66 replies to this topic

[justinb]

You are quite right, I am a very immature kid. I am a complete punk. About half a dozen of the things I have said since I came here were completely inappropriate. I am honesty embarrased and disgusted my some of my behaviour. Having said that, please listen to what I have to say. I am quite frankly sick and tired of coming here everyday and seeing all of the nonsense being posted all over. Of course, you think I am an absolute hypocrite for saying that because of the silly crap that I post...

I came here to find like minded individuals. Not people that can't understand science and ignore or disrespect people's arguments just because they disagree with them. (I am refering to a lot of people, not just Don. I seriously believe I am acting out on these forums out of misplaced rage. Rage towards all of the insanity I have had to put up with my entire life. First it was religion that I found completely despicable. Then it was with politics that completely ignored reason and humanity. Now it is with people that don't understand science and simply speculate on concepts they can't even begin to comprehend. We are fighting for our very lives! Can't you people get that? We are not in some science fiction novel or film. I absolutely HATE lies, especially if they are ruining a good thing. I think it is time for all of us to grow up. Stop talking about becoming "more then human" and realize who you are. I mean, it is absolutely insane. We are talking about living for a long time, hopefully forever. There is no way we can do that if people believe in pseudoscience and don't strive to understand themselves! I seriously don't know what I should do right not. Ball my eyes out or punch several wholes in the wall. PLEASE, for the love of life realize that you guys are living in a fantasy world. Stop, just STOP for one second and please reflect on what you believe in and why you do so.

Now, realize that we are the only people in the world, other then isolated scientists, that can really do something about the death of humanity. Lets stop bickering about absolutely trivial issues. Who cares what we think, I am serious. Instead of talking about doing something, lets actually do it. I posted a thread similiar to this post awhile ago, near the time that I joined. Since then, nothing has changed.

I am not making excuses for my behavior. Lets get that straight right now. I a simply explaing why I acted the way I did. I shouldn't have done it, and I did and I take full responsibility for it.

Edited by justinb, 29 July 2005 - 05:50 AM.

[Infernity]

We all realize it sooner or later, so it seems. Welcome JustinB 2.0

-Infernity

[DJS]

Who cares what we think, I am serious.

But thinking about how to approach the problem of our mortality is one of the most important aspects of our endeavor. For instance, should one try to enter into the field of traditional molecular biology, or instead go for brain-computer interfacing (BCI). Both ways represent a potential path to indefinite extension of life, but which one do you choose?

One of our advisors, Peter Passaro is very optimistic on the BCI side of things. And then on the other side you have, you have Aubrey and SENS. Or will the two sciences merge in the coming decades? How does one position oneself for these changes?

So, even though, sometimes the philosophy can get a bit dense here, it is also usually related in some way to the concept of *preservation of self*. Without a perfect understanding of consciousness, how could we ever hope to transfer over to another substrate? (thus attaining a much stronger form of indefinite life extension)

Now, realize that we are the only people in the world, other then isolated scientists, that can really do something about the death of humanity.

I posted a thread similiar to this post awhile ago, near the time that I joined. Since then, nothing has changed.

We do what we can do, right? We are humans after all. I've put myself back into school, I have other projects running besides what I do here. Most Immortalist are very busy people -- some, I think, may spread themselves to thin. The community itself is so small that you have to give it some credited for what it has accomplished so far -- I mean, just think about the fact that most religions have millions of followers. Can you imagine how fast Immortalism would change the world if it had a million members!

[Infernity]

Justin,

As more as the community of antideathists grows- the more moral the idea of immortality shall be.
When there won't be a big percent of objectors- it will work much faster, and will be encouraged by many, and the demand will press.
Hence it helps a lot also in the social aspect.

This is a way to share ideas and resources.
We can explain each other many things, and teach, and learn, maybe one of us will have a breakout, most of us here also study, I believe this community also symbolizes who you should share as a scientist your breakthroughs that have to do with life extension.
We do get the idea of the way solving it, what's being asked, were we should focus, and of course, the people you wish to share it all with...

