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Adderall, gift of the gods

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#1 medicineman

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:41 PM


I've only recently started playing with low dose amphetamine (2.5-5mg Adderall) and here is what I have experienced:

1- the most effective anti-depressant. I have tried almost all means, and the only one which is equally effective is ketamine (a week after 150mg im, and then fades away gradually)

2- 2.5mg makes you feel good, but doesn't create drug seeking behavior. I'm happier, more social, friendlier, less aggressive.

3- 2.5 mg abolishes the comedown off methylphenidate (the day after taking Ritalin, I reach suicidal and self destructive States. I break up with my girlfriend, I fight with everyone. I hate everyone, only to regret it the next day)

4- I am productive on 2.5mg. I study, I work, I am dedicated. If I need to extend this after 4 hours, I take another 2.5mg

5- All measures of cognition are improved. I play fps's better. I answer more questions from the question bank (preparing for mrcp, usmle, mccee). I retain more information.

6- Libido skyrockets. I become a disinhibited perv with my girlfriend.

The goal is to get to sleep when bedtime is near, and resist taking more. Low doses don't create the typical stim drug seeking behavior for me, and Adderall in low doses has barely any crash. If push comes to shove, low dose mirtazapine (<5mg) or clonidine usually abolishes any remnant of the Adderall.

No other nootropic comes close.
This is the goal of cognitive enhancement. To be in this happy, alert, smart state. I guess the ultimate goal in taking dihexa, nsi, etc. is to alter the brain, and be in THIS state forever. Ahhhhh :)

On this regimen for a week. No tolerance issues. I think such a low dose and 5mg selegiline every other day or more prevent tolerance issues. I guess we'll see.

Edited by medicineman, 28 July 2014 - 06:54 PM.

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#2 YOLF

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 07:33 PM

I think this is something I'll definitely have to look into. I've lost my attention to detail and some good habits in recent years and I've heard that adderal is good for restoring it. I saw one poster say that he would get angry with himself for getting distracted. I'm not sure I want to be angry about things, but if I can be less distracted and focus on things longer, I'd sure get alot of work done.

 



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#3 FW900

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:07 PM

Interesting writeup, MedicineMan. I'm glad you pointed out that you are also using selegiline, which makes me more confident to one day try the combination.

 

 

I think this is something I'll definitely have to look into. I've lost my attention to detail and some good habits in recent years and I've heard that adderal is good for restoring it. I saw one poster say that he would get angry with himself for getting distracted. I'm not sure I want to be angry about things, but if I can be less distracted and focus on things longer, I'd sure get alot of work done.

 

Cryonicsculture, for life-extension purposes, you are better off using a different prescribed amphetamine than Adderall. Of all the amphetamines used for ADHD, mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) is the worst for long term use. Adderall will produce the most parasympathetic nervous system stimulation in comparison with other prescription amphetamines, due to containing the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine; More NE release will lead to increased heart rate and blood pressure, more vasoconstriction. You are better off with Vyvanse or Dexedrine for occasional use, which do not contain (or will not metabolize into, in the case of Vyvanse) the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine found in Adderall. There will still be PNS stimulation, but it won't be as pronounced as long as the dosages are low. If you plan on daily usage, I will make the argument that Desoxyn (dextromethamphetamine) is the safest amphetamine to be used long-term as it produces the least parasympathetic nervous system stimulation.


Edited by FW900, 28 July 2014 - 09:12 PM.

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#4 Major Legend

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:41 PM

Lucky people...I've always wanted to try adderall. From what i've read anecdotally, adderall has somewhat different properties than dexedrine, with dexedrine more of a pure amphetamine high, whilst adderall has a more balanced feel.



#5 Duchykins

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:11 AM

Hmm, if only you had been on this regimen for 6 months before posting this, or even just one month. Alas, only a week.

Edited by Duchykins, 29 July 2014 - 12:11 AM.

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#6 medicineman

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:48 AM

Hmm, if only you had been on this regimen for 6 months before posting this, or even just one month. Alas, only a week.


with such a low dose, I don't see how it can spiral downhill, especially if I take calculated days off, cycle 4/3 or 5/2 and stay low dose. the selegiline will also help in the tolerance issue.

the goal is to stay low dose, sleep at bedtime, and know when I should take a little break.

#7 YOLF

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:56 AM

Interesting writeup, MedicineMan. I'm glad you pointed out that you are also using selegiline, which makes me more confident to one day try the combination.

