Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:40 PM
Posted 10 March 2018 - 01:51 AM
Actually it has. I don't think naturally induced growth hormone whether through exercise, fasting or sauna use can really meet the levels that we were at in our 20s, or more accurately the levels required to regrow a thymus in our 40's. I also don't know to what degree that MK-677 actually boosts growth hormone, there just isn't enough clinical research on it and it's a grey market item currently.
Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:23 AM
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12880677
Why mess around with growth hormone when humble melatonin can regenerate the thymus, at least in mice?
I worked out this corresponds to about 14mg/day for a human; very manageable. And it wouldn't be difficult to get a metric either; lymphocyte number is a decent proxy for thymic function.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...95/#!po=35.1852
Great finding. Thank you for sharing. I came across this for bacterial infections. This paper reviews the mechanisms, regulating inflammation is key:
Carrillo-vico A, Lardone PJ, Alvarez-sánchez N, Rodríguez-rodríguez A, Guerrero JM. Melatonin: buffering the immune system. Int J Mol Sci. 2013;14(4):8638-83.
Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:16 AM
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12880677
Why mess around with growth hormone when humble melatonin can regenerate the thymus, at least in mice?
I worked out this corresponds to about 14mg/day for a human; very manageable. And it wouldn't be difficult to get a metric either; lymphocyte number is a decent proxy for thymic function.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...95/#!po=35.1852
Great finding. Thank you for sharing. I came across this for bacterial infections. This paper reviews the mechanisms, regulating inflammation is key:
Carrillo-vico A, Lardone PJ, Alvarez-sánchez N, Rodríguez-rodríguez A, Guerrero JM. Melatonin: buffering the immune system. Int J Mol Sci. 2013;14(4):8638-83.
Regeneration of the thymus with melatonin has actually been already mentioned by member RWhigham in posts #26-28 in this thread: http://www.longecity...ntsherbsspices/
Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:36 PM
Yeah but that's after like, dosing the mice the human equivalent of 12mg per day for the human equivalent of 15 to 20 years. Not sure that's very efficient is it? Like, how long would one do this kind of extreme melatonin therapy?
Posted 10 March 2018 - 03:37 PM
Mice age faster than humans because of systemic programming including a high rate of developing senescent cells -- not because biochemistry runs "faster" in them. The biochemistry of life is much the same across the board.
I was going to get an ultrasound scan of my thymus after taking 20 mg/d of melatonin for several months last year, and 30 mg/d for another couple of months, As expected, I did not see any withdrawal symptoms. I've decided not to get the ultrasound because: I've read the thymus "shrinkage" occurs in functional cells. An ultrasound can not distinguish between functional and non-functional cells. The organ may just fill with non-functional cells.
We need an immune system test. It has been suggested that a T-Lymphocyte Helper/Suppressor Profile might provide such information. Unfortunately, I don't have a "before" test for comparison and I'm not sure its worth the expense to have just an "after" test.
Edited by RWhigham, 10 March 2018 - 03:38 PM.
Posted 10 March 2018 - 05:29 PM
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12880677
Why mess around with growth hormone when humble melatonin can regenerate the thymus, at least in mice?
I worked out this corresponds to about 14mg/day for a human; very manageable. And it wouldn't be difficult to get a metric either; lymphocyte number is a decent proxy for thymic function.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...95/#!po=35.1852
Good info, though I would like to add that melatonin, when not taken as a sublingual can upset sleep patterns and lead to dependency for sleep ime.
Yeah but that's after like, dosing the mice the human equivalent of 12mg per day for the human equivalent of 15 to 20 years. Not sure that's very efficient is it? Like, how long would one do this kind of extreme melatonin therapy?
It could be tolerable if done with sublingual.
Posted 10 March 2018 - 05:33 PM
Mice age faster than humans because of systemic programming including a high rate of developing senescent cells -- not because biochemistry runs "faster" in them. The biochemistry of life is much the same across the board.
I was going to get an ultrasound scan of my thymus after taking 20 mg/d of melatonin for several months last year, and 30 mg/d for another couple of months, As expected, I did not see any withdrawal symptoms. I've decided not to get the ultrasound because: I've read the thymus "shrinkage" occurs in functional cells. An ultrasound can not distinguish between functional and non-functional cells. The organ may just fill with non-functional cells.
We need an immune system test. It has been suggested that a T-Lymphocyte Helper/Suppressor Profile might provide such information. Unfortunately, I don't have a "before" test for comparison and I'm not sure its worth the expense to have just an "after" test.
You should mention this for future use here:
http://www.longecity...view=getnewpost
Sounds like it could be pretty useful.
Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:18 PM
Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:10 AM
QuestforLife, I looked over the second paper. Perhaps you can dumb the Lymphocyte test method down for me. Does this sample of tests indicate anything? Would higher or lower in the range be better? Sorry for being a bit confused.
Lymphocytes % Auto
Range 15-47% Multiple results 2012 forward:
30 28 29 30 28
Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:17 AM
There is so much broscience here on this site, it does injustice to the pursuit of truth...Doesn't melatonin boost growth hormone? So isn't this just sort of another way to indirectly affect the thymus through growth hormone increases?
