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C60oo Open Scientific Discussion

c60 baati mitochondrial antioxidant

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#1 niner

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 02:07 AM


Three years on from the publication of Baati et al., it's time for a new science thread.  This is an "open" science thread, which means that you will not be subject to post deletion or posting bans if you post something that isn't "sciency" enough.  The only rules for this thread are standard forum rules.  In short, no marketing, be nice.

 

A few possible points for discussion:

 

What is the structure of the compound or compounds formed when c60 is mixed with olive oil?

 

What is the mechanism of action of this substance?

 

What are the biological effects of C60oo?

 

What conditions might benefit from C60oo?

 

For which conditions is C60 not indicated?

 

Are there dangers from using C60oo?

 

Updates on synthesis methods.


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#2 Metrodorus

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 07:55 PM

Thanks for setting this up, niner.



Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for C60 HEALTH to support Longecity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 bixbyte

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 10:39 PM

c60treatment.png

Optical microscopy of spleen sections: (a) oral and (b) i.p. treatment with olive oil only; (c.) oral and (d) i.p. treatment with C60-olive oil. The arrows indicate C60 crystals-containing macrophages (brown). (Credit: T. Baati et al./Biomaterials)

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 


Edited by bixbyte, 19 April 2015 - 10:42 PM.


#4 Invariant

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 12:35 AM

 

c60treatment.png

Optical microscopy of spleen sections: (a) oral and (b) i.p. treatment with olive oil only; (c.) oral and (d) i.p. treatment with C60-olive oil. The arrows indicate C60 crystals-containing macrophages (brown). (Credit: T. Baati et al./Biomaterials)

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 

 

 

For those who are wondering, this is a picture from the original Baati et al. study:

 

The prolongation of the lifespan of rats by repeated oral administration of [60]fullerene

Tarek Baati, Fanchon Bourasset, Najla Gharbi, Leila Njim, Manef Abderrabba, Abdelhamid Kerkeni, Henri Szwarc, Fathi Moussa,

Biomaterials, Volume 33, Issue 26, September 2012, Pages 6292–6294

 

http://www.sciencedi...142961212003237

 

 


Edited by Invariant, 20 April 2015 - 12:48 AM.


#5 niner

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 01:43 AM

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 

 

No, I don't think that the way the spleen filtered was changed; when the spleen filters normally, it encounters everything in the blood, and these mice had been given a very large dose of c60, 4 mg/kg body weight every day for a week.  Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen, and you can see some spleen macrophages that have engulfed the crystals.  I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 crystals.  This makes me worry about the wisdom of megadosing c60.  It's a lot worse in the animals that were dosed i.p., but it's also present in the ones that were dosed orally.



#6 bixbyte

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:31 AM

 

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 

 

No, I don't think that the way the spleen filtered was changed; when the spleen filters normally, it encounters everything in the blood, and these mice had been given a very large dose of c60, 4 mg/kg body weight every day for a week.  Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen, and you can see some spleen macrophages that have engulfed the crystals.  I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 crystals.  This makes me worry about the wisdom of megadosing c60.  It's a lot worse in the animals that were dosed i.p., but it's also present in the ones that were dosed orally.

 

 

 Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen,

 I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 

 

Therefore your spleen has been modified by the C60 molecules into a charcoal filter.

The Fullerenes take time to be passed and they appear to act as nano sized carbon filters.

I looked up research, C60 fullerenes are attached / attacked by the mammalian immune system. 

 

Attached File  Screenshot from 2015-04-20 00:24:04.png   102.36KB   28 downloads

 

 

 

Attached File  Screenshot from 2015-04-20 00:27:46.png   62.83KB   22 downloads

 

 

 

Attached File  Screenshot from 2015-04-20 01:02:59.png   67.44KB   22 downloads

 

https://books.google... of C60&f=false

 

 

Immediately when I wrote this post this someone responded that I am "ILL INFORMED"

Could you have taken time to read it first?  


Edited by bixbyte, 20 April 2015 - 05:04 AM.