 

 

I think this is something I'll definitely have to look into. I've lost my attention to detail and some good habits in recent years and I've heard that adderal is good for restoring it. I saw one poster say that he would get angry with himself for getting distracted. I'm not sure I want to be angry about things, but if I can be less distracted and focus on things longer, I'd sure get alot of work done.

 

Cryonicsculture, for life-extension purposes, you are better off using a different prescribed amphetamine than Adderall. Of all the amphetamines used for ADHD, mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) is the worst for long term use. Adderall will produce the most parasympathetic nervous system stimulation in comparison with other prescription amphetamines, due to containing the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine; More NE release will lead to increased heart rate and blood pressure, more vasoconstriction. You are better off with Vyvanse or Dexedrine for occasional use, which do not contain (or will not metabolize into, in the case of Vyvanse) the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine found in Adderall. There will still be PNS stimulation, but it won't be as pronounced as long as the dosages are low. If you plan on daily usage, I will make the argument that Desoxyn (dextromethamphetamine) is the safest amphetamine to be used long-term as it produces the least parasympathetic nervous system stimulation.

 

Hmmm... that's some good advice I think. I just read quite bit on it and I'm definitely more interested in taking vyvanse or dexedrine. I had had some side effects I didn't like with vyvanse after trying it for a couple days and stopped taking it, but seeing that it's just the common protein, lysine, that they attach to it, I don't think metabolizing it differently would really effect it all that much. I think I was taking protein supps when I was taking it including lysine, but I'm not sure if that would effect it much. What do you think?

 

I still have my vyvanse bottle, though it's a few years old, I guess I'll give it a try again and see how it works. This time around I've discovered the effectiveness of ginger capsules at calming the GI system when supplements cause abdominal pains. I take xanthigen on and off and if I don't eat after so many minutes of taking it, I'll start vomiting and if I take it too late it will have the opposite effect (IIRC) I'm looking for, so I took it with ginger caps (I have them for their antioxidant and T promoting effects) and that solved that problem completely, so I'm hopeful that this time around I can counter the GI side effects of vyvanse and potentially other side effects stemming from it with the ginger... Good idea? Bad idea? I also have a magnesium supplement in MCT gels to take with it. I think it's the citrate form?



#8 FW900

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:01 AM

 

Interesting writeup, MedicineMan. I'm glad you pointed out that you are also using selegiline, which makes me more confident to one day try the combination.

 

 

I think this is something I'll definitely have to look into. I've lost my attention to detail and some good habits in recent years and I've heard that adderal is good for restoring it. I saw one poster say that he would get angry with himself for getting distracted. I'm not sure I want to be angry about things, but if I can be less distracted and focus on things longer, I'd sure get alot of work done.

 

Cryonicsculture, for life-extension purposes, you are better off using a different prescribed amphetamine than Adderall. Of all the amphetamines used for ADHD, mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) is the worst for long term use. Adderall will produce the most parasympathetic nervous system stimulation in comparison with other prescription amphetamines, due to containing the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine; More NE release will lead to increased heart rate and blood pressure, more vasoconstriction. You are better off with Vyvanse or Dexedrine for occasional use, which do not contain (or will not metabolize into, in the case of Vyvanse) the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine found in Adderall. There will still be PNS stimulation, but it won't be as pronounced as long as the dosages are low. If you plan on daily usage, I will make the argument that Desoxyn (dextromethamphetamine) is the safest amphetamine to be used long-term as it produces the least parasympathetic nervous system stimulation.

 

Hmmm... that's some good advice I think. I just read quite bit on it and I'm definitely more interested in taking vyvanse or dexedrine. I had had some side effects I didn't like with vyvanse after trying it for a couple days and stopped taking it, but seeing that it's just the common protein, lysine, that they attach to it, I don't think metabolizing it differently would really effect it all that much. I think I was taking protein supps when I was taking it including lysine, but I'm not sure if that would effect it much. What do you think?

 

I still have my vyvanse bottle, though it's a few years old, I guess I'll give it a try again and see how it works. This time around I've discovered the effectiveness of ginger capsules at calming the GI system when supplements cause abdominal pains. I take xanthigen on and off and if I don't eat after so many minutes of taking it, I'll start vomiting and if I take it too late it will have the opposite effect (IIRC) I'm looking for, so I took it with ginger caps (I have them for their antioxidant and T promoting effects) and that solved that problem completely, so I'm hopeful that this time around I can counter the GI side effects of vyvanse and potentially other side effects stemming from it with the ginger... Good idea? Bad idea? I also have a magnesium supplement in MCT gels to take with it. I think it's the citrate form?

