14 replies to this topic

[AlexCanada]

 

Here are some cliff notes I made yesterday regarding parnate as I have been on it for little over a week.

 

Parnate: Initially slightly sedating yet stimulating at same time. Stimulant effect is profound and even agitating, lasts well into the night often times. Insomnia common. Many report motivation and good mood, some report aggression. Motivation, and greater willingness to participate in life are obvious personal effects. Good mood I have not been able to experience. More optimism about my general health but negative agitated sensations are extremely troublesome. Physical and mental anxiety are significant. Pre-existing inflammation and poor peripherial circulation may be preventing Parnate from working more effectively. Feel more wired. Pro-social in some regards. Less social hesitation. Very restless, anxiety becomes very uncomfortable along with palpitations and increase in blood pressure (105, 62, 62 raises to 124, 71, 75  and 120, 74, 89).  BP increase said to be very common side effect.

 

 

I been on 5-8mg (depending on the day) for slightly over a week.   There feels like there is such potential in this medication but omgg sometimes I end up feeling so burned out on it. Many days I managed only 4 hours of sleep due to immense insomnia. There is such a greater sense of productivity but yet if I stay still for too long I start to feel quite cognitively slowed down in the evening. I am dealing with inflammation + poor circulation though so I'm sure it's playing a role. And my adrenals been pretty burned out lately as is. Lot of horrible symptoms including pain all over my back and neck, abdominal pains, and even small adrenaline attacks when attempting to rest (usually in evening). Makes me wonder if Parnate's initial stimulating nature is too much for my body to handle at the moment or if just the right add-on treatment is required.  Because I have really been able to feel some restoration of more normal-like activity. Too bad I sometimes end up feeling dysphoric (might be unrelated to parn) along with the strong physical anxiety, agitation, and even some aggression. Mood is def more Hyper than Hypo.                 Interesting side effect btw:  Significantly less concern over spending my money when it comes to my health.

 

Lithium is claimed to be contradicted but would low doses be okay?

 

What else can I take to reduce the anxiety and constant on edge feelings? And what might generally be considered good add-ons for MAOIs or the more stimulating type SSRIs? I'm certainly open to mood stablizer class of meds.    It's nice to be doing more with my time but the side effects can be frightening.   I had a much better experience with parnate 3+ years ago but eventually it pooped out.  Now I feel more of the negatives and less of the positives.   I would take higher doses but I am less able to tolerate it these days. My general health is worse now than those years prior. Especially my T levels and low cortisol. 

 

I get to start Cortef next month so there's that.             

 

Edited by AlexCanada, 12 June 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

MAOIs increase, serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine, among other neurotransmitters. It's probably the increase in NE that is keeping you up. Taking clonidine or tenex at night, which reduces the release of NE, before bed, will probably fix this completely.

[AlexCanada]

Was able to sleep better today by skipping parnate the day before and it turned today into a duller affair overall. Felt more difficult to access my thoughts and more difficult to engage with things in general but anxiety was significantly reduced.

 

Was not too bad until afternoon which turned dreadfully dull and considered sleeping through it. May have been related to blood sugar or afternoon cortisol dip. Though I am suspecting Pantothene 25mg sublingual contributed. Such fatigue.      I took 3mg Parnate, sure why not. Also took some MSM + taurine + Vit C.  An hour and a half later I started to feel some of that agitation, and anxiety building up. A tightness in my chest. Also started to feel some minor desire for a video game I never got around to years ago. But not the necessary ability to really appreciate it yet.  Anxiety overall is persistent 5 hours later and fairly constant. Sometimes abates for 5 minutes here and there but usually consistent. Feels very much like a physical anxiety. If something counteracted this the Parnate may be promising. About 10 days with 1 day off. I really am finding it extremely difficult to deal with the harsh severity of the anx though. 

 

I may have to quit it but I may try adding some herbs today and see if something eases this. Maybe I need some vasodilation. 

 

And yes, the insomnia is much much more due to Parnate than Valium withdrawal as I had one of my better rests when I skipped parn.    Wish i had access to Clonidine or tenex but I can maybe get them next month. 