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#7 Kalliste

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 05:03 AM

 

Inhibition of Inflammatory Arthritis Using Fullerene Nanomaterials

Inflammatory arthritis (e.g. rheumatoid arthritis; RA) is a complex disease driven by the interplay of multiple cellular lineages. Fullerene derivatives have previously been shown to have anti-inflammatory capabilities mediated, in part, by their ability to prevent inflammatory mediator release by mast cells (MC). Recognizing that MC can serve as a cellular link between autoantibodies, soluble mediators, and other effector populations in inflammatory arthritis, it was hypothesized that fullerene derivatives might be used to target this inflammatory disease. A panel of fullerene derivatives was tested for their ability to affect the function of human skin-derived MC as well as other lineages implicated in arthritis, synovial fibroblasts and osteoclasts. It is shown that certain fullerene derivatives blocked FcγR- and TNF-α-induced mediator release from MC; TNF-α-induced mediator release from RA synovial fibroblasts; and maturation of human osteoclasts. MC inhibition by fullerene derivatives was mediated through the reduction of mitochondrial membrane potential and FcγR-mediated increases in cellular reactive oxygen species and NF-κB activation. Based on these in vitro data, two fullerene derivatives (ALM and TGA) were selected for in vivo studies using K/BxN serum transfer arthritis in C57BL/6 mice and collagen-induced arthritis (CIA) in DBA/1 mice. Dye-conjugated fullerenes confirmed localization to affected joints in arthritic animals but not in healthy controls. In the K/BxN moldel, fullerenes attenuated arthritis, an effect accompanied by reduced histologic inflammation, cartilage/bone erosion, and serum levels of TNF-α. Fullerenes remained capable of attenuating K/BxN arthritis in mast cell-deficient mice Cre-Master mice, suggesting that lineages beyond the MC represent relevant targets in this system. These studies suggest that fullerene derivatives may hold promise both as an assessment tool and as anti-inflammatory therapy of arthritis.

dfghjghfk
 

 

 

Discussion

The molecular events leading to inflammatory arthritis are complex and involve a number of factors. Some studies have implicated MC in arthritis, and preventing mediator release from these cells has become a target for therapeutic intervention [11,53]. The initial impetus for these studies was the observation that certain fullerene derivatives can stabilize MC in vitro and in vivo. In the present studies, we confirmed that fullerenes could partially limit MC activation in vitro, an effect associated with specific derivitzation of the nanoparticles. Interestingly, while these compounds proved moderately effective in immune complex-driven K/BxN serum transfer arthritis, this effect was not fully attributable to MC inhibition, because the agents retained modest but discernable effect in MC-deficient Cre-Master mice. Consistent with this result, fullerenes manifested in vitro effects of a potentially anti-inflammatory nature on other lineages implicated in arthritis: fibroblasts and osteoclasts. However, in the more complex CIA model, the fullerene effect was no longer discernable, despite recent evidence (in the B6 background) for a role of MC in this model [51], which may be further explained by the model of arthritis induction and future experiments will be directed towards such studies, including using the CIA model in the MC-deficient mice.

The strategy for these studies was to first determine which fullerene derivatives inhibited human and mouse MC through arthritis–relevant stimulation. In addition, the ability of fullerene derivatives to inhibit synovial fibroblast cytokine production and osteoclast development were considered important prerequisites for predicting in vivo efficacy, as an amalgam of cell types govern the degree and severity of arthritis [19,54]. To this end, a panel of fullerene derivatives were tested for their ability to inhibit MC FcγR-mediated responses [55]. A clear structure-activity relationship between fullerene derivatives and inhibitory function was not defined. However, in general, the fullerene derivatives that were most efficient at inhibiting MC mediator release had side chain moieties that induced maximum water solubility, a zeta potential between 37 and -146 mV, and particle sizes between 50 to 200 nM. Of these, both TGA and ALM have been shown previously to inhibit IgE-mediated degranulation and cytokine production [25] and in response to other non-IgE-mediated secretagogues [46]. The TGA (tetra-glycolic acid) is a C70 series with four carboxyl groups, which confers water solubility. It is postulated that the mechanism by which TGA exerts its effect via an interaction between the carboxyl groups and the electrons on the fullerene cage. To examine this point, a similar fullerene derivative that presented a triethylene glycol spacer between the carboxyl groups and the cage was prepared. TEG-TGA (-25 mV zeta potential; 94 nM particle size) did not block MC mediator release nor did it interfere with cytokine release (not shown). This result is consistent with the hypothesis that proximity of the carboxyl groups to the cage is necessary for activity.

The mitochondrial electron transport is the machinery that orchestrates one of the most fundamental of chemical processes; the generation of cellular energy from oxygen resulting in the fuel that supports all eukaryotic life. However, it is a highly sensitive process and, unbalanced, leads to the generation of free radicals or ROS which have been linked as a mechanism underlying many chronic human diseases including MC activation and inflammatory arthritis [56,57]. ALM is a mitochondria- targeting fullerene derivative that has been previously shown to home to mitochondria and inhibit inflammation [27,28]. ALM was designed to accumulate in the internal mitochondrial membrane bilayers positioned to neutralize superoxide molecules, reactive lipid radicals, and radicals that have formed on transmembrane proteins at the site where they are generated. Subsequently, this is predicted to impact diseases whose pathologies stem from radical injury.