 

 

I'm not sure, but it is possible other things (such as the protein supplements you were taking), could have caused it. There is a lot of information published about gastrointestinal pH level and amphetamine absorption; perhaps planning a meal so your pH is altered, will mitigate GI upset? I beg to differ about how different metabolization could lead to a different side effect; adding lysine will make it be absorbed more slowly, opening the door for more side effects. The following could be wrong but based on my limited understanding of pharmacokinetics: Vyvanse will be slowly hydrolyzed in the intestines, essentially clipping lysine off before becoming dextroamphetamine. This process could be to blame for the GI upset but it is unlikely. Lactose is also slowly hydrolyzed, which causes GI problems in certain people.

 

Ginger should be fine. Magnesium is usually a very good idea to take with amphetamine for tolerance and neurotoxicity mitigation. However, the citrate form acts as a laxative and may worsen your GI problems.


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#9 Duchykins

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:58 AM

Hmm, if only you had been on this regimen for 6 months before posting this, or even just one month. Alas, only a week.

with such a low dose, I don't see how it can spiral downhill, especially if I take calculated days off, cycle 4/3 or 5/2 and stay low dose. the selegiline will also help in the tolerance issue.

the goal is to stay low dose, sleep at bedtime, and know when I should take a little break.

Wishing you success.

#10 Babychris

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 09:40 AM

The most incredible thing about amphetamine is that it's one of the few substance that let me lost my head perception. I mean I suffer from anxiety because since I have taken modafinil and had like a seizure/stroke from it I had a heavy head and more I really feel my head it's unbearable since I'm really a obsessionnal guy;



#11 knightly

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 09:44 AM

I agree that CNS Stimulants need to be added to the list, Food/Gift of the Gods.

 

But at the same time, your posting it here. And we need to get off the internet.



#12 Babychris

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:07 AM

Not get off but disminish a lot yes or in a more smart words, I had say change the "paradigm" of relationship 



#13 Kewell357

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:38 PM

Yeah, you recently started using it.

 

Wait a couple days to weeks until you develop tolerance.


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#14 YOLF

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:46 PM

 

 

Interesting writeup, MedicineMan. I'm glad you pointed out that you are also using selegiline, which makes me more confident to one day try the combination.

 

 

I think this is something I'll definitely have to look into. I've lost my attention to detail and some good habits in recent years and I've heard that adderal is good for restoring it. I saw one poster say that he would get angry with himself for getting distracted. I'm not sure I want to be angry about things, but if I can be less distracted and focus on things longer, I'd sure get alot of work done.

 

Cryonicsculture, for life-extension purposes, you are better off using a different prescribed amphetamine than Adderall. Of all the amphetamines used for ADHD, mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) is the worst for long term use. Adderall will produce the most parasympathetic nervous system stimulation in comparison with other prescription amphetamines, due to containing the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine; More NE release will lead to increased heart rate and blood pressure, more vasoconstriction. You are better off with Vyvanse or Dexedrine for occasional use, which do not contain (or will not metabolize into, in the case of Vyvanse) the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine found in Adderall. There will still be PNS stimulation, but it won't be as pronounced as long as the dosages are low. If you plan on daily usage, I will make the argument that Desoxyn (dextromethamphetamine) is the safest amphetamine to be used long-term as it produces the least parasympathetic nervous system stimulation.

 

Hmmm... that's some good advice I think. I just read quite bit on it and I'm definitely more interested in taking vyvanse or dexedrine. I had had some side effects I didn't like with vyvanse after trying it for a couple days and stopped taking it, but seeing that it's just the common protein, lysine, that they attach to it, I don't think metabolizing it differently would really effect it all that much. I think I was taking protein supps when I was taking it including lysine, but I'm not sure if that would effect it much. What do you think?

 

I still have my vyvanse bottle, though it's a few years old, I guess I'll give it a try again and see how it works. This time around I've discovered the effectiveness of ginger capsules at calming the GI system when supplements cause abdominal pains. I take xanthigen on and off and if I don't eat after so many minutes of taking it, I'll start vomiting and if I take it too late it will have the opposite effect (IIRC) I'm looking for, so I took it with ginger caps (I have them for their antioxidant and T promoting effects) and that solved that problem completely, so I'm hopeful that this time around I can counter the GI side effects of vyvanse and potentially other side effects stemming from it with the ginger... Good idea? Bad idea? I also have a magnesium supplement in MCT gels to take with it. I think it's the citrate form?

