66 replies to this topic

[justinb]

Brain-computer interfacing is also a path to transhuman intelligence. Justin, which of ImmInst's major projects exclusively focus on transhuman intelligence?

The book.

[Kalepha]

Exclusively? Think so?

[justinb]

Exclusively? Think so?

What? Please restate your question.

[Kalepha]

You think the book exclusively focuses on transhuman intelligence. I don't think that's true.

[justinb]

You think the book exclusively focuses on transhuman intelligence. I don't think that's true.

I never said that, or intended to come across that way. It does mention it a few times though.

[Kalepha]

Don't lose sight of your conclusion that ImmInst is too involved in pseudoscience. I suggested that the major projects are what count. You didn't deny this, so I asked you which of ImmInst's major projects are established exclusively on pseudoscience.

If you have a problem, then you must be prepared to engage in debate. To be prepared to engage in debate, you must at least be able to not sidetrack from your conclusions and their premises.

[Kalepha]

Just so nothing is misconstrued, in the statement "You didn't deny this, so I asked you which of ImmInst's major projects are established exclusively on pseudoscience," I use the term "pseudoscience" in the way you use it, which is to refer to concepts over transhuman intelligence. I used it your way, since the question is not about what I believe, but whether ImmInst is doing what you think it's doing.

[JMorgan]

Ok, for starters BCI is bollocks. I have spoken with a brilliant neurologist about it and he said that it is pure pie-in-the-sky fantasy. I have also spoken with other MDs about it and they have said samiliar things.

I agree that things aren't moving as fast as I would like. But I think you'd be surprised, actually MOST people in this world would be surprised to learn that quite a lot has already been done regarding direct computer to brain interfacing. Already, there is a blind man who can see through a video camera that is wired directly into his optical nerve. His vision is not perfect, but they are working on miniaturizing this and streamlining the technique.

Also, there are some paraplegics who are able to move a cursor on the screen and type emails, write essays, etc using only their brain. Things are progressing slowly, but I think the rate at which we progress will begin to climb faster and faster until one day we will have achieved something without most people even seeing it coming.

The same is true with nanotechnology. To some extent, you are right - we will have to wait a while for it to truly do wonders. But nanotechnology is around TODAY. One use in particular is a bullet-proof vest that can stop bullets far better than your ordinary vest, and it uses nanotechnology to achieve its stopping power. This is not 10 years away. These are being developed right now.

[justinb]

Don't lose sight of your conclusion that ImmInst is too involved in pseudoscience. I suggested that the major projects are what count. You didn't deny this, so I asked you which of ImmInst's major projects are established exclusively on pseudoscience.

If you have a problem, then you must be prepared to engage in debate. To be prepared to engage in debate, you must at least be able to not sidetrack from your conclusions and their premises.

It is not that I am unprepared to engage in debate, it is that I simply don't want to because I know it wont mean anything.

[Kalepha]

It is not that I am unprepared to engage in debate, it is that I simply don't want to because I know it wont mean anything.

Then why initiate one?

In any case, this debate has meant something, that your original assertion is misguided.

And no, we're not enemies, unless you want to be.

[justinb]

It is not that I am unprepared to engage in debate, it is that I simply don't want to because I know it wont mean anything.

Then why initiate one?

In any case, this debate has meant something, that your original assertion is misguided.

And no, we're not enemies, unless you want to be.

My original assertion, which still stands, is that uploading is purely speculative, at best. ImmInst puts a lot of import on it, so much so that uploading is treated as a fact to be realized other then what it is, pure speculation.

I never said we were enemies, I said I didn't want to risk becoming ones through a debate.

[Kalepha]

My original assertion, which still stands, is that uploading is purely speculative, at best. ImmInst puts a lot of import on it, so much so that uploading is treated as a fact to be realized other then what it is, pure speculation.

If your original assertion is that uploading is purely speculative, then you wouldn’t be accusing ImmInst of treating the possibility of uploading as if it were fact. Yet you accuse ImmInst of being too involved in pure speculation. So your original assertion, after all, is actually that ImmInst establishes its major projects, whose purposes are to conquer the blight of involuntary death, on the assumption that uploading is the primary solution. But this is false, given the earlier realization that none of ImmInst’s major projects exclusively focus on transhuman intelligence as a primary interim goal.

