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Oral Pregnenolone and DHEA nightmare

pregnenolone dhea quinolone fluoroquinolone excitotoxic excitotoxicity benzodiazepine benzo ssri withdrawal

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#1 erraticpattern

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 08:37 PM


I’ll try to be thorough but concise with this.

 

I’m a 26-year-old male who has always been a high-functioning individual. I’ve been working on my PhD in computer science while simultaneously working on a Master's degree in Bioinformatics and Computational Biology. My normal hobbies are things such as whitewater rafting, hiking, mixed martial arts, and powerlifting. Normally, I am a very busy and active individual who loves life. However, since April 1 of this year, I have been in an absolute borderline-psychotic mess incapable of functioning as a normal and healthy human being. I have not been enrolled in my PhD or Masters program since April 1 since I have been and am still currently totally non-functional, and I am desperate to get my normal self back so I can continue on with my goals in life and live well as I had before all of this started. The basic story of how my life fell apart is as follows:

 

In February of this year, I visited a naturopath in my area who prescribed me oral pregnenolone MLM and DHEA to help “optimize my hormones”. On February 24, I started with 50mg of pregnenolone MLM per day and 25 mg of DHEA per day. The first week, these drugs made me feel very "off". I felt strangely intoxicated, but my doctor told me to just stick with it. By the second week, I felt fantastic. My energy was insanely high and I was unable to sit still -- I had to keep doing things and getting things done. I was convinced that the doctor was had massively improved my quality of life as I felt more energetic and unstoppable than ever before. After the second week, my physical and psychological condition began to deteriorate rapidly. I started feeling very dizzy, nauseous, extremely short-of-breath, and as though my senses were over-stimulated. I initially thought I was having an allergic reaction to some kind of food I ate since I started having major breathing problems. Soon, within an hour after taking my pregnenolone and DHEA, I would become debilitated with an extraordinary headache that felt as though my head would explode. I also started having numerous psychological symptoms such as panic attacks, episodes of delirium, and episodes of extreme depersonalization/derealization. I told the prescribing doctor on March 27, and he told me I could stop them. That day was my last dose of pregnenolone MLM and DHEA. A few days later, on the morning of April 1, I woke up in a state of delirium and extreme anxiety accompanied with intense nausea and dizziness. My entire mind had been altered in an awful way, as though something had simply “snapped”. I ended up in the ER thinking I was dying, and was fully confident that I would die in the ambulance on the way to the hospital as I was fading in and out of consciousness. An MRI of my brain showed no lesions or tumorous masses, and an echocardiogram of my heart showed nothing of concern.

 

Since then, I've had an amalgam of symptoms that feels as though my entire mind and nervous system is shutting down and/or going haywire. I've had numerous episodes of that anxious psychosis and unbearable akathisia lasting for three to four weeks in length with short breaks in-between them. This last episode started in the first week of August and is still ongoing. During the breaks, numerous physical symptoms are still present (e.g. nausea, dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, stomach pain, chest pain, shortness of breath, etc.) are still fully there, but the psychological symptoms are lessened in intensity. I've also developed chills, sweats, "brain zaps", and very intense full-body neuropathies with a progressing sense of derealization and intoxication. Whatever is going on appears to be progressing, as this past month of August has been at peak intensity with many new symptoms arising. The doctors I've seen so far have yet to determine what the cause of all of this is. I feel as though I am losing my mind and, quite frankly, the functioning of my nervous system in general (shortness of breath, loss of balance and coordination, diarrhea, extreme lightheadedness, etc.). I’ve been bedridden through much of this hell, feeling like I’ve been poisoned as I’m vomiting, having extreme nausea, unable to eat anything, and suffering from extreme neuropsychological symptoms.

 

What I’m going through seems to be similar to the absolute worst case of benzo/SSRI withdrawal (excitotoxic reaction) or worse-cast adverse reactions to fluoroquinolones. Massive disruptions in GABA and NMDA receptor activity is about the best guess I have at this point, as (1) this disruption is theorized to be central to the cause of benzo/SSRI withdrawal and adverse fluoroquinolone reactions, and (2) pregnenolone and DHEA are known to have strong effects on these receptors, promoting excitotoxicity and seizures.

 

Anyways, I'm posting this both to spread the word about oral pregnenolone and DHEA as well as to get input (advice, testimonials of similar reactions, etc.). I've been compiling a list of anecdotal reports of people who have had similar reactions, but, among those reports I can find, my reaction is the most severe and protracted in length. That may be because I remained on pregnenolone and DHEA for over a month in spite of my adverse reaction, feeling reassured by my doctor that these strange reactions are nothing but my body "adjusting to an optimal hormonal balance".


