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Medications for improving empathy + kindness + friendliness?

depression anhedonia empathy

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#1 AlexCanada

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 02:46 PM


What kind of medications or substances may help? Pregnenolone has some benefits but it's very inconsistent and the gaba antagonism may not be good for my benzo withdrawal. The effects are still very profound though and there is a much greater general appreciation and sense of kindness/fondness for others when effects are peaking.

 

What else might be of benefit?  Gabapentin in the short term has some benefits but they do not last. 

 

I am also looking for pro-social medications.  I am seeing my doctor tomorrow and hope I can have some decent suggestions. I am very anti-social most of the time and do not want to interact with others. I have lot of anhedonia, low emotions usually, lot of apathy and very poor motivation + cognitive problems with dense brain fog. Also some general anxiety issues. Too often I am very irritable, negative, and cold. When I was healthier I was very much the opposite.

 

I been considering atomoxetine, mementine, Levomilnacipran /Fetzima for my anhedonic depression as my next options. Any insights for these and others? 

 

Also how difficult is it for a doctor to prescribe estrogen to a male? My levels are very low and it also correlates with mood + various other symptoms including collagen loss in my face. I look very unhealthy. 

 

 

BTW:  Are mood stablizers like Lamictal viable options? It was a long time go but Lamictal made me feel more pleasant, but unfortunately I felt very stupid on it.  What alternatives to Lamictal may be viable



#2 pinnacle

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 03:45 AM

Buspirone worked for me, also Tianeptine used occasionally! You could look into natural ways to raise oxytocin...

 

Herbs: Rhodiola, Ashwagandha, maybe Bacopa. Theanine?

 

The Uridine + DHA stack worked for me to an extent, but don't expect anything miraculous.

 

Test for other things like: thyroid, zinc, vitamin D status.

 

Don't forget exercise and good sleep patterns.

 

Search around these forums, there are plenty of others similar to you.  :)


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#3 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 01:31 PM

Good diet (mostly plant based, reduce carbs, avoid refined sugar, soda, hydrogenated vegetable oils and other processed foods).

 

Get at least 6 hours of sleep per night, preferably between 7 and 8.

 

Some sort of regular exercise. If you are sedentary, start with taking a walk every day.

 

Once you've extended your walk time to around 40 minutes, that may be all you need for mood purposes.

Finally, I recommend googling and practicing daily metta meditation as that is directly targeted to increase friendliness and compassion for yourself and all sentient life.



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#4 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 06:30 AM

I recommend vortioxetine above all for this effect. It is a near full agonist at the 5HT1a receptor, which releases oxytocin. The release of oxytocin this way is what causes MDMA to be the 'love drug'. MDMA releases loads of serotonin, and among all the other 5HT receptors, 5HT1a gets highly activated, releasing large amounts of oxytocin.

 

Vilazodone also effects the 5HT1a receptor, and so does Buspar, but not as strongly as vortioxetine.


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#5 NeuroNootropic

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 02:31 AM

Try a combination of Rhodiola and Maca. I've used this combo in the past and it was wonderful for anhedonia, sociability and emotions. Rhodiola increases serotonin and the number of 5-HT1A receptors in the brain. Maca can help with the low estrogen symptoms as it's been shown to ameliorate menopause symptoms.


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#6 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 02:55 AM

Try a combination of Rhodiola and Maca. I've used this combo in the past and it was wonderful for anhedonia, sociability and emotions. Rhodiola increases serotonin and the number of 5-HT1A receptors in the brain. Maca can help with the low estrogen symptoms as it's been shown to ameliorate menopause symptoms.


Rhodiola can increase serotonin because it's an MAOI. However, I am non-rhetorically asking for a study showing it increases 5HT1A receptor density, as I've never heard of that before.

The problem with Rhodiola and other 'adaptogens' like Ashwagandha is that they lose a lot of their effect with consistent use. They should only be used as needed, 1-3 (max) times per week.

The problem with maca is the quality of the studies. I don't feel there's been enough high quality research on it to draw any firm conclusions yet.

#7 VerdeGo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:38 AM

Before jumping into a lot of substances, I'd pick up some therapeutic grade lemon essential oil, put a few drops on your skin (or inhale it), and you should feel much more talkative, happy, and friendly. It contains a host of flavonoids and terpenes, one of which being beta-pinene, which is a known 5HT3 antagonist. I was very skeptical of essential oils, but after getting into meditation, the proper diet, and exercising more, I decided to give them a try. I've only used two (lavender is great for relaxation, calming agitation, etc.), but lemon oil stands out as a subtle yet effective approach to your issue. Citrus oils in general are pro-social and mood elevating, and are without the side effects of most supplements and especially prescription drugs. If only I knew what I know now before jumping into various supplements, I probably would have found inner peace a lot sooner. 