[Kalepha]

Please understand, the problem here is with your reasoning, not with ImmInst.

[DJS]

You don't get what I am saying, we don't even know if it is possible to do anything that is speculative.

SENS is speculative also. In fact, any advance in future technologies is speculative. The task then becomes trying to find out just how speculative a given path (to immortality) really is.

[DJS]

I mean, for instance Justin, you dismiss BCI out of hand. Now, I actually have a position similar to yours on this issue. I am skeptical about BCI being implementable in the near term (30+ years). But if we got Peter Passaro in here he could present you with extremely convincing arguments that BCI will be a feasible solution in the next 30 years -- and this guy is no slouch, trust me. He's a neuro-scientist working at Georgia Tech. He is a very strong mind.

Part of the problem with anticipating the future is that no one has the full picture. The best chance that any of us have to really understand how the future will progress is to keep an open mind. That is what, at its heart, socratic wisdom is after all -- realizing that one's knowledge is always imperfect -- that one can always be wrong in their assessment.

[susmariosep]

That's good news!

I agree that things aren't moving as fast as I would like.  But I think you'd be surprised, actually MOST people in this world would be surprised to learn that quite a lot has already been done regarding direct computer to brain interfacing.  Already, there is a blind man who can see through a video camera that is wired directly into his optical nerve.  His vision is not perfect, but they are working on miniaturizing this and streamlining the technique.

Also, there are some paraplegics who are able to move a cursor on the screen and type emails, write essays, etc using only their brain.  Things are progressing slowly, but I think the rate at which we progress will begin to climb faster and faster until one day we will have achieved something without most people even seeing it coming.

The same is true with nanotechnology.  To some extent, you are right - we will have to wait a while for it to truly do wonders.  But nanotechnology is around TODAY.  One use in particular is a bullet-proof vest that can stop bullets far better than your ordinary vest, and it uses nanotechnology to achieve its stopping power.  This is not 10 years away.  These are being developed right now.

Good man, Malchiah, please refer me to websites where such discoveries and inventions are being presented and explained.

I am always on the lookout for such contraptions which I think might be good investments to increase my financial standing -- for honestly as I tell friends though in humor, Money is never too much.

And for people here who might think that I am money-crazy, please bear with me, I am not crazy about money, but the fact is if anything good or worthwhle for mankind today can be achieved, it has to be done first and foremost with raising funds.


Susma

[susmariosep]

The most hard statement from
Nate Barna, that I have read from him.


And no, we're not enemies, unless you want to be (addressed to Justinb). -- Nate Barna

From Lazarus Long, the most hard (no, not harshest) statements I got from him addressed to me were in his thread on that software for Truth-mapping and in the follow-up thread from me on Sense and Nonsense in Words, where I wanted to continue discussing with him about "You never really know someone until you fight him", which for him is a grand line from the Matrix Reloaded, but for me it is so unsavory or insipid (but I used insipid elsewhere only yesterday); well, okay, nonsense.

This is the most hard statement of Lazarus toward me: "Is that a challenge directed to me" (something like that).


No, I have not come across any expletives from these two gentlemen, alluding to the lower groin orifices, their functions and their effluvients -- unlike someone I know from dismaying experiences here.


Next post please.


Susma

It is not that I am unprepared to engage in debate, it is that I simply don't want to because I know it wont mean anything.

Then why initiate one?

In any case, this debate has meant something, that your original assertion is misguided.

And no, we're not enemies, unless you want to be.

[susmariosep]

Justinb seeks empathetic counselling.


Addressing Justinb:

Are you Justinb the one? where on what occasion I can't now recall I suggested to you to learn Latin, which can be very useful to you for your interest in science or your career in science, and where to obtain a textbook on Latin for practically nothing.

And are you the Justinb? who asked about where to learn or relearn basic geometry, and I gave you some suggestions and in humor some ideas about going back to school to look up the school library, or the old textbooks of your parents.

I think you call me an a** on that occasion; but I didn't feel except a very inconsequential seismic tremor in my psyche, taking it as a humorous wit from you. Can't say the same thing about our favorite bully here in this forum -- the man really needs not just protracted counselling but a total retooling.


