14 replies to this topic

[metabrain]

Hey there,

 

I have pretty bad social interaction and I was wondering if there was an anti depressant that could also make me more sociable?

[axonopathy]

There are a couple causes I can think of that might impair your sociability. It goes without saying of course that any over-the-internet diagnosis should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Potential causes: 

-schizoaffective disorder/schizophreniform personality leaning (associated with introversion, difficulty with intimate relationships, rich interior life at the expense of focusing on external goals).

-depression (clearly affects one's inclination to be sociable)

-introverted personality (stable personality trait)

-social anxiety/rejection hypersensitivity 

-raised as an only child with little socializing while growing up

-CNS dopamine depletion/SNP-related overexpression of the dopamine transporter (DAT)/COMT polymorphism resulting in dopamine deplation, etc.

      -> for some, dopaminergic drugs will enhance sociability (e.g., amphetamine or methylphenidate), but psychostimulants come with serious risks

-atypical depression (characterized by lethargy, carbohydrate craving, hypersomnolence, and rejection sensitivity) 

 

Interestingly, irreversible MAOIs (e.g., phenelzine) have a strong track record for improving sociability. Visit the social anxiety forum and you'll find hundreds of posts touting the benefits of MAOIs in this context. 

[gamesguru]

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=678695

 

http://www.longecity...tional-anxiety/

[nowayout]

Exposure to social situations and practice, practice, practice.  Wine may help some people too, but keep it to a glass or two. 

[metabrain]

I can confirm that I do have depression, social anxiety/rejection hypersensitivity as well as Obstructive Sleep Apnea, I was also raised with very little socialising in my house.

 

Some days I can be quite social but 99% of the time I am not.

[nowayout]

Obviously treatable conditions like apnea should be treated first. So should depression if it is major.

But if you are thinking of using an antidepressant for sociability, you should think twice. About fifty percent of people are just introverted by nature and that is okay. Introversion is not a pathology. But introverted people can still learn social skills and attain some level of comfort in social situations. In fact many people you may think of as socially confident are introverts who have just learned to fake it. For this purpose, though, some venues are better than others. You may find you do much better in, say, a book club, chess club, a political or environmental avtivist group, or hiking club. If bars or dance clubs make you feel down, just avoid them for now - there is no rule saying you should only meet dates in bars (assuming you are talking about dating). If you do feel like a glad of wine takes the edge off in social situations, why not? Better than talking an antidepressant.

Rejection sensitivity is a universal of the human condition but is also something that improves with practice and desensitization.

Edited by nowayout, 19 May 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[metabrain]

I go from being socialble to being anti social with the same people, it is weird, I have been told before I am quiet or shy but to me it feels really wrong. The odd time I go out and I just engage with people easily but most of the time it just doesn't come naturally to me, for example I have made friends with someone and been described as fun and really engaging only to meet them again and I simply don't engage, a new friend asked me why I was acting so cold today.

 

it's weird and it is really setting me back in life because all I have ever wanted was a large group of friends.

[nowayout]

It is okay to make an excuse and not go out when you are not feeling in the mood.

Only a minority of really extroverted people really have what it takes to maintain a large group of friends. Maybe you could manage your expectations and concentrate on fewer but high quality friendships, people who wouldn't mind if you are having an off night, instead of considering taking medications to maintain a large social group (since there really aren't meds that work that way anyway).

Also, as i mentioned, clubs work really well to get to know a large number of people. These would be acquaintances, but maybe a couple would become friends. In any case, most of the people who seem to have many friends don't really- they have many acquaintances, which is different.

Edited by nowayout, 19 May 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[metabrain]

Oh I do go out when I am feeling down but I have lost many friends because of how unsociable I get. There are times where I am activly engaging people and making friends and I think back to these times and think wow I was really outgoing on that day and I made a friend only to lose them later on because I am cold and unsociable.

[Flex]

I would try a psychologic approach but also something like practice

 

Theres maybe something that might help but I havent tried it: lysine, prefferably with arginine and ornithine. (this combo is widely available)

the first one blocks the 5-ht4 receptor and the other act anxiolytic via a different mechanism.

 

So, if it works, You might be able to "train" easier

 

Fire in the HPA axis

http://www.longecity...is/#entry726364

 

Introversion/Social Anxiety - not just Serotonin and Dopamine: also GABA

http://www.longecity...ba/#entry645209

..I recently significantly reduced my daily lysine dose and this coincided with increase in episodes of apathy, social withdrawal, irritability, and nonmigraine headaches. I went from about 1g of lysine a day to about 200-300mg...

 

Try to stay away from SNRI/SSRI because of possible PSSD = perresistent impotence and asexuallity

 

Edit: What do You think what the reason might be ?

Is there a correlation with alcohol or paradoxically via a hangover, differences in summer/winter, increase/decrease due to a lack of sleep ?

Edited by Flex, 19 May 2015 - 11:58 PM.

[pinnacle]

Things that have worked for me in my lifelong quest to abolish anxiety and be the most outgoing, calm and confident version of myself (in no specific order):

Mirtazapine
Buspirone

Gabapentin (although best cycled, doses kept minimal and used only when really necessary)
Tianeptine
Uridine/Fish Oil (absolutely no choline!)
Very small doses of Noopept

Theanine (up to a gram a day)

-Cutting out caffeine except for occasional tea-

Rhodiola

Ashwagandha

Silexan (it is very mild, but seems to be working over time)
Magnolia Bark Extract (at night)

Skullcap Extract (Baicalin) (at night)

Magnesium (Glycinate)
Magnesium baths (epsom mineral salts ~ 1 or 2 cups dissolved)
B Vitamins (I've always aimed towards higher amounts of p-5-p, methyl-folate + methyl-b12)

Zinc (Picolinate) (I was tested low two separate occasions, two years apart, and ever since have supplemented up to 30mg/day with great benefits)

Bromantane (albeit mild)

Zembrin (although sometimes can have the opposite effect and become irritable, thus have abandoned this one but might work for others)

Red Wine

EXERCISE! (This often gets underrated and I when I find myself wondering why I've slipped off my game, I realise it's most likely since I've stopped exercising regularly)

...others which elude me right now but I'll update if I think of anything else 

 

I do respond quite well to low doses, seldom use of amphetamines and the like (ritalin, etc) for social situations, but the consequences down the line aren't worth trying to pursue this as a means of practical use.