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#8 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:54 AM

Before jumping into a lot of substances, I'd pick up some therapeutic grade lemon essential oil, put a few drops on your skin (or inhale it), and you should feel much more talkative, happy, and friendly. It contains a host of flavonoids and terpenes, one of which being beta-pinene, which is a known 5HT3 antagonist. I was very skeptical of essential oils, but after getting into meditation, the proper diet, and exercising more, I decided to give them a try. I've only used two (lavender is great for relaxation, calming agitation, etc.), but lemon oil stands out as a subtle yet effective approach to your issue. Citrus oils in general are pro-social and mood elevating, and are without the side effects of most supplements and especially prescription drugs. If only I knew what I know now before jumping into various supplements, I probably would have found inner peace a lot sooner.


Sorry, but I can't find anything to back up these claims. :(
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#9 VerdeGo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:02 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17511060

 

The effect of the volatile oil from ginger rhizomes (Zingiber officinale), its fractions and isolated compounds on the 5-HT3 receptor complex and the serotoninergic system of the rat ileum.
Abstract

A contribution of the volatile oil from ginger rhizomes (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) on inhabiting the 5-HT3 receptor complex had been shown. In the present study a possible interaction of some compounds of the volatile oil with the 5-HT3 receptor system expressed in N1E-115 cells and with the serotoninergic system of the rat ileum was investigated. The volatile oil was obtained by steam distillation and fractionated using a silica gel column resulting in five fractions. Compounds of the fractions were identified by GC-MS. The influence of the volatile oil, its fractions and pure components on serotonin-induced [14C]guanidinium influx into N1E-115 cells was measured indicating the inhibitory interaction with the 5-HT3 receptor channel system. Most potent inhibitors of cation influx were the volatile oil, fraction 4, beta-pinene, terpinolene, alpha-copaene and alpha-phellandrene. The volatile oil and fractions 1 and 4 were not able to significantly influence either serotonin (10 microM)-induced maximum contraction of the rat ileum or the second phase of the biphasic contraction 2.5 min after serotonin addition. However, beta-pinene, terpinolene and alpha-phellandrene reduced both contractions. In conclusion, the volatile oil and distinct compounds such as terpinolene, beta-pinene and alpha-phellandrene interact with 5-HT3 receptor channel system and possess an antispasmodic effect at the rat ileum.

 



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#10 VerdeGo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:11 AM

https://books.google...mon oil&f=false



#11 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:14 AM

Well, first of all, you said lemon oil. This is Ginger. From the study:

It can be summarised that publications on pharmacological investigations on the volatile oil of ginger could hardly be found in the literature. Especially its contribution to the antiemetic effect of ginger has not been elucidated so far. The volatile oil of ginger and some of its components act on the 5-HT3 receptor channel system as antagonists. None of the tested compounds was on its own as effective as a chemical lead compound (setrone), but many contribute to the antiserotoninergic effect of the volatile oil. The rat ileum forms a very complex system and does not allow conclusions about the mechanism of action of the volatile oil and its components on the serotoninergic system of the gut but hints at the involvement of the serotonin system. Doses of the volatile oil and its components being used in our experiments are obtained by taking 2g[b]!!![/b[ of the crude drug daily according to the recommendations of the German Kommission E [22]. It is concluded that the volatile oil may contribute to the antiemetic effect of ginger by its 5-HT3 receptor channel complex interaction. It is, therefore, important to produce and use ginger extracts or plant material that contain high yields of volatile oil for treatment of nausea and vomiting.


So possible effects on the 5HT3 receptor. However, this receptor is linked to nausea and other more 'physical' things, not so much to mood, anxiety, relaxation, or social effects. Otherwise, Ondansetron would make people feel great, which would go a long way in helping cancer patients.

#12 Flex

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:50 PM

Dopamine Modulates Egalitarian Behavior in Humans

http://www.sciencedi...960982215001359

 

Serotonin:

 

Unselfish genes? The quest to uncover neurochemical influences on prosocial behavior

Inline with this prediction, work has shown that acute administration of the SSRI citalopram increases prosocial behavior by making people more sensitive to other people's harm (Crockett, Clark, Hauser, & Robbins, 2010).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3837527/

 

Just a further piece to the Puzzle

Looking on the bright side of serotonin transporter gene variation.

we review recent findings that humans and nonhuman primates carrying the s variant of the 5-HTTLPR outperform subjects carrying the long allele in an array of cognitive tasks and show increased social conformity

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21047622

 

This one seems to be interresting:

Tackling Negative Symptoms of Schizophrenia with Memantine

Memantine was increased to 20 mg/day and biperiden was decreased to 2 mg/day.