 

 

I'm not sure, but it is possible other things (such as the protein supplements you were taking), could have caused it. There is a lot of information published about gastrointestinal pH level and amphetamine absorption; perhaps planning a meal so your pH is altered, will mitigate GI upset? I beg to differ about how different metabolization could lead to a different side effect; adding lysine will make it be absorbed more slowly, opening the door for more side effects. The following could be wrong but based on my limited understanding of pharmacokinetics: Vyvanse will be slowly hydrolyzed in the intestines, essentially clipping lysine off before becoming dextroamphetamine. This process could be to blame for the GI upset but it is unlikely. Lactose is also slowly hydrolyzed, which causes GI problems in certain people.

 

Ginger should be fine. Magnesium is usually a very good idea to take with amphetamine for tolerance and neurotoxicity mitigation. However, the citrate form acts as a laxative and may worsen your GI problems.

 

I guess there's only one way to find out. I went through my drawer of old pills and it wasn't there... I must have discarded it somewhere along the line. I'll see about getting another script for it and giving it a try with the right supplements and let you know if I'm able to mitigate the GI problems with the ginger.

 

As far as I've read, neurotoxicity and tolerance don't occur with therapeutic/clinical doses. But I've read enough to know that there is always another opinion. Am I missing something?



#15 medicineman

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:24 PM

I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

#16 medicineman

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:33 PM




Interesting writeup, MedicineMan. I'm glad you pointed out that you are also using selegiline, which makes me more confident to one day try the combination.


I think this is something I'll definitely have to look into. I've lost my attention to detail and some good habits in recent years and I've heard that adderal is good for restoring it. I saw one poster say that he would get angry with himself for getting distracted. I'm not sure I want to be angry about things, but if I can be less distracted and focus on things longer, I'd sure get alot of work done.


Cryonicsculture, for life-extension purposes, you are better off using a different prescribed amphetamine than Adderall. Of all the amphetamines used for ADHD, mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) is the worst for long term use. Adderall will produce the most parasympathetic nervous system stimulation in comparison with other prescription amphetamines, due to containing the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine; More NE release will lead to increased heart rate and blood pressure, more vasoconstriction. You are better off with Vyvanse or Dexedrine for occasional use, which do not contain (or will not metabolize into, in the case of Vyvanse) the levorotatory isomer of amphetamine found in Adderall. There will still be PNS stimulation, but it won't be as pronounced as long as the dosages are low. If you plan on daily usage, I will make the argument that Desoxyn (dextromethamphetamine) is the safest amphetamine to be used long-term as it produces the least parasympathetic nervous system stimulation.

Hmmm... that's some good advice I think. I just read quite bit on it and I'm definitely more interested in taking vyvanse or dexedrine. I had had some side effects I didn't like with vyvanse after trying it for a couple days and stopped taking it, but seeing that it's just the common protein, lysine, that they attach to it, I don't think metabolizing it differently would really effect it all that much. I think I was taking protein supps when I was taking it including lysine, but I'm not sure if that would effect it much. What do you think?

I still have my vyvanse bottle, though it's a few years old, I guess I'll give it a try again and see how it works. This time around I've discovered the effectiveness of ginger capsules at calming the GI system when supplements cause abdominal pains. I take xanthigen on and off and if I don't eat after so many minutes of taking it, I'll start vomiting and if I take it too late it will have the opposite effect (IIRC) I'm looking for, so I took it with ginger caps (I have them for their antioxidant and T promoting effects) and that solved that problem completely, so I'm hopeful that this time around I can counter the GI side effects of vyvanse and potentially other side effects stemming from it with the ginger... Good idea? Bad idea? I also have a magnesium supplement in MCT gels to take with it. I think it's the citrate form?

I'm not sure, but it is possible other things (such as the protein supplements you were taking), could have caused it. There is a lot of information published about gastrointestinal pH level and amphetamine absorption; perhaps planning a meal so your pH is altered, will mitigate GI upset? I beg to differ about how different metabolization could lead to a different side effect; adding lysine will make it be absorbed more slowly, opening the door for more side effects. The following could be wrong but based on my limited understanding of pharmacokinetics: Vyvanse will be slowly hydrolyzed in the intestines, essentially clipping lysine off before becoming dextroamphetamine. This process could be to blame for the GI upset but it is unlikely. Lactose is also slowly hydrolyzed, which causes GI problems in certain people.