Edited by erraticpattern, 06 September 2014 - 08:39 PM.

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#2 sthira

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 09:04 PM

Wow that's scary, thank you for sharing, and I'm sorry you've had to suffer this. Did your naturopath doctor ever test your blood before and after?

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#3 Strelok

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 09:51 PM

What was the reason for your initial naturopath visit?  What did you tell him, and what was his reasoning, that caused him to give you pregnenolone and DHEA at the ripe old age of 26? 


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#4 erraticpattern

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 06:48 PM

The naturopath found low salivary DHEA and pregnenolone, but I felt absolutely fine aside from insomnia which I've dealt with literally my entire life. He advertised himself as a "Bioidentical Hormone Replacement Expert" who could help with many issues, among which is included insomnia.

 

He said he has a ton of experience in using pregnenolone and DHEA to "kickstart" the body into optimizing its own hormonal cascade. In my case, it destroyed my well-being.



#5 gnappi

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 07:53 PM

Oral pregnenolone and DHEA  gave me intense brainfog, physical weakness, and ammonia like  breath, symptoms of liver impairment. Have you noticed if your breath was changed when you were on these drugs?



#6 crazepharmacist

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:18 PM

You're not taking anything currently and have been off the DHEA/Preg for some time now? How was your sexual functioning throughout all of this?

#7 bocor

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 06:50 PM

You might want to try detoxing with lots of water and juicing and maybe a liver flush I had a similar bad reaction with preg year ago I only did 100 mg once and had bad anxiety stopped it immediately
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#8 erraticpattern

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 09:33 PM

I haven't noticed any breath symptoms, but have gotten strange metallic tastes in my mouth and weird "phantom" smells. Also typical of people going through benzo/SSRI withdrawals, so I'm of the belief that it's a toxic nervous reaction.

Sexual functioning was unaffected by the pregnenolone and DHEA.

 

@bocor:
How long did it take for the anxiety to go away for you? Since it was only one dose, I'm assuming pretty quickly?



#9 erraticpattern

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 10:42 PM

Wow. I just found the following thread,

 

http://www.longecity...135#entry686135

 

, and the similarities to my own situation are remarkable. The two cases in the thread appear to have been caused by supplementing with DAA and the symptoms lasted for years afterwards. The OP claims he made a full recovery by simply taking selegiline and aniracetam.



#10 MenDis

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 11:12 PM

You should definitely get both the pregnenolone and DHEA that you were taking tested by a lab to make absolutely sure that they are not contaminated with something else. I had a similarly horrific (although more acute) reaction to pramiracetam + choline bitartrate several years ago and wished I had held on to the supplements to get them tested. I'm sorry you are experiencing this. Best of luck. Keep fighting no matter what. 


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#11 medievil

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 11:23 PM

You shouldn't take them togheter, they have got a opposite effect on the signa receptor with induces massive widespread effects.

#12 erraticpattern

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 05:48 AM

You shouldn't take them togheter, they have got a opposite effect on the signa receptor with induces massive widespread effects.

 

Okay, but on a practical level with the situation as it is, what is the best route of action here for me?

Should I expect this to be permanent without some pharmacological intervention, or is the waiting game the best bet?



#13 medievil

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 09:07 AM

I'm gonna have to break you bad news here, it looks like you had risk genes for shizophrenia and that combination caused excitoxiticy a normal problem in shizo allready and that was your trigger, you won't be able to get back to the state you where before but this more then likely would have happened sooner or later if you had riskgenes, first line of action is taking 6 grams of fish oil a day with stops the decoration into going to shizo, as trust me I triggered shizo by the same toxicity in my brain with steroids and I didn't have a clue what was up and I went real bad, but I improved dramatically.

 

So is it only positive symptoms like psychosis you suffer from or also increased depression, anxiety, anhedonia?


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#14 erraticpattern

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 08:01 PM

I'm gonna have to break you bad news here, it looks like you had risk genes for shizophrenia and that combination caused excitoxiticy a normal problem in shizo allready and that was your trigger, you won't be able to get back to the state you where before but this more then likely would have happened sooner or later if you had riskgenes, first line of action is taking 6 grams of fish oil a day with stops the decoration into going to shizo, as trust me I triggered shizo by the same toxicity in my brain with steroids and I didn't have a clue what was up and I went real bad, but I improved dramatically.

 

So is it only positive symptoms like psychosis you suffer from or also increased depression, anxiety, anhedonia?