Two months later, apathy and asociality considerably improved and affective flattening, alogia, and attention slightly got better (SANS 76, SAPS 1, MMSE 26, and CDSS 1).

After two more months, the improvement continued in the same domains (SANS: 70, SAPS: 1 MMSE: 27, and CDSS: 1)

http://www.hindawi.c...014/384783/abs/

 

Consider PSSD(Post SSRI sexual disorder) before You touch any SSRI or SNRI.

This leads to an perresistent increase of Serotonine, which decreases Libido, sexual desire, causes impotence and even penile anestenia for weeks to Years(20 years in one case) and might make You dumb and either increase or decrease anxiety(?) but definitive make shy.

And even Dopamine agonists (the top of the tops, which funny wise can cause DAWS.. for Years) arent relieveing everything ! so its really really hard to treat !


Edited by Flex, 28 May 2015 - 04:52 PM.

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#13 AlexCanada

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 07:24 PM

Buspirone worked for me, also Tianeptine used occasionally! You could look into natural ways to raise oxytocin...

 

Herbs: Rhodiola, Ashwagandha, maybe Bacopa. Theanine?

 

The Uridine + DHA stack worked for me to an extent, but don't expect anything miraculous.

 

Test for other things like: thyroid, zinc, vitamin D status.

 

Don't forget exercise and good sleep patterns.

 

Search around these forums, there are plenty of others similar to you.  :)

 

Taineptine has benefits but side effects on secondary doses become bit severe with the sleepiness, tiredness and intense body warmth. Not to mention some creepy type feelings.

 

 

Rhodiola is a miracle herb for energy and productivity but beyond the first day it often doesn't do much for mood, if anything it even tends to make me very aggressive and irritable. Highly mentally stimulating and not in a positive way. Makes me feel sometimes like I am more fit to participate in physical activity but the negative mood from rhodiola is something I often regret. What is motivation if I feel unable to enjoy what I am putting my energy towards? It's very difficult to dose and I suspect it might be causing some hypoglycemic reactions. My blood sugar is low enough already.  I am finding myself in dire need of a motivational agent and thus I may have to start low dose rhodiola up again :(. Wish I had alternatives because I been starting to become bedridden past few days. The feeling I get from rhodiola is a feeling of adrenaline and aggression. Allowed me to be more involved when I watched some seasons of Survivor past few weeks since it's a show about competition. But general interest still remained so poor and the dislike of others, negativity towards others was a very common rhodiola side effect.  I use Rhodiola NOW brand. I used to use Rhodiola Verde Mind Body and Spirit which was an amazing brand and allowed me to feel more kindness but that brand is off the market :(.    Any better rhodiola sources?? I have tried so many and it feels like I am tossing my money in the drain. I have Rhodiola Paradise Herbs. Rhodiola Sisu. Arctic Root from sweden (which seems to make me more tired rather than energized). Maybe that brand is more hypoglyemic? Who knows.  But it's such an inconsistent herb where the biggest benefits develop immense tolerance! Mood elevation is only first day or two but always comes with some aggression.

 

Uridine short term seemed to make me even more apathetic than usual. Dopamine downregulation??   Felt like such a waste of money. :(

 

Ashwag had some profound mood benefits beyond the initial sedation but tolerance develops quickly for me. Eventually it felt like I needed more and more and would crave taking another dose. I would end up feeling worse and clearly was dealing with withdrawals. I already am dealing with PAWS from Benzo valium withdrawl (down to 1.2mg a day). So ashwag may not be ideal for my situation. 

 

 

Holy Basil had some pro-love effects but I cannot take it anymore due to the sharp drop in blood sugar. Such effects make me so dreadfully tired and want to sleep.   

 

 

Modulating blood sugar may allow more kindness due to simple reasoning of no longer having low blood sugar!  if only I knew how.     Any time I eat I feel so dreadfully worn out :(. I hate eating. 

 

 

I'm considering Collostrum soon. Maybe Glucosamine. Memantine I might order. Phyto-Estrogen cream I tried past few days and may try again tomorrow.  Will pick up Lemon Oil next week + Dandelion Tincture.  May retry calcium as it has some benefits once in a while.  Also i took some taineptine 5mg 30 minutes ago and Yohimbine 4mg 1 hour ago + a banana.  Something is improving as I could not consider making a post hours ago. 

 

Any worth in Manganese? Or Turmeric? And Soy Isoflavones?  


Edited by AlexCanada, 28 May 2015 - 07:29 PM.