Ginger should be fine. Magnesium is usually a very good idea to take with amphetamine for tolerance and neurotoxicity mitigation. However, the citrate form acts as a laxative and may worsen your GI problems.
I guess there's only one way to find out. I went through my drawer of old pills and it wasn't there... I must have discarded it somewhere along the line. I'll see about getting another script for it and giving it a try with the right supplements and let you know if I'm able to mitigate the GI problems with the ginger.

As far as I've read, neurotoxicity and tolerance don't occur with therapeutic/clinical doses. But I've read enough to know that there is always another opinion. Am I missing something?

I think you are right. Only large doses significantly deplete striatal dopamine.

If you can get a script, go for a tablet that you can divide. This way you can go as low as you desire and are able to tolerate. I find therapeutic doses of Adderall (10mg bd or more) to be too much.
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#17 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:37 AM

I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

 

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.


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#18 YOLF

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:48 AM

I would think that for some the benefits would persist, even if in a different capacity... Though I have to wonder just how much weightloss vyvanse or dexedrine can cause... is it progressive? Is it a good way to lose permanent weight and achieve ideal weight? What about taking it with something like axiron for low T?


Edited by cryonicsculture, 30 July 2014 - 02:49 AM.


#19 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 04:28 AM

 

I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

 

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.

 

This is why I didn't ruin the drug for myself and start at high doses and get high off of the stuff even though the low doses I was taking did give me that  warm and in love feeling initially. 



#20 Kewell357

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 04:37 AM

 

I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

 

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.

 

 

Exactly. I have reached to the point whereby even 60mg doesn't do anything for me, unless I take them sublingually.


Edited by cryonicsculture, 30 July 2014 - 04:41 AM.


#21 medicineman

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:41 AM



I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.

Exactly. I have reached to the point whereby even 60mg doesn't do anything for me, unless I take them sublingually.

You must have :

-have ADHD in which case this wouldn't work at all or
-taken large doses, no breaks and/or
-poor sleep (very important) and/or
-chased a high, no matter how subtle

This is why I am approaching this with the most care. I don't have ADHD, so I don't need anything close to clinical doses. I take days off (holidays, drink days) every once in a while. As soon as I reach bedtime and I feel I'm jittery,.150 mcg clonidine does the job (contrast with a benzo, which causes euphoria and drug seeking behavior, I heard they call them 'the nods')

If this fails, I forego the experiment. Stimulants don't create addiction problems for me. My body rejects them completely if they physically overburden me (something resembling a non-respiratory flu-like illness. aches, diarrhea, sugar cravings, lethargy...)

I wouldn't even dare allow my self to anything remotely close to 60mg, let alone sublingual.

Edited by medicineman, 30 July 2014 - 05:43 AM.

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#22 Kewell357

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:02 PM

 

 

 

I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.
 
Exactly. I have reached to the point whereby even 60mg doesn't do anything for me, unless I take them sublingually.

You must have :

-have ADHD in which case this wouldn't work at all or
-taken large doses, no breaks and/or
-poor sleep (very important) and/or
-chased a high, no matter how subtle

This is why I am approaching this with the most care. I don't have ADHD, so I don't need anything close to clinical doses. I take days off (holidays, drink days) every once in a while. As soon as I reach bedtime and I feel I'm jittery,.150 mcg clonidine does the job (contrast with a benzo, which causes euphoria and drug seeking behavior, I heard they call them 'the nods')

If this fails, I forego the experiment. Stimulants don't create addiction problems for me. My body rejects them completely if they physically overburden me (something resembling a non-respiratory flu-like illness. aches, diarrhea, sugar cravings, lethargy...)

I wouldn't even dare allow my self to anything remotely close to 60mg, let alone sublingual.

 

 

Actually I have none of those.

 

I was on it over the course of a year. I took breaks on weekends, and on a week every 3 months. I never chased a high.

 

Adderall is an extremely powerful drug. I have tried many and this is the strongest substance I have taken.

 

I only took it sublingually because of final MBBS medical school examinations was at an inopportune time, with tolerance already set in.

 

I can guarantee 2.5mg bd wouldn't last more than a few weeks for you.

 

Also, I'm curious, Why are you writing the MRCP and USMLE?