More, you can learn and advice here about general health to keep you healthy.
We discuss here about nutrition, exercise, diseases, both what you should and should not do to keep us healthy, which supplements to take, etcetera.
We can extend our lifespans from the small things we learn here, it seems we learn better while chatting with sympathetic people rather than just reading researches that mostly include too much information to remember all at once, and can't even ask about what is not clear.

These are just examples.
There are more benefits. If you don't REALLY find it worth, why did you pay for becoming a full member?
It means it does mean something for you, the intentions of immortality, people like you, who knows we don't deserve to die; Is is not so?

-Infernity

[justinb]

But thinking about how to approach the problem of our mortality is one of the most important aspects of our endeavor. For instance, should one try to enter into the field of traditional molecular biology, or instead go for brain-computer interfacing (BCI).

Ok, for starters BCI is bollocks. I have spoken with a brilliant neurologist about it and he said that it is pure pie-in-the-sky fantasy. I have also spoken with other MDs about it and they have said samiliar things.

So, even though, sometimes the philosophy can get a bit dense here, it is also usually related in some way to the concept of *preservation of self*. Without a perfect understanding of consciousness, how could we ever hope to transfer over to another substrate? (thus attaining a much stronger form of indefinite life extension)

The philosophy is not dense, that is part of the problem. We have a very small understaning of consciousness, we really have no idea what it is and no one here, and I hate to be blunt, but absolutely no one here even comes close to being smart enough to figure it out. Some of the greatest intellects in the world have been working on that problem for a very long time and they still have no idea what consciousness is.

Infernity,

Most if not all of the information here can be easily learned outside of ImmInst and even the internet to a great extent. The only exception to this is the bioscience forum, since that generally contains bleeding edge information.

It means it does mean something for you, the intentions of immortality, people like you, who knows we don't deserve to die; Is is not so?

Of course it does, and that is why I am upset with many of the people here. Instead of devoting their lives to science or business, they simply tag along and try, and usually fail miserably, to grasp advanced concepts. Right now SENS and the Methuselah Foundation are the only promise for radical life extension. All of the pseudoscience here doesn't even come close to anything resembling real science.

Having said all of that. ImmInst serves as a platform for immortalists to get together and say "see, we are not alone afterall!" Other then faciliting some communication between scientists, the people that are actually doing something, ImmInst doesn't seem to do much at all. I hope that the documentary will open some people's eyes, but for some reason I don't think it will do much. I sure hope it does though, of course.

[Infernity]

Justin,

Most if not all of the information here can be easily learned outside of ImmInst and even the internet to a great extent. The only exception to this is the bioscience forum, since that generally contains bleeding edge information.

1. The information over here is gathered, and motivated by immortalists, with all one grand goal.

2. Sympathetic communication, again- with same goal... It's easier to develop these things when you know where people will argue, and you learn how to explain things to the open world, at least I do, I've learned so much since I joined ImmInst, and it also gave me HOPE. To know there are people who wish to live without limits and understand what I always meant!
Well, I can say that my English has improved a lot too, but that's another story.

3. There is a difference between friendly amusing childish conversations and low useless annoying spam childish comments.
You should learn to find the line whom separates it. Once you start with these useless annoying comments, even if you do have serious meaningful posts every once in a while- people starting not taking you seriously, that's what I was afraid of also, luckily I got myself before, and I don't know what you think, but I don't think I went too far with my posts, they were just silly and childish, but not annoying. When you post nonstop spam, people will start ignoring, when you post wise things every once in a while, and nothing else, they, I believe, will take your words seriously. It's hard to take it back once people think they already got your point, when it is as it is.
People tend to remember bad things about people rather than contributes. Beware.

-Infernity

[justinb]

I completely agree with you. Plus, my life is just starting so I wont spend much time on here anymore, so I will post serious comments only.

The thing is, most of the threads and posts here cannot be taken seriously. There are a few great gems here and there, but the rest is just garbage.

[John Schloendorn]

Justin, please don't panic. A a handful of singularity believers at imminst must not distract you from doing what it takes. There is no need to rush, we have a life-time to do this. If we are patient, sit back, tell the gems from the garbage and pick the gems with determination, then we can have some hope. A few gems in the garbage is much better than what you get nearly anywhere else! The garbage around the gems does not impair the utility of the gems, if you cultivate your sense to tell one from the other.