To this end both fullerene derivatives significantly block ROS production and mitochondrial membrane potential. While it has been shown previously that human MC degranulation in response to FcεRI and Fcγ-signaling involves ROS [58,59], it is not clear if blocking ROS directly blocks degranulation and cytokine production. Results here suggest that blocking ROS using ALM and TGA in response to IC (an FcγRIIA-dependent stimuli [35]) parallels inhibition of mediator release. This is in line with previous work suggesting that fullerenes interfere with the generation of mitochondrial-derived ROS [6063]. It is also demonstrated that mitochondrial membrane potential is a critical determinant in human MC FcγR-mediated degranulation. While further studies are needed these data suggest that fullerenes inhibit MC through a mechanism involving the mitochondrial membrane potential and suggest a role of the mitochondria in human MC non-IgE mediator release.

Nuclear factor-kappa B is involved in the pathophysiology of inflammatory and efforts to target its function through molecular targets in the pathway leading to its activation are underway [6466]. This transcription factor induces both TNF-α and IL-1β gene expression which can both in turn activate the NF-κB pathway inducing an autocrine loop which perpetuates inflammation. Interestingly, some of the drugs for RA were shown to block either the NF-κB activation cascade or its action [64,65,67]. For example, gold-containing therapeutics, TNF-α inhibitors, and methotrexate, all regularly used for treating arthritis, can effect NF-κB function [6870]. Several fullerene derivatives, including ALM and TGA, inhibited IC-induced NF-κB activation in human MC. Current studies are examining what signaling molecules in the ROS/TNF/NF-κB pathway [49] are affected by fullerene derivatives.

Arthritic joint tissues demonstrate a striking predilection for uptake of ALM. Indeed, this strong uptake may provide a partial basis for their efficacy in ameliorating K/BxN arthritis. It was also demonstrated that fullerene derivatives inhibited the onset of arthritis in K/BxN serum transfer arthritis in C57Bl/6 mice. There was a small but not significant improvement in the CIA model. The K/BxN serum transfer model induces a rapid and severe synovitis dependent on neutrophils, MC, and macrophages. A role for MC in this system had also been proposed by studies in mice that lack MC on the basis of mutations affecting the Kit-KitL (stem cell factor) axis (W/Wv,Sl/Sld, and Pretty2) [29,33]. These mice are resistant to disease induction following serum transfer, and susceptibility can be restored by MC engraftment. However, studies in Kit-independent models of MC deficiency have not found an effect on arthritis in this model, suggesting that the phenotype of Kit-mutant mice may reflect the role of stem cell factor on lineages beyond the MC [50]. In the Cre-Master mice employed here, MC deficiency results through a genotoxicity from high levels of Cre recombinase driven by the carboxypeptidase A3 locus, resulting in Trp53-dependent MC depletion. Whereas Cre-Master still exhibit some residual arthritis inhibition by fullerenes, our data suggested that MC are not the only relevant target of fullerenes in this system. Given the differences in MC phenotypes and expression between the rodent and human systems [71], further studies are needed to determine whether the effect of fullerenes on MC represents an interesting strategy for intervention in human arthritis.

As in other studies using purified and well characterized fullerene derivatives [25,26,7274], no liver or kidney toxicity was detected using repeated dosing of concentrations higher than that needed for in vivo efficacy. The in vivo imaging studies also demonstrated a lack of uptake in other organs, which portends well for a favorable toxicity profile in clinical development of ALM. More advanced toxicity studies would be needed to assess these two fullerene derivatives before moving forward with human application.

In conclusion, it was demonstrated that not all fullerene derivatives exhibit the same ability to inhibit inflammatory mediator release from MC and synovial fibroblasts. Two fullerene derivatives were able to significantly block the onset of serum-induced arthritis in vivo leading to a blunted inflammatory response; however CIA-induced mice were refractory to fullerene treatment. More studies are needed to identify those structure-activity relationships that are dependent on the moieties added to the fullerene carbon cage in order to define the precise mechanism by which these fullerene derivatives inhibit inflammatory disease.

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0126290


Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 20 April 2015 - 05:04 AM.