Edited by Kewell357, 30 July 2014 - 01:04 PM.

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#23 medicineman

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:40 PM


I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.
Exactly. I have reached to the point whereby even 60mg doesn't do anything for me, unless I take them sublingually.
You must have :

-have ADHD in which case this wouldn't work at all or
-taken large doses, no breaks and/or
-poor sleep (very important) and/or
-chased a high, no matter how subtle

This is why I am approaching this with the most care. I don't have ADHD, so I don't need anything close to clinical doses. I take days off (holidays, drink days) every once in a while. As soon as I reach bedtime and I feel I'm jittery,.150 mcg clonidine does the job (contrast with a benzo, which causes euphoria and drug seeking behavior, I heard they call them 'the nods')

If this fails, I forego the experiment. Stimulants don't create addiction problems for me. My body rejects them completely if they physically overburden me (something resembling a non-respiratory flu-like illness. aches, diarrhea, sugar cravings, lethargy...)

I wouldn't even dare allow my self to anything remotely close to 60mg, let alone sublingual.

Actually I have none of those.

I was on it over the course of a year. I took breaks on weekends, and on a week every 3 months. I never chased a high.

Adderall is an extremely powerful drug. I have tried many and this is the strongest substance I have taken.

I only took it sublingually because of final MBBS medical school examinations was at an inopportune time, with tolerance already set in.

I can guarantee 2.5mg bd wouldn't last more than a few weeks for you.

Also, I'm curious, Why are you writing the MRCP and USMLE?

MRCP/paces works for local promotions, usmle/mccee to pick up a residency, or follow subspecialty in North America.

Anyhow, I'll report back once this seemingly inevitable failure occurs.

#24 Glazing Agent

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

Having gone through the ever-escalating ramp up of methylphenidate-based medication dose increases in the past, I believe there is great merit in keeping psycho-stimulant doses really low. Less is more in the long term can not be stressed enough.

Like countless others, I started on 10mg Ritalin and over the course of a year or two, found myself taking 72mg Concerta as well as 20mg IR Ritalin with no real discernible benefits aside from perhaps being able to read for marginally longer stretches of time.

So flash forward to today, 6 weeks ago I started a regime of 10mg Adderall XR. While this is a great deal more than the conservatively low doses medicineman is taking, it's still quite a bit lower than the typical dose.

 

I've had no tolerance issues thus far and still 'feel the magic' of increased self confidence/awareness/enjoyment of life/productivity that one experiences in the first week. I know it's still relatively early to make any assertions that low doses will indefinitely retain the wonderful benefits, though, from my experience with Ritalin in the past, I'd be past due for the initial effects to have faded by now.

 

From everything I've read of people lamenting these drugs not lasting, it's always been from people that escalate up their doses prematurely without taking a step back and assessing basic needs like sleep/exercise/diet. 

 

Has anyone else had a similar experience to medicineman/myself where they've deliberately kept their dose as low as possible, maintained a healthy sleep/lifestyle pattern and lost the benefits of the drug? 



#25 Kewell357

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:31 PM

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know why people are so pessimistic. I am taking 2.5mgs, up to 5mg daily. A quarter of a blue 10mg tablet. This is well below standard therapy.

Anyhow, like I said. Calculated holidays, proper sleep, keeping doses low, and I should be fine. This avoids toxicity, tolerance, and drug seeking behavior. If this fails in the longer run (I don't plan on living like this. As needed, before exams, high mental stress, etc.) I will repost about my defeat with a bowed head.

They are probably pessimistic because they felt that same magic feeling you are feeling and it faded away and never came back, even after long breaks. As others have said: good luck. Adderall will probably continue to have some positive effects for you, but they probably won't be so prominent over time.
Exactly. I have reached to the point whereby even 60mg doesn't do anything for me, unless I take them sublingually.
You must have :

-have ADHD in which case this wouldn't work at all or
-taken large doses, no breaks and/or
-poor sleep (very important) and/or
-chased a high, no matter how subtle

This is why I am approaching this with the most care. I don't have ADHD, so I don't need anything close to clinical doses. I take days off (holidays, drink days) every once in a while. As soon as I reach bedtime and I feel I'm jittery,.150 mcg clonidine does the job (contrast with a benzo, which causes euphoria and drug seeking behavior, I heard they call them 'the nods')

If this fails, I forego the experiment. Stimulants don't create addiction problems for me. My body rejects them completely if they physically overburden me (something resembling a non-respiratory flu-like illness. aches, diarrhea, sugar cravings, lethargy...)

