66 replies to this topic

[Karomesis]

justin, you might be a punk, or a loudmouth, but your taste in females is without peer. That girl in your avatar is breathtaking, i couldn't have picked a better one myself [thumb]

on the uploading theory, I'm working on it [glasses] I'll be damned if I'm not one of the first to download the internet into my brain, or what's left of its primitive cuircuitry when it happens.

even the most staunch conservative on this forum has to concede that radical, and unpredictable change is in our immediate future. uploading will be the beggining of the expansion of the concious outward from our planet, And the first step in the transformation of the known universe.

[justinb]

justin]

on the uploading theory, I'm working on it  [glasses]  I'll be damned if I'm not one of the first to download the internet into my brain, or what's left of its primitive cuircuitry when it happens.

even the most staunch conservative on this forum has to concede that  radical, and unpredictable  change is in our immediate future. uploading will be the beggining of the expansion of the concious outward from our planet, And the first step in the transformation of the known universe.

Yes, my tastes are not bad. [tung]

My problem with uploading is that it is not even conceptualized, it is not real. So, when we talk about uploading we are talking about something that doesn't exist. ImmInst isolates itself by supporting such things.

I got a pamphlet from ImmInst that had 4 bullet points mentioning transhumanism.

Uploading.
Singularity.
Transhumanism.
Nanotechnology (as envisioned by trans and post humanistic theorists).

I don't like this one bit. All it does is make ImmInst look like a cult, which further isolates an already isolated sigment of the population. We need to expand our reach to all immortalists, open-minded deathists and even to some closed-minded deathists. After all, doesn't everyone deserve to live for as long as they want?

[Kalepha]

Justin, is this a reflection of your own future shock? Or do you genuinely believe that everything that occurs in reality cannot in principle be described in terms of physical processes, that progress isn’t being made in the relevant areas, and that all should follow your agenda just because of either your future shock or your disbelief of the progress in the areas in which you don’t happen to be interested?

I think you have an entirely wrong impression of science and risk management, along with having an unreasonable tendency to appeal to authority. If you don’t think science is propelled by values, think again. If you think everyone has equivalent cost-benefit conceptions, think again. If you think so-called authorities are always reliable and have your best interests in mind, think again.

[justinb]

Justin, is this a reflection of your own future shock? Or do you genuinely believe that everything that occurs in reality cannot in principle be described in terms of physical processes, that progress isn?t being made in the relevant areas, and that all should follow your agenda just because of either your future shock or your disbelief of the progress in the areas in which you don?t happen to be interested?

I think you have an entirely wrong impression of science and risk management, along with having an unreasonable tendency to appeal to authority. If you don?t think science is propelled by values, think again. If you think everyone has equivalent cost-benefit conceptions, think again. If you think so-called authorities are always reliable and have your best interests in mind, think again.

My problem with it is that we don't know if it is possible or not to upload ourselves; we don't even know what uploading ourselves means. Yes, ultimately I do believe that everything can be described through physical processes. The problem is we don't know the physical laws well enough and we don't know what consciousness is. We don't know if it will ever be possible to upload ourselves. Simply saying that it will oneday be "figured out by science" is obviously a logical fallacy. There is no reason why it is possible. I would really like to hear a reason why it would be possible, noone has presented me with a solid reason yet. More importantly, which I keep on irriterately in this thread, is that there is no coherent idea or even a hypothesis on what "uploading" is. It is not conceptualized in any meaningful way! Most people that talk about it simply say that since we are electrical signatures that there is no reason why we wont be able to duplicate those signatures in an artificial environment. That frame of mind only illuminates the person's ignorance and lack of scientific insight; even if that person is brilliant, they are still full of you-know-what.

[Kalepha]

But this issue isn’t over the truth value of the statement “uploading is possible,” because you and I probably both agree that no one can say whether it’s true or false. The real issue is over the deontic statement “some human minds should manipulate their mental structure so that they’re no longer guided by the inclination to transfer consciousness over substrates” (which is what uploading is, as Don explained earlier).

Why you think this ought to be the case is problematic, as it would be if anyone else, those of which you claim to be speaking on behalf, thinks it ought to be. All else equal, only two outcomes could result from there being some mental structures that contain a goal of transferring consciousness over substrates: success or failure. Since no one knows with any certainty the truth value of “uploading is possible,” then no one knows that being guided by a goal of transferring consciousness over substrates will result in failure.

Suppose some mental structures contain the goal to upload. Through taking action toward this goal, along the way the particular community learns a large amount more of science and philosophy. Regardless of the outcome, the community improves. But still, failure, which would be inconsequential (all else equal) and if that was actually the result, couldn’t have been predicted at the outset. Hence, the statement “some human minds should manipulate their mental structure so that they’re no longer guided by the inclination to transfer consciousness over substrates” is permissible not to be the case.

[Edit: To be more obscure, though perhaps more accurate, deontic notions are used in place of some instances of bivalent notions.]

Edited by Nate Barna, 01 August 2005 - 04:31 AM.

[justinb]

The community, ImmInst.org, isolates itself from potential powerhouses of intellect and tycoons of industry by appearing to be a cult. The problem has nothing to do with whether uploading is true or not because uploading is a non-existant scientific concept, it is simply a ghost concept that fullfils current anthropomorphic needs for immortality and power. Lets understand who we are before we change ourselves. We will get a lot more respect from influencial people that way and we will completely change ourselves without having to do it on a drastic physical level. Lets become philosophers of humanity.

[Kalepha]

Do what you will. Games can be and are played on multiple levels simultaneously, and what's ultimately accomplished is relative to stipulated levels. But if it makes you most comfortable to play on one level only, do what you will.