#14 AlexCanada

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 07:36 PM

I recommend vortioxetine above all for this effect. It is a near full agonist at the 5HT1a receptor, which releases oxytocin. The release of oxytocin this way is what causes MDMA to be the 'love drug'. MDMA releases loads of serotonin, and among all the other 5HT receptors, 5HT1a gets highly activated, releasing large amounts of oxytocin.

 

Vilazodone also effects the 5HT1a receptor, and so does Buspar, but not as strongly as vortioxetine.

 

I tried Vortioxetine for about a month. Motivation was still lackluster but I was able to marathon and appreciate many seasons of Survivor on some level. Though I was often taking low dose modafinil or Vyvanse depending on the day. Also Rhodiola at least half the time. Pregnenolone 3mg every other day. Low dose ginkgo at times. Low dose gabapentin at times. 

 

The vort gave me serious sick feelings in my stomach which often would persist for several hours and even onto the next day. Is this higher risk for people with IBS? I have had some form of IBS for a long time. I generally felt less depression on Vortioxetine but a dull apathy. I could watch tv a bit etc but I had no real motivation to really do much and my mind felt very hazyyy and foggy. So it was one of the biggest reasons why I stopped taking it aside from the horrendousss stomach side effects. Also as my dose reached above 5mg I would often get some anxiety a few hours after dosing. Was def more than a bit uncomfortable. Though there were some benefits regardless. My cognition is bad enough and in the end not sure if it's worth it unless I try a very tiny dose. 

 

Buspar might be worth considering. I tried it long ago I think. don't recall how it effected me. 



#15 eon

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 11:52 PM

Something about serotonergics make me feel like I'm "losing it". It feels as if when I had serotonin syndrome. I guess anything that release or reuptakes serotonin doesn't respond well with me. I think antagonism of serotonin works better for me with the use of Lysine, I'm chill. What do you guys think of the reason for this? Is this because I don't really need much serotonin? I would think that's the case here. Not that anyone should overload on serotonin? From what I understand just enough of it is good enough, not too low or too high.



#16 VerdeGo

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 03:34 AM

California poppy is also a serotonin antagonist. If you tried cp, did you respond well to it? Lysine seemed to put me on edge and made me feel uncomfortable, so I haven't tried the cp extract I bought. Just curious.



#17 AlexCanada

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 04:13 AM

Dopamine in general I agree is capable of very profound pro-love benefits. Especially when I was trying L-Dopa Mucuna a few years ago but I felt worse the longer I took it. Possible downregulation. It sometimes felt like the kind feeling one gets from Vyvanse/Ritalin euphoria peak period but without the negative stim anxiety and dysphoric come down.  There was a very real kindness effect + general appreciation towards others.

 

3-5 years ago I had so much more of those kind feelings but I had more feelings in general. I'm too dulled out these days and my adrenals have wrecked havoc. Neg adrenaline stress reactions have toned down compared to few months ago gladly! Hopefully I can continue on the right track in that regard.

 

I took 12mg seroquel to see how I handle the sedation rather than 25mg. Def bit sedated. Bed soon.  Hopefully it can help somewhat for neg schizo symptoms + depression eventually when I work up the dose. Tomorrow I start Atomoxetine. Hopefully can help for motivation. Same class of medication as Viloxazine which remarkably helped my motivation immensely years ago but then it was taken off the market and unable to get a hold of it again. 

 

Pregenolone I decided to quit.The benefits usually arrive for me the next day but the inconsistencies are not worth it with oral form. I don't think my body is able to use this form of preg properly. My eyes sting so much and are extremely redd tonight an hour after 3-4mg dose. I even applied eye drops but no relief. My vision isn't the greatest and this can't be a good sign either. very re-occuring side effect. Plus it dropped my pulse to 54 tonight and initially I feel bit spacy. some calmner attitude but very anhedonic overall compared to yesterday. yesterday I took more gabapentin though. Lovely mild euphoric sensations 3 hours after dosing and oddly some positive adrenaline and mild excitement emerges but not sustainable in repeat doses. tolerance onset each day. plus it's initially sedating and a very dumbing medication usually. I felt like I wanted to do something. I wanted to speak to someone but my head was too far in the clouds. It's just not a very ''functional'' type of med for me unless a stimulant or similar substance is there to lift me out of the stupor. One thing to note is that gabapentin does def make me more friendly and more likely to speak to people, but absolutely not more capable of speaking with substance. It's almost like a bit of drunkenness. 