Justinb, are you going to college or to graduate school very soon?

Here is one advice from one Amsus, Ph.D., from UHK* (streets campus):

"The unknown life is not worth living", but start with your own life.

Know thyself and be guided accordingly to achieve gentleman status and to be focused in your intellectual quests. Read that thread on focus by RodentMan here. Lucky you don't have that problem of difficult concentration.

-----------

Didn't I say that my fun here is to study human behavior, including and starting first with myself.


Susma

*UHK = University of Hard Knocks (streets campus).

[justinb]

Please understand, the problem here is with your reasoning, not with ImmInst.

ImmInst is not a static organization, meaning the people here make up ImmInst and it's vision. Unfortunately a lot of people here, including many if not all of its directors, treat uploading as it were only a matter of time.

Susma,

Yes, I was the one asking about Latin, but I don't recall asking about geometry.

I am going to start undergraduate school in a month. So I am a long ways off from earning a serious degree.

I mean, for instance Justin, you dismiss BCI out of hand.

I don't dismiss BCI out of hand, I dismiss the future uses of BCI that people believe will become a reality.

Here is were people don't understand my argument. Uploading is not even a concept, it is a dream. Uploading means to transform yourself into a artificial medium; and unfortunately among many people here it means to copy yourself onto an artificial medium and then kill yourself (the original). I have no idea why such reasonably intelligent believe can't see the obvious stupidity in that. I am not saying that uploading is impossible, I am simply saying that no one has given a technical explanation of it, there isn't even a coherent theory as to how this will be done. Until then, there is no reason to believe that it is possible; and among many just a matter of time.

SENS is speculative also.

Yes it is. The difference between uploading and SENS is that there is a coherent thoery behind SENS and many technical explanations that only need to be refined tested. There is an infinitely higher probability of SENS working then uploading, simply because uploading is only a dream thus far.

[Kalepha]

Unfortunately a lot of people here, including many if not all of its directors, treat uploading as it were only a matter of time.

You should probably clarify what you mean by "treat" and what that has to do with you. It's already been established in this thread that no one with any self-desired influence in this forum is pursuing uploading directly as a solution to the aging problem.

[DJS]

There's no doubt that ImmInst has a heavy SENS slant (which I personally think is a good thing).

Let's see, my personal opinion on the positions of the various directors:

1. Bruce: strong support of SENS, but views the *true* long term solution as a complete transfer of substrate.

2. Caliban: doesn't talk about his perspective much, but he also a strong supporter of SENS. I'm willing to bet he is rather conservative on uploading.

3. Reason: Strong SENS support. You will often hear him say, "First things first, let's take care of aging."

4. Kevin: Strong SENS supporter. Works for the methuselah mouse prize. I'm not sure about his position on uploading.

5. Jaydfox: Strong SENS support. Has doubts that traditionally conceived uploading will work, though he maintains an open mind that some form of substrate transfer will work over "the next couple of hundred years."

6. Lazarus: Maintains an integrationist approach. Believes that all relevant technologies from both traditional bio and BCI will merge together in the coming decades. I have no doubt that he also is a strong SENS supporter.

[DJS]

Uploading means to transform yourself into a artificial medium; and unfortunately among many people here it means to copy yourself onto an artificial medium and then kill yourself (the original).

That's not what I'm saying at all. You'll always hear me discuss the concept of *gradual transfer scenarios*.

Also, I should make clear that even the gradual replacement scenario is not something I would do without the most concrete, *absolute* evidence supporting its efficacy.

[justinb]

That's not what I'm saying at all.  You'll always hear me discuss the concept of *gradual transfer scenarios*.

Also, I should make clear that even the gradual replacement scenario is not something I would do without the most concrete, *absolute* evidence supporting its efficacy.

I didn't say you supported this "approach," I said that many here do or at least have said they do.

Yes, many if not all here do support SENS. That is not the problem. The problem is blind adherance to a technology that isn't even conceptualized. The support of uploading further isolates an already isolated community; which is bad by all accounts.

You should probably clarify what you mean by "treat" and what that has to do with you. It's already been established in this thread that no one with any self-desired influence in this forum is pursuing uploading directly as a solution to the aging problem.

