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Long term risk of topical retionic acid?

retina tretionin risk

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#1 Reincarnatian

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 10:44 PM


Hi all

 

Has anyone made any research into the long-term risk of applying retinoic acid creams daily or similar?

In addition, what about the systemic absorption?

 


Edited by Reincarnatian, 16 May 2015 - 10:45 PM.


#2 mustardseed41

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 11:21 PM

From my many years of reading about retinoic acid and using it for over 20 years, the long term risk is in NOT using it in the first place. As in your skin will not look as good as it could be.

It has been proven for over 30 years and is highly regarded by any competent dermatologist.

 

You don't need to use it daily to receive the benefits. 3 times a week does wonders. I use it every other nite.

 

There are some who cant use it no matter what they do. Their skin is that sensitive. For the majority that try it and give up, they started out too fast and used it the wrong way and then blamed the product for all their issues.

 

Systemic absorption has never been proven to be an issue.


Edited by mustardseed41, 16 May 2015 - 11:23 PM.

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#3 ta5

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 05:53 AM

Here are some negative thoughts about Retin-A:

 

Aging and dry eye disease

Ding J, Sullivan DA.
Exp Gerontol. 2012 Jul;47(7):483-90.
PMID: 22569356

 

Even though randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled clinical studies on the anti-aging efficacy of retinoids are scarce and lack statistical confirmation (Levin and Momin 2010),this does not thwart the fast growing market for RA-based anti-aging cosmetics. ...

 

Unfortunately one side effect of RA cream is dryness of the skin. In fact, 13-cis retinoic acid (13-cis RA), also known as isotretinoin or Accutane, was initially used to treat acne before it found its way into the anti-aging cosmetics. It is highly effective in reducing sebaceous gland size by inhibiting sebocyte proliferation, differentiation and sebum production (Zouboulis 2006). Not surprisingly, RA causes MGD and dry eye disease, given that meibomian gland is a sebaceous gland. RA causes keratinization and thickening of the meibomian gland ducts (Lambert and Smith 1989), degeneration and necrosis of the acinar cells (Kremer and others 1994), fibrosis of the periacinar tissue, and reduced lipid content in meibomian gland (Lambert and Smith 1989). Further, isotretinoin exposure is associated with tear film instability and hyperosmolarity, dry eye symptoms and blepharitis (Bozkurt and others 2002; Fraunfelder 2004; Karalezli and others 2009; Santodomingo-Rubido and others 2008). In effect, RA promotes MGD and evaporative dry eye disease (Knop and others 2011).

 
In the sebaceous gland, RA decreases basal sebocyte proliferation, prohibits sebocyte terminal differentiation, induces sebocyte apoptosis, and suppresses sebum production up to 90% (Nelson and others 2006). These effects appear to be mediated through receptor-dependent and –independent actions (Nelson and others 2006; Tsukada and others 2000) and alterations in gene expression (Nelson and others 2008). In addition, RA may suppress androgen receptors (Ubels and others 2003; Ubels and others 2002) and inhibit retinol dehydrogenase-4 in sebaceous glands (Karlsson and others 2003), which would diminish the local, intracrine production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Of interest, specific deletion of scd-1 in the mouse skin causes a robust elevation of retinol, RA and RA-induced genes in the skin (Flowers and others 2011). This indicates that not only does RA inhibit androgen action in the sebaceous gland, but disruption of an important androgen target gene also leads to enhanced RA activity, therefore androgens and RA have antagonistic actions in the sebaceous gland. By analogy, these actions of RA would similarly attenuate androgen activity in meibomian gland and lead to MGD.
 

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#4 mustardseed41

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 03:06 PM

How can you compare Accutane to Retin-A?



#5 Brett Black

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 03:54 AM

Some of the long-term carcinogenesis testing of tretinoin in rodents raises concerns for me (however the validity and relevance of at least some of these test has been questioned):

 

 

"Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, Impairment of Fertility:  

 

In a 91-week dermal study in which CD-1 mice were administered 0.017% and 0.035% formulations of tretinoin, cutaneous squamous cell carcinomas and papillomas in the treatment area were observed in some female mice. These concentrations are near the tretinoin concentration of this clinical formulation (0.02%). A dose-related incidence of liver tumors in male mice was observed at those same doses. The maximum systemic doses associated with the 0.017% and 0.035% formulations are 0.5 and 1.0 mg/kg/day. These doses are 10 and 20 times the maximum human systemic dose, when adjusted for total body surface area. The biological significance of these findings is not clear because they occurred at doses that exceeded the dermal maximally tolerated dose (MTD) of tretinoin and because they were within the background natural occurrence rate for these tumors in this strain of mice. There was no evidence of carcinogenic potential when 0.025 mg/kg/day of tretinoin was administered topically to mice (0.5 times the maximum human systemic dose, adjusted for total body surface area). For purposes of comparisons of the animal exposure to systemic human exposure, the maximum human systemic dose is defined as 1 gram of 0.02% RENOVA applied daily to a 50 kg person (0.004 mg tretinoin/kg body weight)."