 

----------------------
Still curious to try:

Selank

N-Acetyl-Selank

N-Acetyl-Tyrosine

Low-dose Naltrexone

Baclofen

Edited by pinnacle, 20 May 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[Flex]

Exercise can increase Serotonine levels and caffeine can decrease Serotonine levels.

 

Caffeine inhibits exercise-induced increase in tryptophan hydroxylase expression in dorsal and median raphe of Sprague-Dawley rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11445277

 

Really dont want to suggest something (I´m no Doc) or give the idea to do extensively experiments, but it could be a lucky shot.

Dunno.. have You tried low dose of 5-htp or something ?

Edited by Flex, 20 May 2015 - 12:07 AM.

[metabrain]

I have tried many supplements over the past two years, I was super social on Piracetam but I also had impaired judgement and at times couldn't stop writing or shut up talking but it helped me to see the person I could be.

I am hoping to try a pharmacutacal approach first and then maybe alter my diet to include more vitamins and minerals. I already exercise extensivly, it helps elevate my mood and helps a tiny bit with sociability. I need a lot of help with my sociability as I cannot get forward in life.

 

I have been assesed my psychologists and my sociability and lack of expression was so blunt that they initially thought I had aspergers however this was ruled out because they have seen me become highly sociable, I pick up on body language better than most people and I have a lot of empathy sometimes too much.

[Flex]

Youre describing me to some extend, though its caused or accelarated because of Cannabis abus in the adolescence.

I can also be extroverted and even hypomanic but mostly dull and reserved like a redneck from the movies..

 

If Youre "suffering" from the same cause as I, here are my experiences and thoughts:

 

Gastrodia elata/ tian ma extract helps me but this is only the day after, neuravena/green oat extract has helped me and glutamine matrix mixtures like

Glutanator which contains Glutamine matrix (L-glutamine, N-acetyl-L-Glutamine, Glutamine-AKG, Glutamine ethyl ester,L-alanyl-L-glutamine)

http://www.biotechus...glutanator/czdl

 

but sigh.. its nothing that modulates it.. I´ve tried even coke out of desperation.. also nothing sustainable.. Now I have one more problem to reverse.

http://www.longecity...eversal-thread/

 

I believe to have a 5-htt short allele which increases serotonine and leads to those dysfunctions but also prosocial/emotional ( i.e. anti-sociopath), beeing dumb and intelligent, motivation problems, muteness, hypomania

anxious (but differ from others) insomnia & etc.

My friends also smoked pot like me (adolescence) but didnt become mute, rather just a bit dumb whereas I´ve became dumb and smart.

 

I cant prove it but (in most cases) substances that increase serotonine made me anxious and didnt changed my muteness.

When increasing Dopamine with supplements, I´m cognitively impaired.

 

A relative of me cant even cry and I´m not able to fall in love. Strong feelings Yes, but not in love and this for 17 Years. I was only before cannabis able.

 

Heres the herbal alternative to Tianeptine:

evodiamine

Berberine and evodiamine influence serotonin transporter (5-HTT) expression via the 5-HTT-linked polymorphic region.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21647174

 

Tianeptine looses ist SSRE effect after a time whereas evodiamine afaik doesnt.

But the effects were for me rather medicore and a bit anxiogenic, actually tianeptine affects me.

 

Edit: Low dose of Clomipramine had some good effects on my affect IIRC it was either ~17mg or 37mg. Everything above caused the opposite.

I had the assumption that 5-ht6 inhibition could be responsible for some effects of Clomi.

 

Oh and even if  this above doesnt describes You, look into the 5ht2b receptor activation.

Its unfortunaetly also just temporary but might be very interresting.

The only herb that I´ve found to activate it, was Aegle marmelos but I´m out of money so I havent tried it.

 

Interaction of aqueous leaf extract of Aegle marmelos (L.) Corr. with cholinergic, serotonergic and adrenergic receptors: An ex vivo study

Further, it has been proposed, that the stimulation of 5-HT2B receptor produces anxiolysis.[13] The agonistic action of AM on serotonin receptor as demonstrated by this study may explain the basis for reported use of AM in anxiety and depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4375803/

 

5-ht2b is not only anxiolytic but more, it actvates the VTA and Raphe and releases dopamine and serotonine !

The significance is mirrored by this:

Serotonin 5-HT2B receptors are required for 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine-induced hyperlocomotion and 5-HT release in vivo and in vitro.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18337424

 

Activation of 5-HT2B Receptors in the Medial Amygdala causes Anxiolysis in the Social Interaction Test in the Rat

http://www.sciencedi...028390897000427

 

but it also thickens the arteries ! and can cause cardiac arrest and hypertension after longterm activation:

Fire in the HPA axis

http://www.longecity...is/#entry726364

 

Edited by Flex, 20 May 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[metabrain]

I have done cannabis only twice in my life so I don't think it's that. I want to try prescription medications if possible because in my country with a medical card prescription medication is free, also pharmaceuticals are more powerful and usually activate the receptors for longer periods of time.