What I wrote above clarifies what I mean. The support of dream prospects only hurts ImmInst.

[DJS]

I said that many here do or at least have said they do.

In a theoretical sort of way. As Nate said, no one is actively working to build an "uploading device".

Yes, many if not all here do support SENS. That is not the problem. The problem is blind adherance to a technology that isn't even conceptualized. The support of uploading further isolates an already isolated community; which is bad by all accounts.

There is no adherence, there are only intellectual ponderings.

Do you support free speech justin? If so, then people here are going to talk about what they want to talk about. Right?

Does talk of uploading isolate us? I'm a strong proponent of "maintaining the proper image", but I really don't see it that way. ImmInst represents the cutting edge. We are the bridge between other transhumanist organizations like WTA, ExI and SingInst ( [:o] [lol] ) and the "somewhat" more mainstream anti-aging community.

We are a futurist site that talks about futurist technologies. Uploading may eventually be developed, thus we talk about it.

I'll be honest with you, I don't think SENS is the ultimate solution. There are still too many existential risk factors that could take my vulnerable biobag out of commission. Something additional will eventually be required (in the long term).

I don't see why, theoretically, a transfer of substrate isn't possible.

[justinb]

We are a futurist site that talks about futurist technologies. Uploading may eventually be developed, thus we talk about it.

I'll be honest with you, I don't think SENS is the ultimate solution. There are still too many existential risk factors that could take my vulnerable biobag out of commission. Something additional will eventually be required (in the long term).

I don't see why, theoretically, a transfer of substrate isn't possible.

You still are not understanding what my concerns are with 'uploading.' Maybe is it my lack of communicative skills or your blind-spots in your thoughts.

Uploading has not been show to be theoritically possible and there is no reason to believe that it is. More importantly, there is no coherency behind uploading, it is not even a developed concept, yet alone a hypothesis. Since we have no idea what consciousness is and have very little knowledge concerning the inner workings of the brain, there is no reason for us to even entertain the idea since it really is only a dream. I would rather think about something real. Many people here hold the belief that uploading will become possible, whatever that means, in the future just because it will be "worked out." What if it is intrinisically impossible?

I never said SENS was the ultimate solution, as you qouted Reason, "First things first, let's take care of aging."

[Kalepha]

[inappropriate]

Edited by Nate Barna, 31 July 2005 - 12:28 AM.

[justinb]

You don’t even know enough logic to maintain coherence in your arguments

Pffft. Perhaps you are misreading what I said.

Two things.

Firstly, as soon as uploading becomes a theoritical fact, I would love to see why. But until then I don't want to be bothered with it.

Second, speaking with someone who knows more about all of those overlapping domains then anyone here or anyone who supports uploading, I have learned to become quite skeptical. Every qualified person I talk to says that uploading is pure dreamy nonsense, and they are not "out of the loop." Ray Kurzweil is not a neuroscientist, so I don't take his claims regarding uploading and even A.I. too seriously. You are quite correct, I am ignorant. And I will readibly admit that to myself and anyone else. The only problem is, on one who supports uploading admits their own vast ignorance concerning neuroscience. Which I find very annoying.

[Kalepha]

Second, speaking with someone who knows more about all of those overlapping domains then anyone here or anyone who supports uploading, I have learned to become quite skeptical. Every qualified person I talk to says that uploading is pure dreamy nonsense, and they are not "out of the loop."

True. But I'm not sure why you'd want to be a sheep either.

You are quite correct, I am ignorant. And I will readibly admit that to myself and anyone else. The only problem is, on one who supports uploading admits their own vast ignorance concerning neuroscience. Which I find very annoying.

I'm curious about why you'd think I "support" uploading.

[justinb]

True. But I'm not sure why you'd want to be a sheep either.

If I believed in it without reason I would be a sheep.

I'm curious about why you'd think I "support" uploading.

For you to become a polymorphic intelligence, uploading would have to be a reality. Of course, uploading isn't even a scientific concept yet, so....

As your profile says.

• Becoming a physically immortal, endlessly self-enhancing, polymorphic, ultraintelligent, optimizing agency.

[Kalepha]

Perhaps our concepts of uploading are different.

In any case, you're getting distracted. Me too.