I have spoken with a brilliant neurologist about it and he said that it is pure pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

Same holds if you speak with ~90% of the world's most brilliant molecular biologists about SENS. However, by chance I do agree with you on your assessment of BCI as a first step to extend our personal life-spans. Before we have the results, it is and remains a matter of scientific intuition. Point is, you need to get yourself a scientific intuition ASAP, but that still means years. You have these years. Make the best use of them.

[kevin]

Justin,

I know how you feel... in spades. Sometimes I think I'm a little unstable... well know I'm a little unstable when I see the state of things in stark contrast to the promise of the future if people would just wake up to it. The alleviation of suffering and misery is possible if people would just get it together.

I have also spoken with other MDs about it and they have said samiliar things.

These are the same MD's who have offered me the opinion that regeneration using stem cells will not happen in their lifetime and who are actively trying to block me from setting up a table in one of our hospitals to try and hand out information on the Mprize. They are fatalistic/pessimistic and possibly the WORST source of opinion on the feasibility of any life-saving science which doesn't fit the status-quo of their world view. Being the front line in dealing with the McDiseases of present day lifestyles gives them a first hand view of the inability of people in general to discipline themselves to live a healthier life and as such their pessimism is understandable, however, please ensure that you temper their opinions with a big dose of the reality of the pace of progress.

ImmInst's most valuable aspect is by far the ability to interact with others who do not, and more importantly ARE NOT, taking the status-quo in regards to the development of technologies to extend life as acceptable. As Don said, those who see the importance of agitating for faster progress are very busy people, perhaps too busy but hey, no one else is going to do it.


Basically its up to each individual to use whatever time, skills and resources he has at hand in a manner which they consider best spent.

I don't think you'll find as many individuals as involved and actually DOING things anywhere else, and that is why ImmInst has been successful thus far. Its not the forum software, or the constitution, or even the quality of the posts... it's the committment we share to making the involuntary erasure of people a thing of the past, and we're willing to put some effort into it.

As for not spending as much time on the boards.. spend as much time as you feel you need and when you feel an unbearable pressure to do something to right the injustice of an uncontrolled biology.. when the need to scream that the world just isn't fair gets too great..

GET OUT AND DO SOMETHING!

ImmInst will be here when you need to regroup and share your failures, successes, insights and outrage.

[Kalepha]

Something that probably gets overlooked often, Justin, is B.J. Klein’s vision. Acknowledged is the prominence of ImmInst’s major projects for those who are immediately ready to participate in particular kinds of strategies. But besides being guided by a principle that precedes even culture, more than any other transhumanist organization, Immortality Institute is the gate.

[justinb]

I am sincerely greatful for all of your understandings.

On that note.

John,

The MD that I spoke with was responding to uploading, not BCIs in particular. Anyways, the problem with BCIs is that they are way too primitive to be touted as anything significant at this point.

Kevin,

The MDs I am speaking with are in favor of anti-aging, some of them are just pessimistic and are definitely not lacking in their reasons for being so. Plus, like almost any biogerontologist they lack the time to make a thorough assessment of SENS. They just know that it is going to be a very long road.

Nate,

I agree with you, ImmInst is a gate and a damn good one, as I said earlier. But, it isn't more then that, in my opinion. It's very significant for immortalists like ourselves, but insignificant, unfortunately, in the general fight against aging and all forms of death. It needs to become a lot more, and to do that it needs to first look at some of its problems; such as the support and embracement of pseudoscience.

[Kalepha]

I agree with you, ImmInst is a gate and a damn good one, as I said earlier. But, it isn't more then that, in my opinion. It's very significant for immortalists like ourselves, but insignificant, unfortunately, in the general fight against aging and all forms of death. It needs to become a lot more, and to do that it needs to first look at some of its problems; such as the support and embracement of pseudoscience.

