1034 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

God is everywhere but sense God is spirit you will not comprehend Him using methods designed to comprehend the physical world.  Take love for example.  You can have a physical man and woman who love each other.  You can measure both the man and woman but you cannot measure the love.  So it is with the physical and  spiritual.

[sthira]

We certainly may measure the love between two people. If not, then how did you come to marry your wife and not your neighbor's?

We know where love exists and where love does not exist. But where is God? If God is everywhere and God is spirit and God/Spirit is/are incomprehensible here in the physical world, then where is your evidence that God exists? Your evidence (incomprehensible) cannot by definition exist.

[sthira]

No, I'm wrong. Of course there are things we cannot comprehend that exist. Maybe God is one of those things. We don't really know, however, do we? Don't you wonder what kind of God would make Himself incomprehensible to us? Why would God do such a thing? And if God has made Himself incomprehensible to us, maybe it's the case that God doesn't want us to know Him? How would we know otherwise?

Where is God? We ask. God won't even tell us He's incomprehensible. Instead, God appears to be relying upon middlemen like Shadowhawk to explain the mystery to us? Is that how it is?

[platypus]

You can also have a physical man and man who love each other. And woman love woman. God was supposedly Love, right?

[The Brain]

God is everywhere but sense God is spirit you will not comprehend Him using methods designed to comprehend the physical world. Take love for example. You can have a physical man and woman who love each other. You can measure both the man and woman but you cannot measure the love. So it is with the physical and spiritual.

You're making this up right, where in the bible say that we won't comprehend him in a physical worldly way?
And please, love is an emotion between two physical beings, there has to be a physical other

[shadowhawk]

We certainly may measure the love between two people. If not, then how did you come to marry your wife and not your neighbor's?

We know where love exists and where love does not exist. But where is God? If God is everywhere and God is spirit and God/Spirit is/are incomprehensible here in the physical world, then where is your evidence that God exists? Your evidence (incomprehensible) cannot by definition exist.

I didn't measure it.  How would you do such a thing?  It is not physical yet it exists and is comprehensible.  There are other things such as this..

[shadowhawk]

No, I'm wrong. Of course there are things we cannot comprehend that exist. Maybe God is one of those things. We don't really know, however, do we? Don't you wonder what kind of God would make Himself incomprehensible to us? Why would God do such a thing? And if God has made Himself incomprehensible to us, maybe it's the case that God doesn't want us to know Him? How would we know otherwise?

Where is God? We ask. God won't even tell us He's incomprehensible. Instead, God appears to be relying upon middlemen like Shadowhawk to explain the mystery to us? Is that how it is?

You are wrong.  Without God coming into this physical world there are many reasons to believe there is a God but this is called Genrial Revelation.  It takes special Revelation to show us what God is like.

[shadowhawk]

You can also have a physical man and man who love each other. And woman love woman. God was supposedly Love, right?

We can experience non physical things which are real.  Love is real and so is God.  Abstract objects are also real.  Would you like more examples.  In fact what we call physical is a fascinating subject which I won't go into here.

[shadowhawk]

 

God is everywhere but sense God is spirit you will not comprehend Him using methods designed to comprehend the physical world. Take love for example. You can have a physical man and woman who love each other. You can measure both the man and woman but you cannot measure the love. So it is with the physical and spiritual.

You're making this up right, where in the bible say that we won't comprehend him in a physical worldly way?
And please, love is an emotion between two physical beings, there has to be a physical other

 

Love is not physical nor is consciousness.  Show me a physical measurement of love.  I did not say the spiritual and physical realities are not related.  In fact I am saying they are.

[The Brain]

A physical measurement of love could be a parent giving a kidney to a child
(You could argue this if you want by pointing out that people donate organs to strangers )

Offering to die in place of a spouse or loved one

Dying from heartbreak which is now recognised

[sthira]

^^Furthermore, a physical measurement of love could be that you love your wife more than you love another woman. We can certainly measure such feelings. Love -- like all human emotions -- is comprised of complex electrochemical occurrences within your brain. No brain chemistry, no love. No brain chem, no happiness, no sadness, no peace, no suffering, no dignity, no language, no science, no art. Until we keep progressing AI, that is, and our tools have the capacities to love, etc. And that day is fast upon us.

Meanwhile, where is God? Unfortunately, Shadowhawk, your words and thoughts regarding God make no sense. Care to clarify?

[sthira]

^^Furthermore, a physical measurement of love could be that you love your wife more than you love another woman. We can certainly measure such feelings. Love -- like all human emotions -- is comprised of complex electrochemical occurrences within your brain. No brain chemistry, no love. No brain chem, no happiness, no sadness, no peace, no suffering, no dignity, no language, no science, no art. Until we keep progressing AI, that is, and our tools have the capacities to love, etc. And that day is fast upon us.

Meanwhile, where is God? Unfortunately, Shadowhawk, your words and thoughts regarding God make no sense. Care to clarify?