#8 bixbyte

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:29 PM

Fullerene C60 in Water have been shown to make certain Viruses ineffective and stop enveloped variety viruses

from mutating on to their hosts.

Virus envelopes are essential for their entry into host cells.

 

Attached File  fullerene.gif   191.1KB   18 downloads

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2676811/

 

 

(Structure and Properties of C60:)

 

Fullerene molecules are composed entirely of carbon, in form of a hollow sphere, ellipsoid or tube. Spherical fullerenes are also referred to as buckyballs. An important property of C60 molecule is its high symmetry. There are 120 symmetrical operations, like rotation around the axis and reflection in a plane, which map the molecule onto itself. This makes C60 the most symmetrical molecule (Taylor et al 1990). The C60 fullerene surface contains 20 hexagons and 12 pentagons. All the rings are fused; all the double bonds are conjugated. In spite of their extreme conjugation, they behave chemically and physically as electron-deficient alkenes rather than electron rich aromatic systems (Fowler and Ceulemans 1995).

 

 

(Small bits on C60 Antiviral Effect:)

 

On the other hand, water-insoluble fullerene (C60) derivatives have antiviral activity against enveloped viruses. After visible light illumination for 5 h of semliki forest virus (SFV, Togaviridae) or vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV, Rhabdoviridae) (Kaesermann and Kempf 1997) in the presence of C60, the infectivity of these viruses is lost. This effect is attributed to the generation of singlet oxygen and is equally effective in solutions that contained proteins. Several dyes are available that allow singlet oxygen generation (Rywkin et al 1995). Figure 3 shows the time-dependent loss of infectivity of SFV after illumination in the presence of C60 and oxygen. The light induced inactivation can be suppressed by removing oxygen from the solution by flushing argon through the suspension.

 

 

 

 

   



#9 niner

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 01:33 AM

 

 

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 

 

No, I don't think that the way the spleen filtered was changed; when the spleen filters normally, it encounters everything in the blood, and these mice had been given a very large dose of c60, 4 mg/kg body weight every day for a week.  Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen, and you can see some spleen macrophages that have engulfed the crystals.  I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 crystals.  This makes me worry about the wisdom of megadosing c60.  It's a lot worse in the animals that were dosed i.p., but it's also present in the ones that were dosed orally.

 

 Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen,

 I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 

 

Therefore your spleen has been modified by the C60 molecules into a charcoal filter.

The Fullerenes take time to be passed and they appear to act as nano sized carbon filters.

I looked up research, C60 fullerenes are attached / attacked by the mammalian immune system.

 

The spleen is still a spleen, and is not a charcoal filter, even if it has some macrophages containing small crystals of the fullerene fatty acid adduct.  We don't know what the macrophages do with those particles.  Of the three images you posted, the first is a condensed phase that isn't likely to filter anything larger than helium, if that.  The second is just a picture of three substituted fullerenes that are unrelated to c60oo.  The third is a complex that isn't going to act as a filter. 

 

It's important to recognize the difference between fullerene nanoparticles which may be tens to hundreds of nm in size, and single molecule species like c60oo.  The nanoparticles (often called "nano-C60" or nC60) are involved in a lot of toxicities, usually related to photo-induced ROS production.  They are what the immune system (macrophages, to be specific) will engulf.  That's the job of a macrophage-- to pick up random stuff that shouldn't normally be in the system.



#10 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:57 AM

 

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 

 

No, I don't think that the way the spleen filtered was changed; when the spleen filters normally, it encounters everything in the blood, and these mice had been given a very large dose of c60, 4 mg/kg body weight every day for a week.  Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen, and you can see some spleen macrophages that have engulfed the crystals.  I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 crystals.  This makes me worry about the wisdom of megadosing c60.  It's a lot worse in the animals that were dosed i.p., but it's also present in the ones that were dosed orally.

 

 

Niner - do these images showing C60 crystals in the spleen give you any cause for concern at the doses that you normally take?

 

 



#11 niner

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 01:17 PM

Niner - do these images showing C60 crystals in the spleen give you any cause for concern at the doses that you normally take?