I understand. But perhaps I was a little too subtle. I was simply also trying to suggest that the forums facilitate discussions over a wide area of topics, some probably not so worthy of being on an otherwise naturalistic and scientific board, yet what the serious immortalist sees are the major projects being pursued, not necessarily the clutter, so to speak. I don’t think these major projects are established upon psuedoscience.

[kevin]

justin,

Almost everyone you speak with is in favor of anti-aging. NO-ONE enjoys falling apart.

Medical doctors however have a bit more responsibility than the average person and it is incumbent upon them to become informed or they should temper their skeptcism with the admission that they are not. This is not what happens. More often then not they offer their opinions based on the limited knowledge they have without stating the caveat that 'they don't know enough to make an accurate assessment'. Unfortunately, people who trust those who are in charge of our health are not informed either.. a sad situation and one that can only be rectifed by the education and ground-up transformation of medical practice which treats aging as 'normal' in elderly but something horrible when afflicted on the young as in diseases such as progeria or werner's.

Additionally, it is one thing to be pessimistic, but to actively block the efforts of others who are less so goes beyond pessimism and into the realm of obstruction.

And in regards to artificial intelligence and uploading, you should not be so quick to dismiss the faster than exponential growth of the power of computers lest you be guilty of the same crime of linear thinking which you accuse others.. Again, I would caution against relying on the 'expert' opinions of others and urge you to do your own digging and extrapolate your own trend lines... and above all.. think out of the box.. because its boundaries are rapidly blurring.

[justinb]

Kevin,

The problem with uploading is not one about computer power but weither or not we can completely transform ourselves into a machine, which no-one has proved scientifically that this is possible. They simply state that because technology is progressing so rapidly that all sorts of great things will become possible one day. This is a very illogical position in my opinion. We don't even understand consciousness yet... lets not jump ahead of ourselves. The problem I have with many things on this board is the gross unceptualized state they are in. In science you have to be precise. Simply stating that we are electrical impulses and that those can be duplicated is ignoring A LOT. When we talk about something we have to be extremely precise. It seems that many just put two and two together without doing much thinking at all.

Nate,

The foundations of most speculative ideas here are based in science, the conclusions of many of these speculations are not. Science is all about precision that can be duplicated and communicated. I.e. shown to exist. Speculative ideas have been around forever and most of them don't pan out.

[Kalepha]

The foundations of most speculative ideas here are based in science, the conclusions of many of these speculations are not. Science is all about precision that can be duplicated and communicated. I.e. shown to exist. Speculative ideas have been around forever and most of them don't pan out.

In that case I’d be interested in understanding which of ImmInst’s major projects go beyond informed hypotheses.

One might also keep in mind that some spend a great amount of time acquiring the skills to analyze risk. Even the most informed investigations sometimes involve a high level of abstract inference because of possible costs in not taking particular chances.

[kevin]

justin,

Everything science starts out being is hypothesis. I think you would agree that there is nothing inherently impossible about uploading. Where I think you and many others would also agree, including myself, is that to rely on very very iffy speculative prospect of such a possibility emerging within the timeframe my biological lifespan is a very thin thread on which to hang the hopes of my continued existence.

I think you would also agree that at least at the moment, the lions share of discussion on this board reflects the (I feel) proper position of uploading as a way of obviating death at this point. Until more developments are made in AI, bio and nanotech are in their rightful place as the center of attention.

One thing I've learned in my not so long life is never EVER discount the improbable, but also never rely on it.

[justinb]

The foundations of most speculative ideas here are based in science, the conclusions of many of these speculations are not. Science is all about precision that can be duplicated and communicated. I.e. shown to exist. Speculative ideas have been around forever and most of them don't pan out.

In that case I’d be interested in understanding which of ImmInst’s major projects go beyond informed hypotheses.

One might also keep in mind that some spend a great amount of time acquiring the skills to analyze risk. Even the most informed investigations sometimes involve a high level of abstract inference because of possible costs in not taking certain kinds of chances.

I don't want to point fingers. You do know that I think uploading is impossible now, and rather dubious in the near term; meaning within the next 30 to 50 years.