 

"Studies in hairless albino mice suggest that concurrent exposure to tretinoin may enhance the tumorigenic potential of carcinogenic doses of UVB and UVA light from a solar simulator. This effect has been confirmed in a later study in pigmented mice, and dark pigmentation did not overcome the enhancement of photocarcinogenesis by 0.05% tretinoin. Although the significance of these studies to humans is not clear, patients should minimize exposure to sunlight or artificial ultraviolet irradiation sources."

http://www.drugs.com...0-02-cream.html

 

 

 

 

 

Results

As expected, exposure to synthetic solar light resulted in a variety of skin cancers in the mice. Mice given the carrier creams in addition to light exposure developed more tumors per animal, with a shorter time before the appearance of tumors. Mice given creams containing retinyl palmitate or retinoic acid had even more tumors and earlier onset of tumors than animals given the carrier cream, both with and without exposure to the synthetic solar light.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23001333

http://ntp.niehs.nih...s/TR568_508.pdf

 

 


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#6 Reincarnatian

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:16 AM

Totally forgot this topic. 

Do you dillute your RA in a carrier base, e.g. an 500 ml lotion so it equals 0.025% or lower, and apply it 1-2-3 times a week to the whole body? 

I just thought it is a lot of RA and was worried about the systemic absorbtion over decades, will update if I find anything special.

From my many years of reading about retinoic acid and using it for over 20 years, the long term risk is in NOT using it in the first place. As in your skin will not look as good as it could be.

It has been proven for over 30 years and is highly regarded by any competent dermatologist.

 

You don't need to use it daily to receive the benefits. 3 times a week does wonders. I use it every other nite.

 

There are some who cant use it no matter what they do. Their skin is that sensitive. For the majority that try it and give up, they started out too fast and used it the wrong way and then blamed the product for all their issues.

 

Systemic absorption has never been proven to be an issue.

 



#7 Reincarnatian

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 03:08 AM

http://www.medscape....rticle/733085_5

 

"..... Adverse Effects of Tretinoin Treatment – how Can they be Diminished? Adverse events of retinoid therapy include systemic and local effects.

Systemic adverse events: Since its introduction as a topical drug, no systemic adverse effects have been reported for topical tretinoin application (reviewed in reference[16]). Topical tretinoin (either single-dose or long-term treatment) did not affect the endogenous levels of tretinoin or its metabolites.[49] The results were attributed to the insignificant systemic absorption of approximately 2% of the applied dose........"

 

Pyhh, i thought the systemic absorbtion rate would be much higher - like two digits, I was also suprised over a saw an significant amount of people talking about applying it all over the body, without any comments on systemic absorbtion on the skincaretalk forum. 


Edited by Reincarnatian, 19 January 2016 - 03:14 AM.


#8 niner

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:12 AM

Pyhh, i thought the systemic absorbtion rate would be much higher - like two digits, I was also suprised over a saw an significant amount of people talking about applying it all over the body, without any comments on systemic absorbtion on the skincaretalk forum. 

 

All over the body?  Hmm.  About ten years ago I put a dab of retinoic acid (low concentration, at that!) on the back of my hand, and quickly developed eczema that remains to this day.  I was able to use retinaldehyde on my face successfully on a long term basis.  Retinoic acid hasn't racked up the large numbers of injured people that Accutane has, but I gotta say, those retinoids are some powerful shit.


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#9 mustardseed41

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:15 AM

 

Totally forgot this topic. 

Do you dillute your RA in a carrier base, e.g. an 500 ml lotion so it equals 0.025% or lower, and apply it 1-2-3 times a week to the whole body? 

I just thought it is a lot of RA and was worried about the systemic absorbtion over decades, will update if I find anything special.

From my many years of reading about retinoic acid and using it for over 20 years, the long term risk is in NOT using it in the first place. As in your skin will not look as good as it could be.

It has been proven for over 30 years and is highly regarded by any competent dermatologist.

 

You don't need to use it daily to receive the benefits. 3 times a week does wonders. I use it every other nite.

 

There are some who cant use it no matter what they do. Their skin is that sensitive. For the majority that try it and give up, they started out too fast and used it the wrong way and then blamed the product for all their issues.

 

Systemic absorption has never been proven to be an issue.

 

 

I strongly advise against using it all over your body. Just makes no sense. Nobody does that except extreme nut jobs. :)  Arms and hands are cool.


Edited by mustardseed41, 19 January 2016 - 05:16 AM.

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#10 Santi

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:13 AM

There has been a discussion for many years about if retinoids down-regulate telomerase and telomere length in skin cells similar to what they do in cancer cells.

This would mean while your skin looks better when you use it than when you don't you would actually be accelerating a form of skin aging. If it does down-regulate telomerase and decreases telomere length it would cause an increase the risk of skin cancer when exposed to UV rays. As short telomere length is associated with cancer and chromosome instability.
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