To observe the brain in action ("love", eg) scientists and physicians use imaging techniques. Love may be measured primarily by using two types of tools. One is functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), which reflects changes of oxygen levels and variations of blood flow in, eg, an excited brain in love. The measurement of "love" is based on a phenomenon termed "BOLD" (Blood Oxygen Level Dependent), and is related to the magnetic properties of hemoglobin, which vary according to its state of oxygenation.

Another technique to measure love in the brain is called intrinsic optical signals (IOS) imaging, which detects modifications of light refraction on cerebral cells in love-action. This way records luminous intensity in the activated brain-in-love-zones. The method is used as an alternative to functional MRI, in particular when a magnetic field may disrupt examination. Scientists think that this modification of light behavior is also due to hemodynamic changes. But the field of understanding how the brain functions, and how to measure activities like love is rapidly changing...

Meanwhile, where is God?

[shadowhawk]

A physical measurement of love could be a parent giving a kidney to a child
(You could argue this if you want by pointing out that people donate organs to strangers )

Offering to die in place of a spouse or loved one

Dying from heartbreak which is now recognised

 

How is that a physical measurement?
 

[shadowhawk]

^^Furthermore, a physical measurement of love could be that you love your wife more than you love another woman. We can certainly measure such feelings. Love -- like all human emotions -- is comprised of complex electrochemical occurrences within your brain. No brain chemistry, no love. No brain chem, no happiness, no sadness, no peace, no suffering, no dignity, no language, no science, no art. Until we keep progressing AI, that is, and our tools have the capacities to love, etc. And that day is fast upon us.

Meanwhile, where is God? Unfortunately, Shadowhawk, your words and thoughts regarding God make no sense. Care to clarify?

 

It is not physical and you can't measure it.
 

[shadowhawk]

 

^^Furthermore, a physical measurement of love could be that you love your wife more than you love another woman. We can certainly measure such feelings. Love -- like all human emotions -- is comprised of complex electrochemical occurrences within your brain. No brain chemistry, no love. No brain chem, no happiness, no sadness, no peace, no suffering, no dignity, no language, no science, no art. Until we keep progressing AI, that is, and our tools have the capacities to love, etc. And that day is fast upon us.

Meanwhile, where is God? Unfortunately, Shadowhawk, your words and thoughts regarding God make no sense. Care to clarify?

To observe the brain in action ("love", eg) scientists and physicians use imaging techniques. Love may be measured primarily by using two types of tools. One is functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), which reflects changes of oxygen levels and variations of blood flow in, eg, an excited brain in love. The measurement of "love" is based on a phenomenon termed "BOLD" (Blood Oxygen Level Dependent), and is related to the magnetic properties of hemoglobin, which vary according to its state of oxygenation.

Another technique to measure love in the brain is called intrinsic optical signals (IOS) imaging, which detects modifications of light refraction on cerebral cells in love-action. This way records luminous intensity in the activated brain-in-love-zones. The method is used as an alternative to functional MRI, in particular when a magnetic field may disrupt examination. Scientists think that this modification of light behavior is also due to hemodynamic changes. But the field of understanding how the brain functions, and how to measure activities like love is rapidly changing...

Meanwhile, where is God?

 

 

Again you are not measuring love.  That the body can have a physical reaction to love is obvious.  So can the body have a physical reaction to God but the reaction is not the same as what caused it.
 

[The Brain]

Fine, word play from you again is typical, it's where losers have to gain ground.

Heartbreak resulting in death is a physical outcome of love lost, it had a physical outcome

[old_school]

 Meanwhile, where is God?

 

God is everywhere at all times through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit. It is through this Spirit that the Father and His Son knows all things that go on here on earth. It is through this Spirit that they hear our thoughts and prayers. I have revealed a photograph of this Spirit in my opening post.
 

[shadowhawk]

Fine, word play from you again is typical, it's where losers have to gain ground.

Heartbreak resulting in death is a physical outcome of love lost, it had a physical outcome

You have entirely missed the point.  Love is not physical and unmeasurable..

[shifter]

Everyone assumes that God must have the same conciousness, logic and humour as we do. We assume it must be omnipotent. Why must it? And those that disagree with an omnipotent but human like minded being as The God rule out any other possibilities.

Why can't whatever started the universe exist on a totally different level and not have any role furthermore what happens inside the universe(s). The problem with doctrines or atheism is that you only have 1 door to look through and you won't look at information and dismiss outright anything else. Open your minds to all possible doors.

The Truth! Is out there......


I found this image. We know what's going on. But thousands of years ago we would not have understand and would put it down to divinity or supernatural or whatever and wrote a chapter on it

[shadowhawk]

You have produced a picture and you think you know what is going on but in truth much of it is a mystery and you are not asking the big questions if you think you know.  Unless somehow we find out further information we can't know.

[shadowhawk]

ARE WE ONLY PHYSICAL??  More reasons we are not.

Atheist, Thomas Nagel wrote a fascinating book which I have mentioned before
“Mind and Cosmos.”
http://www.amazon.co...tag=wintknig-20

http://opinionator.b...nd-cosmos/?_r=1

There are a number of points he makes that are of interest to what we have been talking about, namely the spirit and the physical.  Using the human body he makes a case for dualism body/spirit.  Wallace summarizes His argument in the attached podcast.