Edited by Rocket, 11 March 2018 - 01:23 AM.
Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:41 AM
Without going into too much detail TREC/ml is the best way to determine thymic function, but it's not something we could measure. However it is strongly correlated with Lymphocyte number (see Fig 2). Lymphocyte number falls with age, see Fig 6, apart from perhaps late in life when inflammation ramps up. This isn't precise, you'd probably need multiple measurements to get a baseline, but fortunately it's a cheap, finger prick test and you could afford to do it every 3 or 4 months during melatonin supplementation to look for changes. Obviously infections will throw off results. I for one am going to do this experiment.QuestforLife, I looked over the second paper. Perhaps you can dumb the Lymphocyte test method down for me. Does this sample of tests indicate anything? Would higher or lower in the range be better? Sorry for being a bit confused.
Lymphocytes % Auto
Range 15-47% Multiple results 2012 forward:
30 28 29 30 28
Edited by QuestforLife, 11 March 2018 - 08:43 AM.
Posted 12 March 2018 - 02:17 PM
There is so much broscience here on this site, it does injustice to the pursuit of truth...Doesn't melatonin boost growth hormone? So isn't this just sort of another way to indirectly affect the thymus through growth hormone increases?
I use large doses of melatonin, get frequent blood work, and there is no....NO... Noticeable increase in hgh.
If you want higher hgh, significantly higher to the point of it being more than a blip in blood work, you need real hgh. If what I read from people using it and getting blood work, 4 to 5 IU daily will get you back to your mid 20s levels.
The peptides you buy online are mostly bunk product or underdosed product or good product gone bad.
Pramipexole gives better results than the so called ghrp crap.
My references are MY OWN blood work. I don't need to use Google to quote articles I can't comprehend.
Pramipexole raises HGH far more than MK677 per my own blood work of 50mg MK677 daily for 1 month.
Last time I ran GHR peptides, I got bunk product from a reputable source and wasted $200 on a 5 week run. Again PER blood tests. I swear to god I am the only person on this site who does blood tests to see if something is working or not,
Melatonin = nothing per my own blood work
If you want references, go out buy some product, and do pre- and post- blood work. There is your references. Quit asking for references when you can do this stuff on your own with your own body.
There is nothing anyone can do legally in the USA to raise their HGH levels to therapeutic doses other than obtain a script from an expensive anti-aging clinic.
Posted 18 March 2018 - 05:03 AM
Some clarity as to whether melatonin raises HGH, it does, but you'll only see the numbers at night and that makes it difficult to test. for. Instead, think of melatonin as a way to get 24 hour results from other HGH secretagogues or HGH itself if you are able to get it.
Also, a single does of melatonin comes back the following day, and perhaps the next few. So that is something to keep in mind.
Posted 18 March 2018 - 07:07 PM
Yeah I'd rather just go the straight route of raising HGH directly I think if I could determine what dosing, the amount, the length of time, and frequency of each dose Fehey is using. Rocket says 5IU is enough but hard to say. The HGH I found online is about $300 with shipping for 10 vials of 10 IU. That's about 20 doses at that amount. So knowing for sure what frequency and amount and length for someone my age would really help if I were to actually try this.
Edited by Nate-2004, 18 March 2018 - 07:09 PM.
Posted 20 March 2018 - 02:43 PM
SeroVital claims to be able to greatly increase HGH production. It contains Japanese catnip which is moderate sedative and will put you to sleep similar to melatonin. Part of this products effects could be from making you tired... if melatonin usually raises HGH at night and all you have to do to activate melatonin receptors is sit down and relax as if you were having your blood taken, then maybe this product works by fudging the numbers and requires lots of excess sleep to achieve the peak 682% increase continuously. Still a few of these other ingredients are good for small increases in HGH, lysine and arginine in particular have lots of data.
Unfortunately, SeroVital also contains excipients known to harm those with food intolerances and multiple chemical sensitivities. The Factor 9 branding of this product looks safe aside from the schizonepeta (Japanese Catnip).
I've tried the JCatnip for allergies, it works wonders, but the sedative effects negate any lifestyle benefit one might be expecting imo. JCatnip is usually dosed at 1g 1-3x daily, but in this formulation is dosed at less than .5g given labelling requirements and the others are mildly stimulating. Perhaps that makes it more tolerable? I'll have to experiment with lower doses. I have all of the ingredients on this list.
Posted 20 March 2018 - 06:14 PM
Earlier in the thread Norman Lazarus was talked about, the octogenarian cyclist with the thymus of a 20 year old. He obviously doesn't look 20 and if the goal of regenerating the thymus has anything to do with senescent cell clearance, then, while it may be keeping him healthy, it's not rejuvenating him in any obvious way. Sure he might look a little younger than most 80 year olds out there but that's not what we're expecting to see with rejuvenation therapies like eliminating these SASP producing senescent cells.