 

Not really.  These mice got 4mg/kg daily for a week.  For a 70kg human, that would be 280mg/day, without interspecies scaling.  I'm not sure the "human equivalent dose" conversion applies here, because crystallization is a physical phenomenon rather than a metabolic one.  If you did do the rat to human conversion, it would be 280/6 = 47mg/day.  While I don't think the conversion applies here, if it does, then we have a handful of users who might have some crystal-laden macrophages in their spleens.  Finally, there's a dose-response effect that you can clearly see between the i.p. dose, which is effectively more exposure, and the oral dose.  The oral dose is a lot safer.  Because crystallization is a threshold effect, i.e., it doesn't happen until you hit a sufficiently high concentration, there shouldn't be any problem with lower doses taken for a longer time.  That's assuming, of course, that what we're seeing really is crystallization.   If it were something like a protein-fullerene aggregate, then what?  Could a lysosome disassemble that?  Maybe, maybe not.  It would be nice to see a few more spleen micrographs, like for rats on the same protocol, but after a few months of no fullerenes, or rats at a much lower chronic dose that would better correspond to what we use.  We're about two and a half years into the era of uncontrolled human experimentation, and I've yet to hear of any serious adverse events.  As far as my own dose, I'm taking 7.5 mg/week, so I feel like I'm on pretty safe ground.  I guess time will tell...


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#12 renfr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 04:40 PM

 

Look at the Spleen Cells of the Test Animals treated with C6O and tell me if I am on the right track?

The Fullerenes changed the way the Spleen filters? 

 

No, I don't think that the way the spleen filtered was changed; when the spleen filters normally, it encounters everything in the blood, and these mice had been given a very large dose of c60, 4 mg/kg body weight every day for a week.  Apparently some of the c60oo crystallized out in the spleen, and you can see some spleen macrophages that have engulfed the crystals.  I don't know what happens to the macrophages if they are not able to dispose of the c60 crystals.  This makes me worry about the wisdom of megadosing c60.  It's a lot worse in the animals that were dosed i.p., but it's also present in the ones that were dosed orally.

 

 

I would be worried if it builds up indefinitely without being flushed out.

 

Does anyone know what the violet colour means? It seems to be much more prevalent on the last figure.



#13 bixbyte

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:51 PM

Has anyone else tried using an eyedropper to fill a #00 Gelatin Capsule with C60 and quickly closing cap and swallowing the dose?

Swallowing a capsule eliminates the pepper taste.

Maybe a capsule drops down far enough into my digestive system to mimic the Mouse?

Also, I was wondering if anyone has tried to use any of those enteric acid resistant capsules that they sell on ebay?

There is a capsule I sometimes buy for my daily doses of Supplements that has been proved to open past your stomach.

The Caps are expensive, runs about 25 cents per cap in the US since the vendor is located in the UK.

Would delivering C60 further into the digestive system have any benefits?

The elimination of the Pepper taste in the throat.

 

100 enteric effect acid-resistant capsules DRcaps size 00 --- Ebay

 

eBay item number: 280798967151

 

 



#14 niner

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:15 PM

You can mix the c60oo with food.  That will reduce the peppery taste.   I wouldn't use an enteric coated capsule because c60oo needs to be digested like any other triglyceride in order to form the active species.  It would probably still be digested, but if it dissolved too far down the GI tract, it might just get excreted without absorption.  I can't see any benefit to it.    Baati's rats were dosed orally, so I'd follow that plan.  If you wanted to put it into an ordinary gelatin cap, that should work, but it would be a hassle.  I take mine with food, using it like ordinary olive oil.  Don't heat it or cook with it, though.



#15 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 11:49 PM

I take the full dose about every 6 months or so. It is disgusting, but adding about a cup of oil to a tuna salad, somewhat helps. I wouldn't use DR caps as I agree with niner regarding the digestion and also because the caps don't do well with oils. The nitrogen protected Licaps we use for some capsules could be great to use, but you need a specialized machine that runs about $40,000 to $60,000. All in all, its not practical, specially for folks that take the full dose.

 

What conditions might benefit from C60oo?

From my personal experience ...

<Deleted>

 

​Sorry niner, I just read Calibans thread and took out my anecdotal observations.


Edited by Anthony_Loera, 21 April 2015 - 11:52 PM.


#16 bixbyte

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 02:35 PM

I take the full dose about every 6 months or so. It is disgusting, but adding about a cup of oil to a tuna salad, somewhat helps. I wouldn't use DR caps as I agree with niner regarding the digestion and also because the caps don't do well with oils. The nitrogen protected Licaps we use for some capsules could be great to use, but you need a specialized machine that runs about $40,000 to $60,000. All in all, its not practical, specially for folks that take the full dose.

 

What conditions might benefit from C60oo?

From my personal experience ...

<Deleted>

 

​Sorry niner, I just read Calibans thread and took out my anecdotal observations.