The case:

*    The law of identity says that if A = B' if A and B have the exact same properties
    If A = the mind and B = the brain, then is A identical to B?
 
*   Wallace , in the podcast I attached, will present 6 arguments to show that A is not identical to B because they have different properties

Not everyone of the arguments below might make sense to you, but you will probably find one or two that strike you as correct. Some of the points are more illustrative than persuasive, like #2. However, I do find #3, #5 and #6 persuasive.

1) First-person access to mental properties

*    Thought experiment: Imagine your dream car, and picture it clearly in your mind
*    If we invited an artist to come and sketch out your dream car, then we could see your dream car's shape on paper
*    This concept of your dream car is not something that people can see by looking at your brain structure
*    Physical properties can be physically accessed, but the properties of your dream are privately accessed only.

2) Our experience of consciousness implies that we are not our bodies

*    Common sense notion of personhood is that we own our bodies, but we are not our bodies

3) Persistent self-identity through time

*    Thought experiment: replacing a new car with an old car one piece at a time
*    When you change even the smallest part of a physical object, it changes the identity of that object
*    Similarly, your body is undergoing changes constantly over time
*    Every cell in your body is different from the body you had 10 years ago
*    Even your brain cells undergo changes (see this from New Scientist - WK)
*    If you are the same person you were 10 years ago, then you are not your physical body

4) Mental properties cannot be measured like physical objects

*    Physical objects can be measured (e.g. - use physical measurements to measure weight, size, etc.)
*    Mental properties cannot be measured

5) Intentionality or About-ness

*    Mental entities can refer to realities that are physical, something outside of themselves
*    A tree is not about anything, it just is a physical object
*    But you can have thoughts about the tree out there in the garden that needs water

6) Free will and personal responsibility

*    If humans are purely physical, then all our actions are determined by sensory inputs and genetic programming
*    Biological determinism is not compatible with free will, and free will is required for personal responsibility
*    Our experience of moral choices and moral responsibility requires free will, and free will requires minds/souls

He spends the last 10 minutes of the podcast responding to naturalistic objections to the mind/soul hypothesis.  You can listen to it yourself at the end.

*Now in the podcast below, Wallace does say that scientific evidence is not the best kind of evidence to use when discussing this issue of body/soul and mind/brain. But I did blog before about two pieces of evidence that I think are relevant to this discussion: corroborated near-death experiences and mental effort.  The mockers went right on by this!

Dr. William Lane Craig brought up the issue of substance dualism, and the argument from intentionality ("aboutness"), in his debate with the naturalist philosopher Alex Rosenberg, so this argument about dualism is battle-ready.

We are both spirit and body, spirit and material.  We are both body and soul.  This is dualism.







 

[sthira]

Meanwhile, where is God?

God is everywhere at all times through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit. It is through this Spirit that the Father and His Son knows all things that go on here on earth. It is through this Spirit that they hear our thoughts and prayers. I have revealed a photograph of this Spirit in my opening post.

May you be happy and free.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

Meanwhile, where is God?

God is everywhere at all times through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit. It is through this Spirit that the Father and His Son knows all things that go on here on earth. It is through this Spirit that they hear our thoughts and prayers. I have revealed a photograph of this Spirit in my opening post.

May you be happy and free.

 

And also you.

[shadowhawk]

God is omnipresent in the world.  You can cut your hand off and you are still present because you are not your body.  at the same time there is no part of your body where you are not at.  So it is with God and the physical creation which comes into existence and is caused. 

[The Brain]

Meanwhile, where is God?

God is everywhere at all times through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit. It is through this Spirit that the Father and His Son knows all things that go on here on earth. It is through this Spirit that they hear our thoughts and prayers. I have revealed a photograph of this Spirit in my opening post.

May you be happy and free.

Most looneys are!

Blissfully unaware of the real world

God is omnipresent in the world. So it is with God and the physical creation which comes into existence and is caused.

Proof of this please ?

[old_school]

 

 

 

Meanwhile, where is God?

God is everywhere at all times through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit. It is through this Spirit that the Father and His Son knows all things that go on here on earth. It is through this Spirit that they hear our thoughts and prayers. I have revealed a photograph of this Spirit in my opening post.

May you be happy and free.

Most looneys are!

Blissfully unaware of the real world

God is omnipresent in the world. So it is with God and the physical creation which comes into existence and is caused.

Proof of this please ?

 

 

Look at all the photographs of the Holy Spirit on the internet. He is truly omnipresent.
 

[The Brain]

What's wrong with your mind and reasoning process?

[old_school]

What's wrong with your mind and reasoning process?

 

What are you going to do when your body dies and you find yourself in the spirit world without your friends and family because you chose not to believe in God and His Son Jesus?

[The Brain]

Well you need to prove that happens too...

[old_school]

Well you need to prove that happens too...

 

I suggest that you stop asking people to prove things and do some serious thinking about your immortal soul and how you are going to spend all of eternity in the afterlife.
 

Edited by old_school, 05 July 2015 - 05:33 AM.