gave me the OK to try out Moclobemide.  I have picked up the prescription and I plan to start it either tomorrow or the day after.  I am trying to find as much information on the diet and drug interactions as possible so I dont get myself into any trouble.  I have read the wikipedia entry, but I still would rather be safe than sorry.

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Moclobemide

 

I will be sure to update after a while on it.  I am hopeful that I may see some positive results. 

 

Thanks!  Talk soon,

 

Mike

Yes good luck, Give it time BTW .... also Micheal even if its resolves The anhedonia by lets assume 50% don't give it up but add other combination to synergize and increase The effectiveness !

[jaiho]

I've gone really downhill since i stopped moclobemide & NSI. That combo was working really good.

Right now im more depressed than ive ever been.

 

I managed to convince the doc to prescribe Parnate. The only reason i never tried it because i couldn't find anyone to prescribe it.

 

Now that i have the RX i'm hesitant to try it, not sure why.. probably for fear of interactions, especially if im travelling a third world country.

 

Moclobemide alone doesn't do much in my experience, and NSI-189 is kinda iffy for long term use

[magniloquentc0unt]

Cool about the moclobemide, damn good drug and its side effects free i would take it half in the morning and half around 2pm so your sure it wont mess up your sleep.

Jaiho why dont you just pick up moclo + nsi again? I understand the thrill to try something new and a maoi for thesake of knowing if theres a solution at all, but if youre travelling i think it might be risky

[forexworld12]

Cool about the moclobemide, damn good drug and its side effects free i would take it half in the morning and half around 2pm so your sure it wont mess up your sleep.

Jaiho why dont you just pick up moclo + nsi again? I understand the thrill to try something new and a maoi for thesake of knowing if theres a solution at all, but if youre travelling i think it might be risky

Because there is no long term safety Record for NSI ......It might be the holy grail for emotional numbness  but it's still a re-search chemical ... does anyone know How many years are we looking at before its out in the market ?

Edited by forexworld12, 23 January 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Okay, I was talking with psychologist in hospital. Guess what... she thinks that the cause is my personality xD.

How stupid this is...? I said to her that I am not able to think properly, my mind is blank all day, I can't feel, I can't recall my memories, I can't create new memories, I can't concentrate, can't make simple decisions, no motivation for even shower and I'm apathethic and anhedonic all day.  But it's personality disorder, for sure! Personality disorder is making me vegetable! She proposed me psychotherapy :|. Psychologists are weird... at least mine...

 

But the good news is that my brain isn't damaged (confirmed by tomography) but I have very high prolactine levels (2000, normal 400 - not med induced) and they think that it can be tumor in pituitary gland, so I got MRI scan and currently waiting for doc opinion. 

[Flex]

 

Because there is no long term safety Record for NSI ......It might be the holy grail for emotional numbness  but it's still a re-search chemical ... does anyone know How many years are we looking at before its out in the market ?

Cool about the moclobemide, damn good drug and its side effects free i would take it half in the morning and half around 2pm so your sure it wont mess up your sleep.

Jaiho why dont you just pick up moclo + nsi again? I understand the thrill to try something new and a maoi for thesake of knowing if theres a solution at all, but if youre travelling i think it might be risky

 

AS far as I know in 5 years, if everything goes well.

 

Okay, I was talking with psychologist in hospital. Guess what... she thinks that the cause is my personality xD.

How stupid this is...? I said to her that I am not able to think properly, my mind is blank all day, I can't feel, I can't recall my memories, I can't create new memories, I can't concentrate, can't make simple decisions, no motivation for even shower and I'm apathethic and anhedonic all day.  But it's personality disorder, for sure! Personality disorder is making me vegetable! She proposed me psychotherapy :|. Psychologists are weird... at least mine...

 

But the good news is that my brain isn't damaged (confirmed by tomography) but I have very high prolactine levels (2000, normal 400 - not med induced) and they think that it can be tumor in pituitary gland, so I got MRI scan and currently waiting for doc opinion. 

 

Welcome to Longecity..sigh

Some of us are in the same boat.