 

If I had a $40,000 capsule machine that could cap it, why would I down C60 oil on Tuna?

That is amusing. I pass my throat with a #00 capsule and send those nanobots to my stomach.

The DR Caps appear to allow my supplements to bypass the stomach acids and have been shown by xray

that these caps open further down the digestion track in the acid free environment of the small intestine.

BUT, these caps are too expensive.

The UK guy on Ebay sold over 600 orders of just the hundred #00 DR Caps!

I might buy 1,000 of the DR Caps and save some money 100 caps only last me 50 days.

Then there are the Chinese selling knock off DR caps that I do not trust. I think they are fake DR caps.

I emailed the manufacturer for DR caps and they will not talk to me I am a little guy and not a supplement vendor.

 

While you are eating C60 on Tuna I am enjoying it without any yucky tastes.  :cool:

Have Fun!

 



#17 katzenjammer

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 04:35 PM

Is there any known issue with interacting with pharmaceuticals?  For instance and particularly, would c60 blunt the effects or increase the rate at which the body excretes a pharmaceutical?  Say, such as an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist? 



#18 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:44 PM

 

I take the full dose about every 6 months or so. It is disgusting, but adding about a cup of oil to a tuna salad, somewhat helps. I wouldn't use DR caps as I agree with niner regarding the digestion and also because the caps don't do well with oils. The nitrogen protected Licaps we use for some capsules could be great to use, but you need a specialized machine that runs about $40,000 to $60,000. All in all, its not practical, specially for folks that take the full dose.

 

What conditions might benefit from C60oo?

From my personal experience ...

<Deleted>

 

​Sorry niner, I just read Calibans thread and took out my anecdotal observations.

 

If I had a $40,000 capsule machine that could cap it, why would I down C60 oil on Tuna?

 

 

Uhmm... because a cup of C60 Olive Oil alone tastes horrible...

 

Notice the word... cup again, as in close to a full measuring cup... not a syringe, or a teaspoon... but a measuring cup of... oil.  :wacko:



#19 bixbyte

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 06:47 PM

 

 

I take the full dose about every 6 months or so. It is disgusting, but adding about a cup of oil to a tuna salad, somewhat helps. I wouldn't use DR caps as I agree with niner regarding the digestion and also because the caps don't do well with oils. The nitrogen protected Licaps we use for some capsules could be great to use, but you need a specialized machine that runs about $40,000 to $60,000. All in all, its not practical, specially for folks that take the full dose.

 

What conditions might benefit from C60oo?

From my personal experience ...

<Deleted>

 

​Sorry niner, I just read Calibans thread and took out my anecdotal observations.

 

If I had a $40,000 capsule machine that could cap it, why would I down C60 oil on Tuna?

 

 

Uhmm... because a cup of C60 Olive Oil alone tastes horrible...

 

Notice the word... cup again, as in close to a full measuring cup... not a syringe, or a teaspoon... but a measuring cup of... oil.  :wacko:

 

 

MY MY MY Someone wants to Live Forever :-D .... A full cup of OIL is a lot of oil.

2,000 calories in a cup of Olive Oil does not sound very healthy. 

I saw the word cup but I took it for granted and thought your where mixing in a couple mg of Fullerenes within the cup of "oil".

Did I guess wrong? Just exactly or approximately how many mg of C60 per tuna / oil did you eat?

Do you notice any positive or negative effects? 


Edited by bixbyte, 22 April 2015 - 07:24 PM.


#20 bixbyte

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:25 PM

Is there any known issue with interacting with pharmaceuticals?  For instance and particularly, would c60 blunt the effects or increase the rate at which the body excretes a pharmaceutical?  Say, such as an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist? 

What To Think About

Tell your doctor about all of the other medicines that you take, including prescription and over-the-counter medicines. ARBs may interact with other medicines such as NSAID pain relievers (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs), antacids, potassium supplements, certain diuretics, and lithium. If you are taking one of these medicines, talk with your doctor before taking an ARB.

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#21 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:44 PM

MY MY MY Someone wants to Live Forever :-D .... A full cup of OIL is a lot of oil.

2,000 calories in a cup of Olive Oil does not sound very healthy. 

I saw the word cup but I took it for granted and thought your where mixing in a couple mg of Fullerenes within the cup of "oil".

Did I guess wrong? Just exactly or approximately how many mg of C60 per tuna / oil did you eat?

Do you notice any positive or negative effects? 

 

 

Lol!

 

Who doesn't want to live forever?  ;)

 

I don't take it everyday, only once every 6 months or so, for 7 days straight.