I wouldn't even dare allow my self to anything remotely close to 60mg, let alone sublingual.

Actually I have none of those.

I was on it over the course of a year. I took breaks on weekends, and on a week every 3 months. I never chased a high.

Adderall is an extremely powerful drug. I have tried many and this is the strongest substance I have taken.

I only took it sublingually because of final MBBS medical school examinations was at an inopportune time, with tolerance already set in.

I can guarantee 2.5mg bd wouldn't last more than a few weeks for you.

Also, I'm curious, Why are you writing the MRCP and USMLE?

MRCP/paces works for local promotions, usmle/mccee to pick up a residency, or follow subspecialty in North America.

Anyhow, I'll report back once this seemingly inevitable failure occurs.

 

 

OK, I am studying for the USMLE step 2 right now.

 

Actually, it might not be inevitable, just take the necessary precautions.

 

Just some advice, the reason I ramped up to such a dose is because tolerance set in and eventually I found myself below my baseline at the original dosage, so eventually I gradually increased my dosage at every clerkship/shelf exam.

 

It probably was not a necessary step but I did it to ensure I passed...that's what messed me up.



#26 Flex

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:16 PM

The most incredible thing about amphetamine is that it's one of the few substance that let me lost my head perception. I mean I suffer from anxiety because since I have taken modafinil and had like a seizure/stroke from it I had a heavy head and more I really feel my head it's unbearable since I'm really a obsessionnal guy;

 

Do You have made a test for the Stroke ?

Can You explain what all happened ?

 

There is a way to test a stroke assumption without a MRI, which is maybe cheaper and therefore the Doctors want to do it rahter:

 

I was once by a Doctor(Psychiater) because I felt terrible after a few Antipsychotic pills and didnt want to go to the other one who perscribed it to me.
So, this Doc used a Ultrasonic device and held it on my neck( I guess on the Arteria carotis). After this he said  that everything is ok.
This is supposedly called "Carotid ultrasonography" in English
http://en.wikipedia....ultrasonography
http://en.wikipedia....ultrasonography

The Story behind this is that (as far as I know!) :
The Doc can see if there is something abnormal with the Circulation, which leads to the Brain.
If You have or had a Stroke or a Brain-Hemorrhage, this should show up because the blood ammount has changed i.e. is lower and slower.

 

But I guess its not 100% especially after a time when the Brain revasculate it self or something like that

and show therefore a "supposedly" normal circulation.



#27 SIRT1

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:46 PM

I'd suggest further research before taking amphetamines.

 

d-amphetamine is known to damage neurons and increase oxidative stress.

 

Long term studies are lacking, but may be damaging to longevity.

 

If you're interested, let me know and i'll post references.

 

 

modafinil, pramipexole or selegiline seem like safer options

 

 


Edited by SIRT1, 02 August 2014 - 11:58 PM.

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#28 Glazing Agent

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:37 AM

I'd suggest further research before taking amphetamines.

 

d-amphetamine is known to damage neurons and increase oxidative stress.

 

Long term studies are lacking, but may be damaging to longevity.

 

If you're interested, let me know and i'll post references.

 

Do you have any evidence for small/therapeutic level doses causing damage in humans? Most the research I've seen tends to favor giving rats high/extreme doses as that's more likely to give results that are significant enough to be published.

For the ADHD patient that typically doesn't have the will power to get outside, exercise or perform simple hygiene... For those that are forever floundering in social settings, disappointing others and lacking the organizational and self awareness abilities that others take for granted... This medication can be an over night god-send that may relieve depression and set them on a trajectory of realizing they do have the ability to contribute and enjoy life.

If therapeutic doses do infact infract a little damage to neurons, this (unlikely) tax is more than made up for by the new neurons and synapses that are formed when the patient is able to (perhaps for the first time) form real friendships and better care for themselves and others.

That said, taking medium to high doses of amphetamines probably poses real risks and the benefits are usually lost when doses are escalated. So while I agree with your sentiment to some level SIRT, I think the real issue at hand in that argument is the degree of use. On the low end (which is what's being discussed) there's probably a lot more good being done than bad.

I would be interested in reading that article if you would dig it up though.


 


Edited by Glazing Agent, 03 August 2014 - 12:42 AM.