 

Korean Red Ginseng 50mg and 200mg Collostrum taken closely together...  Something here gave me a short term slightly manic experience about 1 hour later lasting over an hour but mostly evident so long as I was moving around. Otherwise I felt as if I was restricted by my blood circulation oddly enough. So I kept moving and kept feeling it. Then I'd lose it a bit if I stayed too still. I was feeling more expressive, and very theatrical. I felt I could act with such vigor and pretended I was on a tv show. It was quite something as I day dreamed in the shower a bit as well. But the anhedonic aspect remained. I felt it I could feel this but with some genuine interest I could have a good experience tonight but my interest would be worse after initial Ginseng dose unless coincidence. My blood sugar was effected and vision became desaturated within about 6 minutes (typical of many ginseng types I have tried).         When I feel my best I do generally feel very expressive and I would love to have that on a sustained basis. I love being able to have that form of passion. 1 year ago while taking a mix of high dose eleuthero root ginseng (500-800) + vyvanse + niacin (especially this), small gabapentin (less relevant) + occasional ginkgo + potassium  etc and I was able to have more of that but with the added benefit of not being deeply anhedonic. I had more interest and ability to feel genuinely some good pleasure and be able to cry during powerful moments on tv shows. Stims like Vy cannot be sustained though and I rather avoid for the long term. But something with those combos worked very well in unison. ele root drops bs, niacin raises it, possibly some sense of balance etc. 

 

Lemon Oil i tried little bit today but I had so many factors against me in the afternoon it was difficult to tell if it had much benefit. Will keep trying time to time in days ahead. 

 

I do have Maca Maca. May try it in few days depending how I feel. 

 

Motivation these days been very poor. I miss being able to interact with others in a meaningful fashion. To be capable of interacting in such conversation while additionally not feeling too mentally impaired would be a true blessing.


Edited by AlexCanada, 01 June 2015 - 04:29 AM.


#18 eon

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 05:54 AM

I haven't tried California poppy yet. I'm sure it doesn't have the opioid action as the papaver somniferum (heroin poppy) has. Let me know how it goes once you try it. What was your dosage of lysine?

 

What exact product of CP do you have?

 

"California poppy leaves were used medicinally by Native Americans, and the pollen was used cosmetically. The seeds are used in cooking.[2]

An aqueous extract of the plant has sedative and anxiolytic action.[10] The extract acts as a mild sedative when smoked. The effect is far milder than that of opium. California poppy contains a different class of alkaloids:[11][12]"

"An aqueous alcohol extract of Eschscholzia californica has been evaluated for benzodiazepine, neuroleptic, antidepressant, antihistaminic and analgesic properties. The plant extract did not protect mice against the convulsant effects of pentylenetetrazol, and did not cause muscle relaxant effects, but appeared to possess an affinity for the benzodiazepine receptor. The extract induced peripheral analgesic effects in mice but did not possess antidepressant, neuroleptic or antihistaminic effects."[13] Wikipedia

 

California poppy is also a serotonin antagonist. If you tried cp, did you respond well to it? Lysine seemed to put me on edge and made me feel uncomfortable, so I haven't tried the cp extract I bought. Just curious.

 


Edited by eon, 01 June 2015 - 06:30 AM.


#19 eon

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:24 AM

sounds like how I felt when I had serotonin syndrome. Be careful with the ginsengs!

 

 

Dopamine in general I agree is capable of very profound pro-love benefits. Especially when I was trying L-Dopa Mucuna a few years ago but I felt worse the longer I took it. Possible downregulation. It sometimes felt like the kind feeling one gets from Vyvanse/Ritalin euphoria peak period but without the negative stim anxiety and dysphoric come down.  There was a very real kindness effect + general appreciation towards others.

 

3-5 years ago I had so much more of those kind feelings but I had more feelings in general. I'm too dulled out these days and my adrenals have wrecked havoc. Neg adrenaline stress reactions have toned down compared to few months ago gladly! Hopefully I can continue on the right track in that regard.

 

I took 12mg seroquel to see how I handle the sedation rather than 25mg. Def bit sedated. Bed soon.  Hopefully it can help somewhat for neg schizo symptoms + depression eventually when I work up the dose. Tomorrow I start Atomoxetine. Hopefully can help for motivation. Same class of medication as Viloxazine which remarkably helped my motivation immensely years ago but then it was taken off the market and unable to get a hold of it again. 