[OneScrewLoose]

I don't think is the much in the way of OTC products that will lower NE. Why do you have to wait a month?

[AlexCanada]

I don't think is the much in the way of OTC products that will lower NE. Why do you have to wait a month?

 

I see my doctor in early July but I may place an online order soon.   Any other sleep aid options? Clonidine is said to lower BP and mine is often low already. Does the sedating effect last long into the next day or just enough for sleep?

 

 

 

I been up to 15mg parnate lately and sleep been becoming much more difficult. Not sure I can handle this as it stands.  Plus it's not doing enough for mood unfortunately.   Motivation is pretty poor without pantothene but it makes me dysphoric and ranks up my anxiety so I been trying to go without it. Very unproductive aside from little simple things. 

[OneScrewLoose]

What's your BP?
 

[Major Legend]

propranolol or olive leaf extract reduces NE, though NE is probably the reason you feel motivated, unfortunately anxiety and wanting to move are two sides of the same coin...

[AlexCanada]

Physical and mental anxiety* where more severely caused by Pantothene I was taking at the time. I still get it but it's less severe and some of it is due to val withdrawal + poor adrenal function. It's this tightness in my chest along with some sense of dread. The very wired feeling was panto related as well.

 

Without panto the Parnate feels more subtle but few obvious benefits. Insomnia is very dreadful though and difficult to overcome. I was ironically feeling better on 10mg parnate than the 15 mg I been taking past few days. There is an initial anti-anx and serene feeling for at least few hours after dosing 10mg,  then adding 2mg 3 hours later would provide some more rapidly as well, this led me to taking tiny bit more. But uncomfortable anx manifests later and is on and off depending on time of day but never consistent. 

 

The parnate benefit I find lately is increased willingness to engage in a few old hobbies but general interest is still quite poor unfortunately. Still very difficult to engage in anything new and there is still notable stress/anxiety response and increased heart rate and cognitive block which manifests if I attempt to do so. Still very anhedonic (benzo withdrawal related surely). And usually a lot of difficultly feeling pleasure but yet small windows seem evident. I find that I am engaging more in habit forming activity, a few games for instance which can feel slightly addictive but only those with a personal touch which allow me to build towards something. Perhaps related to increased dopamine?  I find myself still getting worn out unfortunately. It's as if pressing the keys for more than 30 minutes really starts to get me down towards a slow decline in functioning.   *Note that I am also taking NAC 100mg most days + been taking 1mg+ of LGD 4033 (SARM) for a week or more. 

 

BP past weeks was around 102, 62, 58. With pulse often dropping to the low 50's where I would feel really out of it and less ''in-tune'' with the world. Parnate has since raised it along with other factors possibly and I find it around 115, 62, 65+ but pulse still drops below 60 at various times. I haven't checked nearly as often.

 

 

 Atomoxetine a week ago gave me no worsening of anxiety and even made me feel calmer but I'm sure it behaves very differently from Parnate.  Still might be norepinephrine related but likely other factors in play as well. 

 

 

General productivity has been not good but at least I been able to bury my head slightly in non-stressful activities such as a few videogames as I work on recovering further. Motivation is enough to the point where I am taking better care of myself and more eager to do so. This includes my willingness to exercise even if I feel immensely sluggish on and off from time to time. Afternoon sluggishness/CFS is immensely problematic still. Really makes it difficult to function even with Parnate. This I am finding difficult to get around.

 

The biggest motivation and productivity boost unfortunately was not from the parnate a week ago but from Pantothene 25mg sublingual. My cognitive functioning was significantly improved as well. Ability to process information at a much more normal pace, form more intelligent thoughts, and even be able to speak to people in a somewhat intelligent manner. Without pantothene I feel more in a stupor state much of the time and find my mind goes blank at the concept of communicating with a doctor and so forth. I feel incredibly incompetent and inconsistent in comparison now without it.  It also made me feel wired a bit but I was most productive towards many facets of my life. Unfortunately pantothene made me feel very dysphoric and worsened my anxiety. It made parnate seem like it was giving me anxiety after various doses but looking back Panto itself was the biggest cause but a direct reaction is possible. The dysphoria was the biggest issue though. I felt such an unhappy sense of dread :(.  But that higher level of functioning was incredible. I felt like I could actually speak to my doctors properly or at least much closer towards something resembling normal. I just wish I knew the mechanisms behind these actions. I know it has effects on adrenals +hormones + acetylcholine+ Vit A and a whole host of other things. The dysphoria reminded me a bit of how I felt when I had a bad reaction to Accutane over a decade ago. Very miserable!  Maybe I need to inhibit Vitamin A?

