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Why isn't there more talk on OXYTOCIN?

oxytocin

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#31 sub7

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 03:37 PM

The study posted where the ingestion of L. Reuteri resulted in an increase in serum oxytocin levels is very intriguing.

The ingestion of this digestive system microbe resulted in a more than two-fold increase in oxytocin plasma concentrations:

"(Control (n = 13): 380.5±46.82 pg/ml vs L. reuteri (n = 11): 875.3±141.7, p = 0.0004.)"

 

I have looked for commercial L. Reuteri products and they do exist. However, they are not nearly as popular as one would expect. Nor did I find many raving reviews on the net (which may or may not mean something). Anyone heard anything about this microbe?

If not, we will look into doubling our plasma levels by way of exogenous oxytocin injections. How much would be required to accomplish that?



#32 xEva

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 09:41 PM

He quotes medical dictionary, same as I do, just a different site. And your understanding is not quite right. Rather, 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 400-500 IU of "oxytocic activity". Capisce?

 
Dumb it down some more for me please. Assume:
I go and buy Oxytocin for human use and on the label it says "10 iu per ml"
Doctor tells me to inject 0.1 mg
How many mls of the solution I have purchased will I inject?
 
(in making this calculation let us for now take the 450 IU as the mean of "1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 400-500 IU of "oxytocic activity".)


Re 400 or 450 or 500 IU: To know exactly how much synthetic oxytocin is in the vial, one has to contact the manufacturer of the preparation in question.

For the dose of 0.1 mg of oxytocin use 40 to 50 IU, which comes down to 4-5 1 mL vials, which is 4-5 mL of 10 IU/mL solution. (which is A LOT to inject at once -- that's why these vials are made for use in an IV drip -- but we don't wanna go that way either, which leaves us with the original BB advice not to use pharma, but buy powder and mix your own.)

Edited by xEva, 26 January 2016 - 09:42 PM.


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#33 sub7

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 09:52 AM

Thanks a lot for the clarification



#34 pone11

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 06:24 PM

I have actually spoken to the guys injecting it and no they were not using veterinary products. As mentioned in the thread I have posted the link to, there is a dosing issue that I cannot make sense of (you will need to read the whole thread over there to see what I mean). The dose recommended for muscle rejuvenation is simply enormous, as in just uttery ridiculous. I had looked at dosages of human and vet products and if I am not mistaken, human grade is like 5 iu per ml, while animal products are 10 iu per ml. And believe it or not, people were talking about injecting 250 iu per shot. That is simply impossible to do with those concentrations (might be slightly mistaken about the precise numbers, so please correct me if you do read the linked thread). Therefore, those guys had obtained oxytocin in powder form and mixed it with bacteriostatic water themselves to obtain very high concentrations. It was not an expensive powder and what they did wasn't very hard to replicate. This however, raises the question of safety.

 

Oxytocin is not as safe a product as people think -if taken at such crazy doses. Patrick Arnold was saying that it could even kill you if you inject it into a vein. At those insane doses, we are talking about serum levels that are possibly never tested before in humans.

 

Common sense tells you that levels massively above normal levels for a young person should not be required to achieve a therapeutic effect.  I would agree safety is a big concern at such levels.   Are you saying the Conboy mouse studies were using doses that are human-equivalent to 250 IU per injection, given daily?


Edited by pone11, 29 January 2016 - 07:16 PM.


#35 pone11

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 06:36 PM

yeah I have reservations about it too, that's why I left that -? mark.

..though USP units are supposed to be milligrams (-?) and it comes in vials supposedly ready for injection with "Strength: 10 USP Units/mL" which I think is 10 mg per milliliter or cc. This does not look like a lot to me. ..though it's a hormone of course and in any case I would not do it daily. If I would do it, I would do it in short cycles, probably after a week-long fast with lotsa phys.activity.

 

This is contradicted by the rat studies where they join together young and old rats (parabiosis).  The old rats become younger and the young rats get older.  In subsequent studies where they attempt to find out what peptides or hormones are causing this effect, they have tried doing weekly and daily injections, and weekly never seems to work.  This suggests that the tissues need some magic cocktail of peptides or hormones on an ongoing basis in order to reverse effects of aging.