 

Pregenolone I decided to quit.The benefits usually arrive for me the next day but the inconsistencies are not worth it with oral form. I don't think my body is able to use this form of preg properly. My eyes sting so much and are extremely redd tonight an hour after 3-4mg dose. I even applied eye drops but no relief. My vision isn't the greatest and this can't be a good sign either. very re-occuring side effect. Plus it dropped my pulse to 54 tonight and initially I feel bit spacy. some calmner attitude but very anhedonic overall compared to yesterday. yesterday I took more gabapentin though. Lovely mild euphoric sensations 3 hours after dosing and oddly some positive adrenaline and mild excitement emerges but not sustainable in repeat doses. tolerance onset each day. plus it's initially sedating and a very dumbing medication usually. I felt like I wanted to do something. I wanted to speak to someone but my head was too far in the clouds. It's just not a very ''functional'' type of med for me unless a stimulant or similar substance is there to lift me out of the stupor. One thing to note is that gabapentin does def make me more friendly and more likely to speak to people, but absolutely not more capable of speaking with substance. It's almost like a bit of drunkenness. 

 

Korean Red Ginseng 50mg and 200mg Collostrum taken closely together...  Something here gave me a short term slightly manic experience about 1 hour later lasting over an hour but mostly evident so long as I was moving around. Otherwise I felt as if I was restricted by my blood circulation oddly enough. So I kept moving and kept feeling it. Then I'd lose it a bit if I stayed too still. I was feeling more expressive, and very theatrical. I felt I could act with such vigor and pretended I was on a tv show. It was quite something as I day dreamed in the shower a bit as well. But the anhedonic aspect remained. I felt it I could feel this but with some genuine interest I could have a good experience tonight but my interest would be worse after initial Ginseng dose unless coincidence. My blood sugar was effected and vision became desaturated within about 6 minutes (typical of many ginseng types I have tried).         When I feel my best I do generally feel very expressive and I would love to have that on a sustained basis. I love being able to have that form of passion. 1 year ago while taking a mix of high dose eleuthero root ginseng (500-800) + vyvanse + niacin (especially this), small gabapentin (less relevant) + occasional ginkgo + potassium  etc and I was able to have more of that but with the added benefit of not being deeply anhedonic. I had more interest and ability to feel genuinely some good pleasure and be able to cry during powerful moments on tv shows. Stims like Vy cannot be sustained though and I rather avoid for the long term. But something with those combos worked very well in unison. ele root drops bs, niacin raises it, possibly some sense of balance etc. 

 

Lemon Oil i tried little bit today but I had so many factors against me in the afternoon it was difficult to tell if it had much benefit. Will keep trying time to time in days ahead. 

 

I do have Maca Maca. May try it in few days depending how I feel. 

 

Motivation these days been very poor. I miss being able to interact with others in a meaningful fashion. To be capable of interacting in such conversation while additionally not feeling too mentally impaired would be a true blessing.

 



#20 VerdeGo

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:08 AM

I have Herb Pharm California Poppy extract. A coworker recommended it to me and had good results with it, though he no longer uses it. It does not contain opium, nor does it ease pain in everyone who tries it. The results seem to be mixed, though most people who have reviewed it notice a sedative effect at higher doses and a calming effect at lower doses. The lysine I took was around the 250 mg range (I'm very sensitive to supplements for some reason. A dab of tyrosine powder from a capsule under my tongue produces very noticeable effects and produced a high level of agitation with continued usage). Let us know how it goes if you decided to try it. I'm still on the fence about taking it after the lackluster experience I had with lysine, though lemon (a different serotonin antagonist) gave me awesome results the one time I used it. 



#21 eon

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 05:58 AM

The dose of lysine I took was 500 mg at least 3 x a day so 1500 mg total. I'm not sure what you were trying to achieve if you were trying to sublingual tyrosine. Did you use the lemon fruit or some type of extract of it? Where are you getting the info. about California poppy and lemon being serotonin antagonists? I'd like to see some sources. I think I may have come across an article about lemon raising serotonin, but not sure if it's by way of antagonism or other ways. 

 

 

I have Herb Pharm California Poppy extract. A coworker recommended it to me and had good results with it, though he no longer uses it. It does not contain opium, nor does it ease pain in everyone who tries it. The results seem to be mixed, though most people who have reviewed it notice a sedative effect at higher doses and a calming effect at lower doses. The lysine I took was around the 250 mg range (I'm very sensitive to supplements for some reason. A dab of tyrosine powder from a capsule under my tongue produces very noticeable effects and produced a high level of agitation with continued usage). Let us know how it goes if you decided to try it. I'm still on the fence about taking it after the lackluster experience I had with lysine, though lemon (a different serotonin antagonist) gave me awesome results the one time I used it. 

 



#22 nicklesprout

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 09:42 PM

anybody try MDAI as an empathogen? i'm interested in finding and trying it, not sure where to find it though right now.