 

 

Some libido I have been able to regain here and there but that is more likely due to the LGD, and even more likely the NAC I suspect actually. 

 

I really wish I could think more clearly. Processing information the majority of the time is difficult to do naturally. Parnate doesn't seem to help much in that regard. While playing my games I function at a very slow pace and sometimes I just down right give up because I really cannot handle it. But at least I been willing to try. This may have been impossible a month ago. Reminds me of when I would go to the grocery store and carrying a few things tired me out so immensely that I could no longer read the labels properly. 

 

If anyone has advice on how to improve my information processing I would be very grateful. And how to prevent myself from feeling so worn out. 

Edited by AlexCanada, 23 June 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[AlexCanada]

Intense hypotension been on-going even with copper out of the picture. I really can't seem to handle the Parnate this time around. 3+ years ago I managed 30mg+ but I suppose my body is just less capable now. I still had hypotension back then and fell down a few times + hit my head a few times but recently it's been intense on 15mg.

 

Few days ago from my journal:  114, 64, 76 while sitting down,           then hours after my afternoon Parnate doses I would feel very off while standing and general sense of unwellness.  90, 60,  126    dizzy and sick esp while standing.  This would keep coinciding with a timeframe of about 4+ hours after Parnate doses.

 

So I cut down to 7.5mg past few days. I notice less anxiety btw! But bit less desire to do things. Already lot of problems with motivation but Parn just hasn't been doing enough anyway I guess. Lot of the benefits of 3 years ago seem absent. I did end up quitting due to lack of effect back then when it pooped out. Insomnia been severe but bit less on lower dose now. Managed 4-5 hours today (but 10+ hours spent in bed). 

 

Very slow minded but that changed when I took some magnesium oral solution yesterday morning! Good lord did my ability to process info improve substantially. I also felt more expressive and animated and without the strong physical anxiety associated with Magnesium oxide/citrate/glycinate forms but did notice some clear negativity hours later.   This liquid form of magnesium (+ chloride + 72 trace minerals) might be something really worth while. I took it to see if it would help me sleep yesterday but very opposite effect. My mind was more hyper than hypo. I found a pro-social boost and found myself communicating with people I had avoided social contact with for weeks. I was able to express myself more clearly and thoughts would feel more natural rather than being under a dense fog.  I will try more again today when I wake up! I took bit gabapentin for sleep now + 1/3 of a beer and maybe I can do something later today if I feel okay enough. Hydrocort 2.5mg is also a new factor I introduced but don't think it's been having nearly as much effect as the Magnesium in terms of obvious changes.

Edited by AlexCanada, 28 June 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Paradoxically, MAOIs in many cases can lower norepinephrine levels, even significantly. This is likely what is causing the hypotension and the slowness. I hesitate to mention this, because it would have to be done carefully, but there is a supplement called Yohimbine that antagonizes alpha-2 receptors, thereby increasing norepinephrine. I'm warning you, if you are not careful with this, you could end up in a hypertensive crisis.

 

As for sleep, I didn't know you are going through benzo withdrawal. In that case, I would take a z-drug like Ambien or Sonata. They work on the same site as benzos, but not as strongly. This will help you sleep and help your withdrawal. 

[AlexCanada]

It feels unfortunate but I may have to quit parnate due to potential jaundice/liver issues. My skin has been becoming more yellow/orange than usual. Especially a subtle orange tint on my face. rest of my body is fine but my face looks even more unhealthy. I keep having a really ill feeling a few hours after parnate dosing.  I went from 15mg 3 days ago to 7.5mg last few days and yesterday just 4mg.    Today been feeling particularly unmotivated, slow brained and low interest so I took 4.5mg. Some improvement in mood after an hour initially but at 1.5 hour mark starting to feel ill and sick.   Guess I may not be able to tolerate this medication.