And the cup of oil gets added as "salad drssing" to my tuna salad...

 

Its still icky though..

A


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#22 niner

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:51 PM

The DR Caps appear to allow my supplements to bypass the stomach acids and have been shown by xray

that these caps open further down the digestion track in the acid free environment of the small intestine.

BUT, these caps are too expensive.

The UK guy on Ebay sold over 600 orders of just the hundred #00 DR Caps!

I might buy 1,000 of the DR Caps and save some money 100 caps only last me 50 days.

 

bixbyte, why do you need these expensive acid-proof capsules?  Is there anything that you're taking that's acid sensitive?  I can't think of any common supplements where that's the case.



#23 bixbyte

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 10:06 PM

 

The DR Caps appear to allow my supplements to bypass the stomach acids and have been shown by xray

that these caps open further down the digestion track in the acid free environment of the small intestine.

BUT, these caps are too expensive.

The UK guy on Ebay sold over 600 orders of just the hundred #00 DR Caps!

I might buy 1,000 of the DR Caps and save some money 100 caps only last me 50 days.

 

bixbyte, why do you need these expensive acid-proof capsules?  Is there anything that you're taking that's acid sensitive?  I can't think of any common supplements where that's the case.

 

 

 

Currently I am using two capsules per day for Resveratrol or Polydatin in a DR Capsule #00

And I am thinking of trying to swallow one DR Cap with OIL and C60.

But right now I am using the old standard Kosher Capsule #00 w. C60 Oil.

Since I think the oil might melt the capsule and I would be wasting 25 cents on DR caps.

#00 Kosher caps costs about 2 to 3 cents so I do not mind wasting them and eliminating the pepper taste.

I can almost fit 1 ML of Oil into a #00 capsule.

Probably melts going down since I believe olive oil is a slight bit acidic?

But I guess since DR caps are acid resistant maybe they would pass the C60 into your small intestine.

Does it help? Not certain. But, if the fullerenes become stuck in my throat are they being wasted?

Where would be the best place for the Fullerene molecules to go?

That and many more questions I do not know the answer.   

 

Lastly Efficacy, Someone please gives us some Efficacy? 



#24 sagafemina

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 01:13 AM

From my personal experience ...

<Deleted>

 

​Sorry niner, I just read Calibans thread and took out my anecdotal observations.

I think the reason this thread was started was because Caliban gave up on moderating the purely scientific discussion since it was very hard to define or keep supposedly "pure science" separated from the experiences/questions of curious users/potential users.  So no need to apologize, IMO. 

 

Now, as to Katzenjammer's question regarding medications/interactions, I had just posted a query/recommendation regarding separating out taking this stuff from anything else you are taking because of the POTENTIAL for it to absorb or otherwise inactivate active ingredients before the old thread was inactivated. 

No one knows the answer to this, it is just good general practice w.r.t. medications, supplements, etc.  and maybe especially with something made out of carbon. 

 

Last, niner, thanks for starting this thread.  It doesn't seem to have a whole lot of participants yet.  Has anyone invited the active users of the old thread, or are we assuming that they probably just don't want to chime in here?  Am I correct that the old one was inactivated?  I didn't see any way to reply when I got the notice by Caliban. 

 

 

 

Is there any known issue with interacting with pharmaceuticals?  For instance and particularly, would c60 blunt the effects or increase the rate at which the body excretes a pharmaceutical?  Say, such as an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist? 

See above.  I was trying to "multiquote" but it only appeared I had "uniquoted".  Then this dropped in.  Consider it part of my learning curve. 


Edited by sagafemina, 23 April 2015 - 01:15 AM.


#25 sagafemina

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 01:23 AM

 

 

I take the full dose about every 6 months or so. It is disgusting, but adding about a cup of oil to a tuna salad, somewhat helps.

 

 

Uhmm... because a cup of C60 Olive Oil alone tastes horrible...

 

Notice the word... cup again, as in close to a full measuring cup... not a syringe, or a teaspoon... but a measuring cup of... oil.  :wacko:

 

 

So, OK, it sounds like you are taking maybe 1/7 of a cup per day for a week.  Who knows about the dosing?  Everyone here is guessing.  About a lot (almost everything!)

 

But it was worrisome to think of anyone ever downing a cup of olive oil.  Unless of course you were trying a naturopathic remedy for gallstones...

 

Here's a secret, though, if you ever did really need to consume a cup of olive oil.  Do it with eggplant.  Like a sponge. 
 