[justinb]

justin,

Everything science starts out being is hypothesis.  I think you would agree that there is nothing inherently impossible about uploading.  Where I think you and many others would also agree, including myself, is that to rely on very very iffy speculative prospect of such a possibility emerging within the timeframe my biological lifespan is a very thin thread on which to hang the hopes of my continued existence.

I think you would also agree that at least at the moment, the lions share of discussion on this board reflects the (I feel) proper position of uploading as a way of obviating death at this point.  Until more developments are made in AI, bio and nanotech are in their rightful place as the center of attention.

One thing I've learned in my not so long life is never EVER discount the improbable, but also never rely on it.

I agree, although speculative ideas are just that... speculative. What I am saying is there is no reason for us to seriously consider uploading right now since it really isn't even an idea, it is more of a dream. What I mean is, we have absolutely no idea what we are talking about. And until we do, lets stop relying on it.

[Kalepha]

If you don't understand the statement "Even the most informed investigations sometimes involve a high level of abstract inference because of possible costs in not taking certain kinds of chances" then I should leave this alone.

[Kalepha]

And please respond to "In that case I’d be interested in understanding which of ImmInst’s major projects go beyond informed hypotheses."

[justinb]

If you don't understand the statement "Even the most informed investigations sometimes involve a high level of abstract inference because of possible costs in not taking certain kinds of chances" then I should leave this alone.

Yes, I understand. And yes, thinking about such things is important but we shouldn't rely on them until they become much more concrete then they are now.

[Kalepha]

This is where the concept of division of labor might be of use. You, Justin, don't have to put your eggs in one basket. If you believe cognitive science is essentially going nowhere and you are not worried about neurohackers achieving transhuman intelligence before you do, then there should be nothing stopping you from pursuing your self-declared path. If these other topics are too speculative for you, then you need not participate.

[justinb]

If transhuman intelligence happens then there is no way I am ever going to catch up with them anyways, so....

You don't get what I am saying, we don't even know if it is possible to do anything that is speculative.

[Kalepha]

That's fine, Justin. Then you simply don't find certain costs to be as high as they might be for others.

[justinb]

And please respond to "In that case I’d be interested in understanding which of ImmInst’s major projects go beyond informed hypotheses."

I don't want to get into a long, drawn out debate that will lead nowhere and that may cause animosity. I like and respect you. I don't want to become enemies over defering views concerning speculative enterprises.

[Kalepha]

I don't want to get into a long, drawn out debate that will lead nowhere and that may cause animosity.

If you're not going to explicate what's wrong, then it's pointless to be ambiguous about ImmInst's major projects being established upon pseudoscience.

I like and respect you. I don't want to become enemies over defering views concerning speculative enterprises.

I don't think the issue is so much about differing views on enterprises as much as it is about ImmInst's major projects.

[justinb]

If you're not going to explicate what's wrong, then it's pointless to be ambiguous about ImmInst's projects being established upon psuedoscience.

Well uploading right now is not conceptualized properly, so until it iswe shouldn't rely on it.

The singularity, which I know you are greatly emotionally invested in, isn't guaranteed to happen.

Nanotechnology may not happen for awhile, perhaps even 50 to 100 years, so there is no point to rely on that either. It may never happen! You have to except that may be true. I, of course, want nanotechnology to happen but I also know that it also isn't gauranteed.

[Kalepha]

Which one of ImmInst's major projects focuses on uploading?

And why do you evoke, in particular, uploading in response to an evocation of transhuman intelligence?

[justinb]

Which one of ImmInst's major projects focuses on uploading?

And why do you evoke, in particular, uploading in response to an evocation of transhuman intelligence?

ImmInst speaks about uploading like it is guaranteed to happen and that all we need to do is make it happen.

There are two major types of transhuman intelligence.

The first one is A.I.

The second one is humans that upload and become ultra intelligent.

A.I. has a long way to go and our understanding of consciousness is still in the fetal stage.

There is no reason to believe that true, yet alone human level AI, transhuman intelligence is possible within a meaningful time period. We should focus on things that we know can make a difference now, like SENS.

[Kalepha]

Brain-computer interfacing is also a path to transhuman intelligence, as you acknowledged earlier. Justin, which of ImmInst's major projects exclusively focus on transhuman intelligence?