 

It's definitely a bit early for me to accept the theory that I've gone full-on schizophrenic without a chance of making a full recovery. Everything I'm going through is too similar to benzo/SSRI withdrawal or bad reactions to fluroquinolones (both temporary conditions resultant from a perturbation in the GABA and NMDA receptor systems) for me to believe that I'm a schizophrenic that was simply 'triggered'.

I'm not ruling that possibility out, but it's far too early for me to accept it as being true and the full picture of my symptom profile doesn't fit with schizophrenia.

 

The list of symptoms I've compiled so far is as follows:

 

-headache -brain zaps -lightheadedness -chest pain -upper back pain -lower back pain -upper abdominal pain -lower abdominal pain -generalized body pain -vertigo -dizziness -nausea -muscle spasms -myoclonus -heart palpitations -anorexia -anxiety/terror -akathisia -intrusive thoughts -depression -emotional lability -déjà vu -depersonalization -derealization -suicidal ideation -forgetfulness -stupor -insomnia -panic attacks -hypnagogic psychotic episodes -neuropathy -tinnitus -pressure in ears -vision problems -ocular pain -shortness of breath -throat constriction -sneezing and runny nose -coughing -feeling very cold -feeling very hot -metallic taste in mouth -phantom burning smells

#15 medievil

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 08:20 PM

I'm saying it looks like you may have triggered the predromal,phase only after 6 years of that you have shizophrenia and just fish oil prevents you from getting it, but the prefrontal phase has severe symptoms too, but the good news is you can recover from it.

either way your symptoms do suggest otherwise, so that's good news.
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#16 mrnootropic

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 12:29 PM

It's definitely a bit early for me to accept the theory that I've gone full-on schizophrenic without a chance of making a full recovery. Everything I'm going through is too similar to benzo/SSRI withdrawal or bad reactions to fluroquinolones (both temporary conditions resultant from a perturbation in the GABA and NMDA receptor systems) for me to believe that I'm a schizophrenic that was simply 'triggered'.

 

 

 

Hi, 50mg of pregnenolone and 25mg DHEA is way too high of a dose! Especially for a 26 year old.  5mg of pregnenolone is plenty and 10mg of DHEA is enough. I dont think you should worry, 50mg of pregnenolone would mess most people up, it is way too high of a dose. The guy saying you may have triggered schizophrenia is talking nonsense, dont worry.

 

50mg of pregnenolone is simply way too high. Taking high doses of hormones is a bad thing.

 

If i was you i would still take DHEA and Pregnenolone, however i would buy 5mg DHEA and 5mg Pregnenolone tablets, i would get Douglas Labs Pregnenolone 5mg Tablets

As for DHEA. i would buy, Douglas Labs or Thorne Research 5mg DHEA, Both available on Amazon.

 

Because you said you had Low DHEA and Pregnenolone levels which can cause problems,

Is why i would still take DHEA and Pregnenolone. however at a much lower dose.

ALSO, go see another doctor and get help regarding what to do.


Edited by Mr.Nootropic, 18 October 2014 - 12:51 PM.

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#17 deeptrance

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 08:35 PM

I just found this thread when searching for information about DHEA and pregnenalone. I've been taking both of them for 2 years, and prior to that was taking DHEA for an additional 5 years (at least.) My dosages have been approximately 50 mg pregnenalone and 25 mg DHEA. At times I have not taken one or both of them and I generally don't notice any difference, but it's very difficult for me to notice the effects of any supplements because I also take stronger "medicine" which I will leave out of this discussion.

 

I've experienced psychosis and forced hospitalization for 4 days when I was at my worst. The cause of this was a combination of post-concussion syndrome and a nearly-fatal low level of sodium in my bloodstream. This happened 5 years ago. Prior to that, I had a long history of mental health problems and chronic pain. My situation was never the absolute hell that you've described, so I can only begin to relate to a bit of it.

 

First, I am in agreement with MrNootropic about taking a small dose of pregnenalone, at least. Whether to combine with DHEA is controversial; pregnenalone is a precursor to DHEA and other hormones, so it seems slightly redundant to take both (although I do, but that is irrelevant.) I feel as though your naturopath was a bit reckless to start you on high doses of both of them, and then telling you to suddenly stop taking them altogether seems like it's once again a bit reckless. Given that you're going through hell without them, I don't see how it wouldn't be a decent idea to experiment with 5 mg of each as suggested, or just 5-10 of pregnenalone. It's possible that your body is extremely efficient about utilizing these substances, and very sensitive to variation in levels, such that you would experience violent reactions to large changes in blood levels of them.