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#23 VerdeGo

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 05:20 AM

I used lemon essential oil, which involves 3,000 lemons to make one kilo of oil. Other plants/fruits varies. You're dealing with the most concentrated form of the substance.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16562853

 

J Nat Prod. 2006 Mar;69(3):432-5.
Alkaloids from Eschscholzia californica and their capacity to inhibit binding of [3H]8-Hydroxy-2-(di-N-propylamino)tetralin to 5-HT1A receptors in Vitro.
Abstract

A 70% ethanol extract of California poppy (Eschscholzia californica) was able to bind to 5-HT(1A) and 5-HT(7) receptors at 100 mug/mL. The subsequent isolation procedure yielded the known alkaloids californidine (1), escholtzine (2), N-methyllaurotetanine (3), caryachine (4), and O-methylcaryachine (5), along with a new pavine alkaloid, 6S,12S-neocaryachine-7-O-methyl ether N-metho salt (7). The structure of 7 was determined by spectroscopic data interpretation, while the absolute stereochemistry was determined by means of circular dichroism. From the results obtained from the radioligand-binding assay of the pure compounds, including the commercially available protopine (6), it was evident that the activity on the 5-HT(1A) receptor was at least partly due to the presence of the aporphine alkaloid 3, which showed the highest inhibition of [(3)H]8-hydroxy-2-(di-N-propylamino)tetralin ([(3)H]8-OH-DPAT) binding with an EC(50) value of 155 nM and a K(i) of 85 nM.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/16780969 

 

Behav Brain Res. 2006 Sep 25;172(2):240-9. Epub 2006 Jun 15.
Lemon oil vapor causes an anti-stress effect via modulating the 5-HT and DA activities in mice.
Abstract

We examined the anti-stress action of the essential oils of lavender, rose, and lemon using an elevated plus-maze task (EPM), a forced swimming task (FST), and an open field task (OFT) in mice. Lemon oil had the strongest anti-stress effect in all three behavioral tasks. We further investigated a regulatory mechanism of the lemon oil by pre-treatments with agonists or antagonists to benzodiazepine, 5-HT, DA, and adrenaline receptors by the EPM and the FST. The anti-stress effect of lemon oil was significantly blocked by pre-treatment with frumazenil, benzodiazepine receptor antagonist, or apomorphine, a nonselective DA receptor agonist. In contrast, agonists or antagonists to the 5-HT receptor and the alpha-2 adrenaline receptor did not affect the anti-stress effect of lemon oil. Buspirone, DOI, and mianserine blocked the antidepressant-like effect of lemon oil in the FST, but WAY100,635 did not. These findings suggest that the antidepressant-like effect of lemon oil is closely related with the 5-HTnergic pathway, especially via 5-HT(1A) receptor. Moreover, the lemon oil significantly accelerated the metabolic turnover of DA in the hippocampus and of 5-HT in the prefrontal cortex and striatum. These results suggest that lemon oil possesses anxiolytic, antidepressant-like effects via the suppression of DA activity related to enhanced 5-HTnergic neurons.

 



#24 eon

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 09:05 AM

That's interesting about lemon oil. I'm also into aromatherapy and use essential oils. Did you use the essential oil using a diffuser or did you ingest it internally? Some oils can be ingested internally or used for cooking. I may have tried some lemon oil before but it came in a "citrus blend" with orange, mandarin, and other citrus, I'd have to look what it was that I had.



#25 Flex

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 12:32 PM

anybody try MDAI as an empathogen? i'm interested in finding and trying it, not sure where to find it though right now.

 

Hadnt the same effects like MDMA, in fact it was as boring as a SSRI and made me anxious when taken with weed

 

It seems to me that for some reason the absence of 5-ht2b activation could be accounted for that, because 5-ht2b inhibition impairs the emphatogen effects of MDMA

So either Youre trying the leave extract of Aegle marmelos

http://www.longecity...al/#entry728687

 

or 6-APB

http://www.longecity...ne/#entry700141

 

but be aware of the longterm effects: arterial thickening, cardiac fibrosis and valvulopathy

http://www.longecity...is/#entry726364
 



#26 VerdeGo

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 04:39 AM

I inhaled straight from the bottle of pure lemon essential oil. I notice the study mentions "lemon oil vapor", so I'm guessing there was no ingestion in the case of the mice either. It completely took me by surprise that I had sustained effects from inhaling the aroma, whereas with lavender, I only get effects while I'm inhaling it. 



#27 eon

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 07:49 AM

Does inhaling it straight from the bottle mean a bottle lasts you forever whereas me using a diffuser it gets used therefore evaporates so the bottle gets finished and i'd have to buy more. Seems like a good idea to just inhale from the bottle, not sure it will ever finish. Considering I'd only be smelling it rather than letting it diffuse throughout the whole room. Diffusing is convenient though since I can run the diffuser for hours without holding a bottle up my nose to inhale. LOL. How long do you hold the bottle up your nose to inhale? Does it even matter as long as you had a good "huff" of it? Not sure what the general rule is if there is a minimum time one must smell the aromas.