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#26 niner

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 03:03 AM

So, OK, it sounds like you are taking maybe 1/7 of a cup per day for a week.  Who knows about the dosing?  Everyone here is guessing.  About a lot (almost everything!)

 

Some guesses are better than others...  We know that rats given large doses developed brown particles in spleen macrophages, and there was a dose-response observed.  That's a reasonable argument against megadosing.  I think it would be better for Anthony to split the cup up into a number of smaller doses, taken somewhere between weekly and monthly. 

 

Edit:  Regarding the "needs references" rating, scroll up to the top of the page.  I might be laboring under the false assumption that people read the whole thread before commenting...


Edited by niner, 23 April 2015 - 12:48 PM.

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#27 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 03:48 AM

 

So, OK, it sounds like you are taking maybe 1/7 of a cup per day for a week.  Who knows about the dosing?  Everyone here is guessing.  About a lot (almost everything!)

 

Some guesses are better than others...  We know that rats given large doses developed brown particles in spleen macrophages, and there was a dose-response observed.  That's a reasonable argument against megadosing.  I think it would be better for Anthony to split the cup up into a number of smaller doses, taken somewhere between weekly and monthly. 

 

 

niner... Is there Evidence that C60 brown spots in splenic macrophages are a bad thing or is it just your Feeling that it's a bad thing?


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 23 April 2015 - 03:49 AM.


#28 pone11

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:35 AM

I think the reason this thread was started was because Caliban gave up on moderating the purely scientific discussion since it was very hard to define or keep supposedly "pure science" separated from the experiences/questions of curious users/potential users.  So no need to apologize, IMO. 

tions.

 

 

Right, and already this thread is degenerating into personal protocols and experiences, nothing to do with science behind C60 at all.

 

There are other threads on Longecity that talk about personal experiences with C60 and protocols for how to take it.   A science thread should be about mechanisms of action, publishing other studies, and discussion of the original research.


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#29 pone11

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:53 AM

 

niner... Is there Evidence that C60 brown spots in splenic macrophages are a bad thing or is it just your Feeling that it's a bad thing?

 

 

Is there evidence that C60 brown spots in splenic macrophages are a good thing?

 

Are people going to take observations of abnormalities as non-events unless the person making the observations does a further study to prove to them that the observation results in a bad health outcome?   That's not a conservative approach to self experimentation.

 

We are dealing with research substances for which there are no long-term safety studies in humans.   Based on the research done on a similar antioxidant IAC in rodents, there is every reason to believe that C60 might extend human lifespan "a lot" at specific (as yet unknown) doses and might decrease human lifespan "a lot" at megadoses.   See Table 1:

http://biomedgeronto...na.glu160.short

 

People are taking these things assuming they are benign at any dose, and that they can just turn off the experiment at any moment when they start to feel bad.   But as we have discussed in other threads, C60 may be binding into mitochondrial membranes with very long half-lives, and when you take C60 you may end up absorbing higher and higher densities into membranes for more than a year after you start taking it.   The analogy would be taking cesium, which has a long half-life on its own inside the body.   They have tried using cesium as an alkalizing therapy to kill cancer cells.  Everything goes fine for the first few weeks, but people don't understand that the long half life means it takes 200 days of continuous use for cesium to reach a steady state dose.   People have died with this therapy months after starting it because they deplete potassium in the cell.   By the time they go into cardiac arrest you cannot reverse the condition by simply stopping cesium.   It takes too much time to unwind.

 

When you are taking powerful chemicals without basic research, finding the minimal effective dose is just good common sense.  Using observations of abnormal effects in the body - even if not proven to be pathological - is a very reasonable way to try to establish where the minimum effective dose ends, and where the Twilight Zone begins.


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#30 niner

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 12:55 PM

 

I think the reason this thread was started was because Caliban gave up on moderating the purely scientific discussion since it was very hard to define or keep supposedly "pure science" separated from the experiences/questions of curious users/potential users.  So no need to apologize, IMO. 

tions.

 

Right, and already this thread is degenerating into personal protocols and experiences, nothing to do with science behind C60 at all.

 

There are other threads on Longecity that talk about personal experiences with C60 and protocols for how to take it.   A science thread should be about mechanisms of action, publishing other studies, and discussion of the original research.

 

Yeah, I didn't think it would be this bad.  Maybe we do need a strictly moderated thread, but there's always a subjective point over when a post is "sciency enough".  It's really rude to delete posts, but moving them into a different thread is a hassle with our software.







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