Keep allways the risks and consequences in mind if You decide or have to treat Yourself on Your own, since theres a possibility that You wont find that easy a good Doctor

-> Like: neurotoxicity via NMDA blockade + adrenergic a2 blockade, epigenetic alterations, serotonine syndrome, Bleeding, possible clotting from quentiapine and perresitent/enduring side effects, which have to be treated by a further drug and this could cause some other problems & so on.

As You see, this needs a lots of trial and error, luck and knowledge which would seemingly stay amateurish like as in my case, so consider the pro and contras

 

Dont give up the Docs, the good ones are just somehow rare, according to my personal experience.

You could also perhaps find some Docs and Psychiatrist here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskDocs/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/

[Boopy!]

SSRI won't help apathy, but can help with stimulant side effects and dominance, luvox, is by far the strongest in causing apathy which stimulants at first didn't even counteract, even no matter what dose of them I'd sleep all day, it kicked my as bus after 2 weeks it's all good, luvox, is very good if you relate to shizoprenia in one way or another.

 

Generally if you want a SSRI start with Lexa pro but only if you can also hopefully get dexamphetamine, fake adhd symptoms if you don't have it to easily get it, as depending on the doctor the most likely won't give it first line for anhedonia, and try to get memantine for tolerance, print the depression ocd study of it out and ask it for that.

 

Good luck

Hi I noticed this in passing.   Do you mean luvox is strongest in COMBATTING apathy or that it causes apathy?   I agree that stimulants do NOT combat apathy and I think they can increase it,  but are you suggesting luvox is helpful in fighting apathy?  Not sure but if so I am interested.   And yes many doctors don't have the wherewithall  (mental or the fortitude)_  to go big or go home,  so they stupidly offer a simple SSRI when the best doctors out there (few and far between where I live)  have said that you NEED to look at combos like low dosage dexamph.  plus the SSRI or something similar.   Lamictal is another thing often added to SSRIs.   It's so frustrating that they are so wimpy,   I despise people who blindly follow rules (which can be changed on a moment's notice anyhow)   to a Tee.

[Boopy!]

Okay, I was talking with psychologist in hospital. Guess what... she thinks that the cause is my personality xD.

How stupid this is...? I said to her that I am not able to think properly, my mind is blank all day, I can't feel, I can't recall my memories, I can't create new memories, I can't concentrate, can't make simple decisions, no motivation for even shower and I'm apathethic and anhedonic all day.  But it's personality disorder, for sure! Personality disorder is making me vegetable! She proposed me psychotherapy :|. Psychologists are weird... at least mine...

 

But the good news is that my brain isn't damaged (confirmed by tomography) but I have very high prolactine levels (2000, normal 400 - not med induced) and they think that it can be tumor in pituitary gland, so I got MRI scan and currently waiting for doc opinion. 

Wow there must be a real attack of personality disorders everywhere!   No,  I will tell you why the shrinks et al.  are all of a sudden -- as if it is a brand new thing --  are suddenly diagnosing everyone that walks in the door with some version of a personality disorder.   It is the same as years ago when suddenly everyone was supposedly bipolar,  anyone and everyone (even if they weren't before or later.)   They were then given the wrong medicine  (shocker of shockers,  it rarely worked)  because they were supposedly bipolar.    There was a recent conference at which the personality disorders were the main focus  (like half a year ago)  for the elites who we have deigned able to help us,  so now they won't shut up about this. Go on,  check it out and let me know -- but I really think they are all excited about this new focus and are tending to look too much in this direction.

 

Michael I don't think that any pill -- well almost any pill -- should be the only choice of therapy and I am a fan of psychotherapy WITH the medicine.   Hell I wish they would diagnose the whole she-bang,  body AND mind rather than just shoving a pill at the patient and saying it will help,  maybe.  BUT your psychologist -- the one in the hospital I mean --  is one of all too many therapists who suddenlyt are all fired up about personality "disorders"  and diagnosing them in patients.   Which one did she think you have and what led her to decide this>?

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

She said that my personality develops bad cuz I started becoming ill when I was 15, and the personality development ends by 21. Okay, maybe she's right but this is not the root cause of this, goddammit! Of course I can go to therapy but I need meds cuz my motivation and aboulia won't let me even go for therapy... Jesus Christ. I'm not even able to think about the past, don't remember old emotions, so how words can change me when I'm in this state? I hope they are smart enough to see this... Anyway, thanks for the reply, I will update soon cuz now I'm in my house. 