 

Unless NAC 100mg has bad reaction with it?  It has helped me feel less negative side effects from valium such as the anxiety rebound as well as helping me feel less hungover but leaves me a bit spacy at times. 

 

Bleh. Hydrocortisone 2.5mg has also been a new factor but I will give that a pause for now. Parnate issues were occuring long before hydrocort. 

 

It's unfortunate. I was starting to feel like I was having some small breakthrough 2 days ago! I was even considering getting back together with old friends from several years ago. I was feeling much more cognitively capable and mood felt more hyper than hypo. Whatever. It was promising for that one day while it lasted. Magnesium not having the ideal response anymore either. Yesterday felt like a whole lot of nothing from 6-7 drops. And today after 2 drops I feel angry/irritable initially. BS fluctuation? Dopamine antogonism? Whatever it is I don't like it. At least I feel bit more energy though but still feel sick from parnate. Need to lay down. 

Edited by AlexCanada, 29 June 2015 - 01:55 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Why not try Nardil then? They are very similar medications.

[focus83]

I have the very same issue. I currently take 20mg Parnate and its giving me noticably more anxiety, restlessness, compulsiveness as well as an overall panicky feeling. So far I had success with 150mg Pregablin alongside Parnate. That took the edge off a lot, although not completely. 25mg Baclofen have also been very helpful. Both medications have allowed me to get proper sleep while on Parante. Without them, I would have bad terrible insomina.

Other than that, you might want to ask your pdoc about adding a neuroleptic.

Edited by focus83, 29 June 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[AlexCanada]

I have the very same issue. I currently take 20mg Parnate and its giving me noticably more anxiety, restlessness, compulsiveness as well as an overall panicky feeling. So far I had success with 150mg Pregablin alongside Parnate. That took the edge off a lot, although not completely. 25mg Baclofen have also been very helpful. Both medications have allowed me to get proper sleep while on Parante. Without them, I would have bad terrible insomina.

Other than that, you might want to ask your pdoc about adding a neuroleptic.

 

Are you still taking the Parnate?

 

I have stopped since then and been on low doses of Cymbalta + various supplements.     Zinc + Cymbalta + modafinil (motivating) + my usual low dose valium + very low doses of a testosterone booster gave me a month of summer that I was able to engage with old friends who i have not seen in a long time and I was able to complete in some card game tournaments.  Was extremely promising! But I felt much in a stupor a lot of the time especially with the zinc dopamine antagonism. Provides better mood and notably healthier face and appearance due to testosterone boost but boy did I feel dumb lot of the time.  Eventually it started giving me a lot of finger pains due to low copper likely. 

 

I am not on the T stuff or zinc anymore but plan to try zinc again likely in few weeks. The next day after any zinc dose is so damn foggy. I been trying to find alternatives.

 

Currently not doing well at all and look extremely unhealthy w super low T and estrogen and likely low cortisol still and all that. 

 

Been trying NSI-189 with not much progress yet. Some anti-anhedonic subtle effects from Omega 3 EPA at times. Other sups I been taking are Korean Ginseng, Bromelian, Royal Jelly (hormones), Sea Iodine, Copper low dose, Brewers Yeast sometimes, CDP choline sometimes, MetaFolin (folate), and few others.  I am noticing less apathy than a month ago. Might be attributed to the NSI-189 but I still feel very lifeless overall and really need to get my life back on track.

 

I been dreading it but maybe I need to try T-gel (andro-gel) again. I'll try low doses of LDG-4033 (SARM testosterone) in the mean time and see how it goes.   It's not surprising I cannot function well when my Testosterone levels are through the floor. Along with low cortisol my energy is so tragically poor. I cannot even do grocery shopping on a basic level without falling apart.  Having an SSRI in the picture again may work wonders. I need that cortisol boost they provide + all the HPA axis regulation.  NSI-189 seems to target a lot of non-serotonin factors.  I need some serotonin in here.

[AlexCanada]

Why not try Nardil then? They are very similar medications.

 

Tried Nardil before,  didn't work well for me.  Don't remember what it did but I know I had some very bad reactions.