#29 SIRT1

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:12 PM

 


Do you have any evidence for small/therapeutic level doses causing damage in humans? Most the research I've seen tends to favor giving rats high/extreme doses as that's more likely to give results that are significant enough to be published.

For the ADHD patient that typically doesn't have the will power to get outside, exercise or perform simple hygiene... For those that are forever floundering in social settings, disappointing others and lacking the organizational and self awareness abilities that others take for granted... This medication can be an over night god-send that may relieve depression and set them on a trajectory of realizing they do have the ability to contribute and enjoy life.

If therapeutic doses do infact infract a little damage to neurons, this (unlikely) tax is more than made up for by the new neurons and synapses that are formed when the patient is able to (perhaps for the first time) form real friendships and better care for themselves and others.

That said, taking medium to high doses of amphetamines probably poses real risks and the benefits are usually lost when doses are escalated. So while I agree with your sentiment to some level SIRT, I think the real issue at hand in that argument is the degree of use. On the low end (which is what's being discussed) there's probably a lot more good being done than bad.

I would be interested in reading that article if you would dig it up though.

 

 

 

I don't think the short term benefits of treatment are worth it, if the price is cognitive damage later in life.

 

I'd rather be treated with something that wasn't found to be damaging.

 

here's the references:

 

 

X - amphetamine (the comparison agent) caused persistent DOPAC depletion in DA neurotoxin sensitive mice - although doses were above theraputic
    (ref 1 - Methylphenidate and brain dopamine neurotoxicity, Jie Yuan et al)

X - damage of 5HT neurons in ref 2 & 5 (rodents)

X - shown to release glutamine - excitotoxicity possible
    (ref 2 - THE PROTECTIVE EFFECT OF A DIET RICH IN FISH OIL IN AN AMPHETAMINE TOXICITY MODEL OF PARKINSON’S DISEASE CHRISTOPHER M. MEDVECKY)

 

X - damaging to liver cells
Experimental studies performed in the rat liver by [10]
have proved that liver d-amphetamine metabolizes into an
epoxide, its toxic intermediate, which reacts with glutathione,
and forms GSH-adduct (GSH-S-yl-p-hydroxyamphetamine)

(ref3 d-Amphetamine-induced cytotoxicity and oxidative stress in isolated rat hepatocytes

Osama S. El-Tawil a et al)

X- implied mitocondrial damage and liver enzyme leakage, reducing cell efficiency (ref3)

review - Invited review
(REF 4 Psychostimulants and brain dysfunction: A review of the relevantneurotoxic effects
Joana Gonçalves, Sofia Baptista, Ana Paula Silva*)

X - activates neuronal microglia

(ref5 Microglial activation is a pharmacologically specific marker for the neurotoxic amphetamines, David M. Thomas et al )


 


Edited by SIRT1, 04 August 2014 - 10:27 PM.

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#30 Glazing Agent

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:16 PM

Thanks for the references Sirt.  :) 

The first study's excerpt didn't list how much amphetamine they gave the rats though the methylphenidate dosage was 10mg/kg or 120mg/kg. (We can probably safely assume they used comparable levels of amphetamine)

If this were translated into a dosage given to a 140lb human, this would be a staggering 636mg to 7,560mg... a whopping 7.5grams... poor poor animals... :unsure: 
If some of these animals managed to take the equivalent of 7.5grams of Ritalin and only suffered 'persistent DOPAC depletion', and didn't die on the spot of heart attack, that to me, speaks of how innocuous these drugs really are.

Regardless, this doesn't sound like very good science to draw any conclusions from... if those other 'safer' supplements you listed were given in comparably-high, doses, it wouldn't be surprising at all if they experienced neuronal/liver/kidney damage to the same degree, don't you think?

The third study used 50mg/kg doses of amphetamine. Again, in a 140lb human, this would be like taking 3,150mg

This is so absurd in practical terms. This 'science' is saying 'hey, when you give an animal 100-200 times what a reasonable dosage of a drug might be, bad things happen!' 

If these studies did something like give an animal 5-10times a normal dose and then observe abnormalities, then that would be cause to look into and consider the dangers. Doubtless, studies like this have been done and show the drug to be safe or haven't even been published since there were no results out of the ordinary that make it publish-worthy.

Back to the main topic at hand though, medicineman is(was?) taking 2.5-5mg (myself:10mg) and we both have been experiencing profound life changes at these lower than typical dose levels...
 

medicineman, I'd like to hear how you're making out with it lately? Still no tolerance and reaping the great benefits? :happy:







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