 

The substances that I have read about being tested this way are GDF-11, oxytocin, and blood plasma.   Typical of these studies would be this plasma study on mice where they injected plasma once per week.   The old mice *failed* to get younger:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4215333/

 

For those following the GDF-11 drama, the key anti-aging evidence was presented by Amy Wagers at Harvard in 2013.   Now recently there is a study that makes the opposite claim, that GDF-11 slows muscle repair:

http://www.nature.co...uestion-1.17583

 

Science is utterly frustrating, and everything is inconclusive, and everything proceeds at a snail's pace.


Edited by pone11, 29 January 2016 - 07:19 PM.


#36 pone11

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 06:44 PM

I looked into this units issue and here is the scoop.

Nowadays synthetic oxytocin is used and clearly it should be expressed in mg. Turns out, "USP units"  is an atavism coming from the past when it was obtained from bovine pituitaries. According to this article, the standard was based on "acetone-extracted dry powder prepared from fresh, dissected bovine posterior pituitaries", and it was decided that a unit of "oxytocic substance" was contained in 0.5 mg of such powder. So, that's where 0.5 mg comes from.

Now the question is, how much of the peptide is actually contained in this 0.5 mg of dry bovine pituitary extract. 

In the US Pharmacopeia it says: "Oxytocin ... is prepared by synthesis or obtained from ... Its oxytocic activity is not less than 400 UPS Oxytocin Units per mg."  

 

This means that 1 UPS Oxytocin Unit = 0.0025 mg of synthetic oxytocin (= 2.5 micrograms). So, if there are 400-500 USP units per 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin, then 1 USP unit on a label  equals 2.0 - 2.5 micrograms of oxytocin.

 

 I also saw that this hormone is essentially the same in many mammals, with similar dosages per weight throughout. Also the standard of "oxytocic activity" nowadays is determined by the degree of contractions of isolated rat uteri -- and rats are not far removed from mice.  All this makes me question the dosage from the Conboy paper. Maybe they meant to write micrograms per kilo of a mouse when they wrote micrograms per gram -?

 

 

These are really important dosing observations.   Have you tried to contact Conboy by email and get clarification?   She is easily reachable and she responds.   If you want help finding her email drop me a line here.

 

Could you publish and update after getting clarification from her?

 

I'm more confused than ever on dosing after reading this thread.



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#37 pone11

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 07:12 PM

The study posted where the ingestion of L. Reuteri resulted in an increase in serum oxytocin levels is very intriguing.

The ingestion of this digestive system microbe resulted in a more than two-fold increase in oxytocin plasma concentrations:

"(Control (n = 13): 380.5±46.82 pg/ml vs L. reuteri (n = 11): 875.3±141.7, p = 0.0004.)"

 

I have looked for commercial L. Reuteri products and they do exist. However, they are not nearly as popular as one would expect. Nor did I find many raving reviews on the net (which may or may not mean something). Anyone heard anything about this microbe?

If not, we will look into doubling our plasma levels by way of exogenous oxytocin injections. How much would be required to accomplish that?

 

Can you point us to the products you found?

 

What about the idea of adding these into a homemade yogurt product, to get much higher doses?    Remember that most probiotic capsules are of limited value since most of the bacteria won't survive digestion to get into the gut.


Edited by pone11, 29 January 2016 - 07:21 PM.


#38 xEva

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 11:58 PM

@pone11:

re: L. reuteri, if you read the reuteri thread here, it is suggested that its purported benefits are due to calming down of inflammation -- which sorta sounds right.

Now the question is whether higher oxytocin levels correlate with lower inflammation -- I mean, who knows what's the cause here, what's the effect and what is just a correlation. What if by simply lowering inflammation in someone who has it high would result in higher endogenous oxytocin levels -? If so, where would it leave L. reuteri? Maybe some other anti-inflammatory would work even better for oxytocin? ANyone knows?



re: supposed ineffectiveness of weekly treatments for mice -- these critters have such a high metabolic rate that a day for them lasts about as long as a week for us. This is true in regard to many different metabolic parameters, though of course not all. So I would not yet discount once-weekly treatment for humans only because they did not work in mice.