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 23 January 2015 - 09:06 PM.

[Boopy!]

She said that my personality develops bad cuz I started becoming ill when I was 15, and the personality development ends by 21. Okay, maybe she's right but this is not the root cause of this, goddammit! Of course I can go to therapy but I need meds cuz my motivation and aboulia won't let me even go for therapy... Jesus Christ. I'm not even able to think about the past, don't remember old emotions, so how words can change me when I'm in this state? I hope they are smart enough to see this... Anyway, thanks for the reply, I will update soon cuz now I'm in my house. 

This is laughable as personality develops over a lifetime,  begins before birth with genetics and does not develop "bad"  with illness.   Go to a new therapist,  it's your money or insurance.   I know what you mean I have been so severely depressed  (with the wrong medicine prescribed)  that I could not even get out of bed to go see the shrink....the one who prescribed me said medicine!    It is a vicious circle...one thing,  though.  Therapy (especially now)  doesn't have to focus on the past and "old emotions."   It can actually be just about active ways to go about changing reactions to problems NOW,  and the past never even has to be involved.   I react badly to anger,  for example,  and to stress,  and I already know that my past family crap made me this way,  but I don't want to rehash it over and over --  trust me,  I know.   I want to figure out how to reboot my ways of acting.  Why I am saying this is just to explain that therapy is NOT just figuring out your past influence.  Sure you fill out a form saying what such and such parent suffered from,  but you choose your therapy.   I used to think that it was all,  oh,  wah wah my mom did this,  and refused therapy for a while,  but I found a therapist who wouldn't coddle me,  who gets that all I care about is changing the way I want to change,  becoming the best possible version of me.   And if she quits being helpful she's fired.   A good therapist cannot change you anyway,  she merely leads you to the water.  But it's far from perfect and I am not trying to convince you to do therapy -- definitely not with a bad therapist.   Just making sure you know it's not all about "the past, the past,  the past"   ad nauseum.  Actually to be honest I often think a therapist for me is like a confessional for Catholics,  or a trainer,  or coach,  or surrogate parent....or to paraphrase Tony Soprano,  "like takin' a good shit."

 

But I agree,  sometimes you NEED the right medicine to set you on the path to feeling better,  for sure --  and a bad therapist can make things WORSE.   Do you know anyone who has similar issues and can recommend a GOOD shrink who really knows his meds?  Like,  the best in your area?

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Nope, no-one. I live in Poland, we're lacking of good psychiatrists/psychologists here. Thanks for the reply tho. 

[jaiho]

So i took my emergency depression hit of 300mg moclobemide + 200mg modafinil.. instant mood lift and feeling good again.

 

Going to order more NSI-189. I'm reconsidering Parnate, no point dealing with the side effects & withdrawal if i found something that works.

[Boopy!]

Well I ain't moving to Poland anytime soon,   that's for sure.   Good care is so poor in my area of the country  (the south,  southern Virginia to be specific)  and everyone knows you go north for better care but my insurance only covers my area of Virginia.   So I drive three hours away and pay almost two hundred dollars  (plus gas money,   time off work,  etc.)  to go to a decent shrink.   Actually it comes out to over two hundred for sure.   This is until I find someone good around here.   So you aren't alone in your search for health,   Michael.  At least you are being proactive --  I remember when I was so messed up in the head I could have  cared less about helping myself get better.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

What do u guys think... Is it possible that MRI machine can work as a tDCS device? I feel little better after MRI, maybe it's something different. 

[Flex]

I felt it too.

Had the feeling that it lasted for 2 days but I may be mistaken.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Yup, but this is interesting. I'm going back to hospital in monday, will update... 

[jaiho]

I doubt MRI would have any effect, likely it's psychological because you're getting things analysed and upon hearing reports from the results you're feeling different about the situation.

 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Nope, it isn't psychological (I don't react emotionally to events around me). Maybe it was from noopept and caffeine. Anyway, I'm feeling like a crap again. 

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 24 January 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[jaiho]

I understand that, i am also heavily anhedonic & emotionally numb.

While we dont feel things, i believe we are feeling things in our subconcious, and it changes how we feel, mood wise, when we have a feeling of progression.

 

The problem is our feelings are buried. it doesn't mean they dont exist