 

Second, I also agree with the suggestion by MenDis that you should have the supplement tested if you possibly can. Even if it's from a supposedly reputable source, it may not be what it says it is. Also, human error happens in all walks of life, and so it is possible that someone mislabeled something so that you end up taking an entirely different substance from what the label says. The problem of supplements and herbs not being what they claim to be has been well documented. For example, see http://www.preventio...-theyre-labeled and http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/herbal-supplements-are-often-not-what-they-seem.html?pagewanted=all

 

Third, it sounds to me like your condition is very serious and you're not getting the best medical attention as your case deserves. You may need to see a few specialists before you finally find someone who has the capacity to recognize the possible existence of some sort of rare condition that is being missed by other doctors. This is a very common problem in the practice of medicine. Doctors mostly think in terms of common clusters of symptoms and corresponding diagnoses, so they are often stumped by unusual cases and in defense of their egos and ignorance they may pronounce you a hypochondriac or give you some other bogus diagnosis.

 

I have a friend who came within weeks of death from celiac disease about 15 years ago, because none of the mainstream doctors she saw were educated about signs and symptoms of celiac. It was a naturopath who correctly diagnosed her, and she was rapidly restored to health by a strict diet. Celiac disrupts absolutely everything in the body and brain. You may have a similar type of situation, where a single underlying cause is bringing about a massive number of seemingly-unrelated symptoms. If this is the case, a correct diagnosis and treatment will give your life back! 

 

So I think you have to take matters into your own hands and demand the proper investigation of your case by specialists in any field that could be related to your problems. And do question the legitimacy of the supplements you took. If you start taking pregnenalone and/or DHEA again, I recommend buying it in bulk as just the pure substance, not in a branded capsule or tablet. Especially avoid unknown brands or any that have labels and ads proclaiming the virtues of the product. I buy almost everything as bulk powders (and I take about 60 different herbs and supplements!), and I've only had one or 2 problems of getting something that is not what it claims to be. This contrasts with the 30% of supplements found to be fakes in the Prevention article I linked to. Beware of that article too, though, because they list 3 brands that are supposedly free of contaminants and yet GNC has a poor track record in this area and I wouldn't ever trust any product from there.

 

Get closer to the source. The sellers of bulk powders have the most to lose by selling fake product and are probably the most likely to have products tested, but that process can fail too so... take your health into your own hands and listen to your body. If a doctor tells you to take something that makes you feel like shit, stop taking it. If they tell you to stop and that makes you feel even worse, try tapering off or cutting the dose instead of quitting cold-turkey.



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#18 researcher

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 08:15 AM

An interesting similar story from the reviews section of a pregnenolone MLM formulation on Amazon:
 

Reviewed in the United States on May 31, 2016

DANGERSOUS!!! Not just this brand but all brands of pregnenolone. Before rushing in to take this, best read this as this is what has happened to me. I trusted my NP to know what she was doing, and failed to research this as I should...my mistake. If your body metabolizes ANYTHING slowly right on down to advil, you need to avoid this hormone at all costs (as well as many others). Pregnenolone is at the top of the hormonal cascade meaning that everything is made from it as far as steroidal hormones (testosterone, aldosterone, cortisol, & DHEA.. Estradiol & progesterone synthesis is impaired without a uterus and ovaries. Pregnenolone is also a GABA (one of the "feel good" neurotransmitters) antagonist which means that GABA cannot bind to the receptor sites because of the pregnenolone. My experience with this has been a nightmare. I first took it approximately 3 months ago at half dosage, without any side effects (nor did I notice any benefit!). About 5 weeks ago, I noticed that something was very wrong, fear of driving (never had it in my life), feeling overwhelmed, depressed, anxious and unable to sleep. Not realizing what it was, I thought it was a bit more stress in my life. Not true! Then came the onset of severe palpitations, extreme terror and inability to function coupled with extreme agitation and anger, sensory overload and thoughts of imminent death. Bottom line, I am awaiting results of wearing a holter heart monitor to see how much damage this has done to my heart, praying that it will return to normal and I won't have to have some very serious interventions. So, do your research on this hormone BEFORE you let anyone talk you into taking it...it does not always do what it should with everyone. One online proponent of it years ago has radically changed his tune in recent months as to how much of this substance most people should take. His recommendation? 1-3 mgs with holidays from it. Your liver is in place to protect you from this type of thing, this particular brand is micronized and made lipid soluble so that it avoids the liver on the first pass and goes directly to the blood stream. (Read the label). This in and of itself is highly dangerous for a substance like this.

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: pregnenolone, dhea, quinolone, fluoroquinolone, excitotoxic, excitotoxicity, benzodiazepine, benzo, ssri, withdrawal

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