Posted 21 March 2018 - 10:23 AM
Earlier in the thread Norman Lazarus was talked about, the octogenarian cyclist with the thymus of a 20 year old. He obviously doesn't look 20 and if the goal of regenerating the thymus has anything to do with senescent cell clearance, then, while it may be keeping him healthy, it's not rejuvenating him in any obvious way. Sure he might look a little younger than most 80 year olds out there but that's not what we're expecting to see with rejuvenation therapies like eliminating these SASP producing senescent cells.
Even if he did have a youthful thymus, which I am skeptical of, this is not sufficient to somehow revitalize all his cells to youthful levels of metabolism and replicative ability.
Posted 26 June 2018 - 11:27 PM
Good info, though I would like to add that melatonin, when not taken as a sublingual can upset sleep patterns and lead to dependency for sleep ime.
It could be tolerable if done with sublingual.
I'm not giving you references, but if you read alot of melatonin studies starting with the one done by one of the militaries where it was given orally two hours in advance of sleep and simply realize that sublingual absorption is immediate and bypasses the need for the melatonin to reach critical levels when taken orally it should become evident to you.
Posted 27 June 2018 - 12:55 AM
Jeff T. Bowles on Melatonin: The 6 Changes in Lifetime Hormone Levels that Cause Aging – And How to Easily Reverse Them (with melatonin, DHEA, and pregnenolone)
Based on Jeff's theories I have been taking 150mg of melatonin powder at bedtime for the last two months. I have been catching a nap in the afternoon lately, but otherwise, nothing to report. Previously I had taken 30mg per day in 3 divided doses off and on the last year or so trying to replicate the spread out dosing of mice having it in their water. From Jeff's blog I now take a single larger dose at bedtime.
Re: Turnbuckle Anti-aging Protocols -- Renew your mitochondria then renew your stem cells.
Two nights ago I took the biggest hyper-fission stack that I could come up with. A smaller version of this stack in the past wiped me out for 48 hr. I guess my mitos are fixed because this time it didn't do anything. So I decided it was time to renew my stim cells. Last night I followed Turnbuckles 4 step SC protocol (update 4). Felt fine today and upped my weights as scheduled at my Doug McGuff workout today. Will continue with the SC protocol on the schedule Turnbuckle recommends..
Posted 27 June 2018 - 01:39 AM
HGH is subq. Lol. Inject into the thymus? Ouch!!! The DHEA dose was not high from what i recall in the patent. I am not going to look it up but I want to say around 50mg daily. Someone will correct me.
Recomb., HGH can be inj subq, I.M., IV.
My initial thought was SPECIFICALLY what kind of HGH??
RECOMB. HGH. "serostim"? "norditropin"?
GH peptides. GHRP2 ipamoprelin??
Posted 27 June 2018 - 04:24 AM
Jeff T. Bowles on Melatonin: The 6 Changes in Lifetime Hormone Levels that Cause Aging – And How to Easily Reverse Them (with melatonin, DHEA, and pregnenolone)
Based on Jeff's theories I have been taking 150mg of melatonin powder at bedtime for the last two months. I have been catching a nap in the afternoon lately, but otherwise, nothing to report. Previously I had taken 30mg per day in 3 divided doses off and on the last year or so trying to replicate the spread out dosing of mice having it in their water. From Jeff's blog I now take a single larger dose at bedtime.
Re: Turnbuckle Anti-aging Protocols -- Renew your mitochondria then renew your stem cells.
Two nights ago I took the biggest hyper-fission stack that I could come up with. A smaller version of this stack in the past wiped me out for 48 hr. I guess my mitos are fixed because this time it didn't do anything. So I decided it was time to renew my stim cells. Last night I followed Turnbuckles 4 step SC protocol (update 4). Felt fine today and upped my weights as scheduled at my Doug McGuff workout today. Will continue with the SC protocol on the schedule Turnbuckle recommends..
Melatonin powder? Such products as I've seen, contain mostly filler. It's like biotin powder won't be 100%, but rather something like 5%. I'd suspect the same to be true of melatonin powder. They do this to help you get uniform dosing. How much of it are you actually taking?
The bioavailability of oral hormones also declines with age. I suggest making a sublingual liquid preparation. Ideally, you want to sleep at night and have a full day.
Posted 27 June 2018 - 05:58 AM
YOLF
Melatonin powder? Such products as I've seen, contain mostly filler. It's like biotin powder won't be 100%, but rather something like 5%. I'd suspect the same to be true of melatonin powder. They do this to help you get uniform dosing. How much of it are you actually taking?
BulkSupplements Pure Melatonin Powder (100 grams)
I take approximately 150mg measured with a laboratory balance-beam scale.
An alternative way to measure would be with a packed 1/32 tsp which is quite close.
I add the measured dose to a half teaspoon of fresh DeCarlo olive oil before swallowing it.
Edited by RWhigham, 27 June 2018 - 05:59 AM.
Posted 27 June 2018 - 02:55 PM
Would you share any update after 3 months?
A small increase in white blood cell count over 3 months, but nothing else to report. I am rarely sick anyway, so might not be the best test subject.
I found I could increase the dose pretty rapidly without acclimatization, and I also experienced no problems coming back off melatonin.
Posted 27 June 2018 - 11:18 PM
@RWhigham what was this "hyper-fission" stack?
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