But more importantly, I am a strong believer in cyclic, short-duration therapies that have a long lasting effect. An effective therapy should result in cellular/tissue repairs -- which should be like rewinding the biological clock. The idea is similar to daily cycle of sleep or, say, once a year vacation. After good night sleep complexion is radiant, lotsa energy, wrinkles fade away; the clock is rewound -- well certainly back to the previous morning level. A successful rejuvenation therapy should bring one biologically 5-10 years back. And so re oxytocin, I would try a few once weekly treatments -- or maybe once daily for a week -- no more. If it works this should be enough and have a visible, lasting effect within a few short weeks. Only an experiment will tell.

so let us experiment and share :)

#39 Rocket

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:59 PM

 

 

 

 

For those following the GDF-11 drama, the key anti-aging evidence was presented by Amy Wagers at Harvard in 2013.   Now recently there is a study that makes the opposite claim, that GDF-11 slows muscle repair:

http://www.nature.co...uestion-1.17583

 

Science is utterly frustrating, and everything is inconclusive, and everything proceeds at a snail's pace.

 

 

That research you reference that found GDF-11 inhibited muscle repair has been totally refuted.

 

On your last comment, I agree. 



#40 Rocket

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 06:10 PM

 

 

All this makes me question the dosage from the Conboy paper. Maybe they meant to write micrograms per kilo of a mouse when they wrote micrograms per gram -?

 
Indeed that is what comes to mind
Which leaves us pretty much nowhere...
However the bodybuilders who had injected this indeed used -if I recall correctly- somewhere around 0.2 miligrams or thereabouts; so basically very very huge amounts...

 

 
 
I just read the BB thread, and only the OP claimed to have used 0.2 mg per day -- but he sorta was unclear on details of that largest dose, 'cause, he said, he was stressed out at the time. The rest of the dosages posted by him and other participants ranged from 20 to 40-50 micrograms, which is from 10 to 20-25 IU (assuming 400 IU in a mg of oxytocin -- or 8 to 16-20 IU assuming 500 IU per mg of oxytocin). This is consistent with the 5-10 UI dosages per vial sold for human use.  (Multiple-use 100 mL vials with 20 IU per mL are sold for veterinary use). 
 

 

Also, just to make sure we don't loose sight of the forest whilst examining the individual trees:
What you have thus far found does not contradict Patrick Arnold's finding that 500 IU of Oxytocin = 1 miligram, right?
I want to make sure I am reading it correctly...


He quotes medical dictionary, same as I do, just a different site. And your understanding is not quite right. Rather, 1 mg of synthetic oxytocin corresponds to 400-500 IU of "oxytocic activity". Capisce?

 

 

Can you please post the link to the bodybuilding forum with the oxytocin logs?

 

Anabolic steroids (including testosterone) increase oxytocin levels.  There is no need for a bodybuilder who uses steroids to resort to oxytocin when his (or her) steroids will increase the levels of oxytocin as a side benefit in addition to their effects on protein synthesis and strength. 
 



#41 xEva

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 10:23 AM

Can you please post the link to the bodybuilding forum with the oxytocin logs?


http://www.prohormon...-blog-oxytocin/

#42 normalizing

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 08:07 PM

im havng hard time finding a reputable reliable source of oxytocin. anyone with experience can guide me to a nice source please?



#43 RobbieG

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:27 PM

I am not trying to be a downer but I just saw this article about oxytocin.  But this is relevant and a warning to all of us to be skeptical.  

 

http://blogs.discove...nXzgy9Ni.mailto

 

 


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#44 DomoTheHungry

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 08:16 AM

are there natural substances like L Reuteri that increases levels of oxytocin? something we can rotate and cycle perhaps to not shut down natural production

 

#45 Rocket

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 07:18 PM

I read that Oxytocin has a half life measured in mere minutes. What is the point in using a peptide that is gone from your system in (let's say) 10 minutes? 


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#46 Why not!

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:36 AM

why don't you study a little biochemistry. then you might understand and not make ignorant comments which mislead others.

I read that Oxytocin has a half life measured in mere minutes. What is the point in using a peptide that is gone from your system in (let's say) 10 minutes? 

 


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