 

I inhaled straight from the bottle of pure lemon essential oil. I notice the study mentions "lemon oil vapor", so I'm guessing there was no ingestion in the case of the mice either. It completely took me by surprise that I had sustained effects from inhaling the aroma, whereas with lavender, I only get effects while I'm inhaling it. 

 


Edited by eon, 04 June 2015 - 07:58 AM.


#28 VerdeGo

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 03:47 AM

From my understanding essential oils degrade over time, accelerated by the conditions in which they're stored. Light and heat will certainly deteriorate them, and they'll probably grow weaker over time. I heard of one reference stating a high quality essential oil can last up to a decade. 

 

Since I'm just starting out, I've tried four oils, and I really liked two of them: lavender and lemon. Oregano is very powerful, and I use that to clear up infections. I didn't like orange oil too much. The problem with inhaling from the bottle with something like lavender, is that it only affects you while you're smelling it. With lemon oil, I noticed clear and conscious effects for approximately 4.5 hours after inhaling, but YMMV. Same with the orange oil, though I didn't get much from inhaling oregano oil (Though I'm not sure, because I applied it to my feet a few minutes after inhaling it, so I didn't have a chance to measure how long the effects lasted from inhalation). I think it entirely depends on the plant and the molecules you're inhaling, and how they affect your particular brain. I've yet to find a chart detailing how long the effects of each oil generally lasts, though I'm still searching for one. 

 

For citrus oils, a few good whiffs is all I need to have sustained stimulating effects that set the tone for the entire day. I'd start early in the day inhaling citrus oils if you don't want to have disturbed sleep, but again, that's just me. I certainly wouldn't apply citrus oils topically in the evening, though, especially if you're one of the many that experience stimulation. The few relaxing oils I've encountered seem to work best topically, but as I stated before, I'm just getting into this field, and I've ordered some books on basic and advanced aromatherapy to hopefully be better able to answer your questions in the near future. I'm also going to start experimenting with patchouli, valerian, ylang ylang, lemon balm, clary sage, and many more. Do you have experience with other oils you can recommend?



#29 eon

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 08:44 AM

Actually from what I understand the older the oil the better it is, kinda like wine. The older it is the better. In other words it doesn't expire which is why your essential oil bottles do not have an expiration date. I have tried about 2 dozen essential oils. I like them all. One that stood out was Frankincense due to it being psychoactive. It gave me the most realistic dream/nightmares. Go to Ananda Apothecary and get more info. on each specific oils. They have a forum to ask questions as well. 

 

I've tried from your list: lemon balm (melissa), sage, oregano, lavender, ylang ylang (in a blend), etc. I have the first book on aromatherapy by Gattefosse.

 

From my understanding essential oils degrade over time, accelerated by the conditions in which they're stored. Light and heat will certainly deteriorate them, and they'll probably grow weaker over time. I heard of one reference stating a high quality essential oil can last up to a decade. 

 

Since I'm just starting out, I've tried four oils, and I really liked two of them: lavender and lemon. Oregano is very powerful, and I use that to clear up infections. I didn't like orange oil too much. The problem with inhaling from the bottle with something like lavender, is that it only affects you while you're smelling it. With lemon oil, I noticed clear and conscious effects for approximately 4.5 hours after inhaling, but YMMV. Same with the orange oil, though I didn't get much from inhaling oregano oil (Though I'm not sure, because I applied it to my feet a few minutes after inhaling it, so I didn't have a chance to measure how long the effects lasted from inhalation). I think it entirely depends on the plant and the molecules you're inhaling, and how they affect your particular brain. I've yet to find a chart detailing how long the effects of each oil generally lasts, though I'm still searching for one. 

 

For citrus oils, a few good whiffs is all I need to have sustained stimulating effects that set the tone for the entire day. I'd start early in the day inhaling citrus oils if you don't want to have disturbed sleep, but again, that's just me. I certainly wouldn't apply citrus oils topically in the evening, though, especially if you're one of the many that experience stimulation. The few relaxing oils I've encountered seem to work best topically, but as I stated before, I'm just getting into this field, and I've ordered some books on basic and advanced aromatherapy to hopefully be better able to answer your questions in the near future. I'm also going to start experimenting with patchouli, valerian, ylang ylang, lemon balm, clary sage, and many more. Do you have experience with other oils you can recommend?

 



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#30 nicklesprout

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 08:32 PM

and use Young Living, they have the best "pharmaceutical grade" essential oils. Jasmine has been show to be as effective as a benzo in reducing anxiety even.







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