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Verdict on Lions Mane?

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#61 medievil

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 02:51 AM

Jeezes this thread is anoying to read with all this advertising crap and ppl going on about ppl having a agenda and other shit, cant we start a new thread and keep it full of info as i feel the crap on here is gonna continue.


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#62 LongLife

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 05:57 AM

I am uncertain if PLAYGROUND in post #58 is referring to me or to whom, as there is no name indicated who is being addressed. In the event the remark is addressed to me then there is a misrepresentation. Also to clarify my posts, I am in the same boat as BUSYBOY in post #1. I am an end user and I am interested in NGF, as well as Telomeres and other matters in the quest to delay aging, Alzheimer's disease, improve brain function and memory and to live a LongLife. I am not a promoter of products. I do not sell any substances. I do treat people though with cognitive malfunction here in Peru. I apologize that may last post appeared to be an advertisement for a company. 

 

FYI, starting at post #14 (Ariel) in this thread, the question was asked, the same that was in my mind and I would have asked myself if several people had not asked along the threads' development; what product, which provider is a good source? I believe that is normal and typical reasonable question to ask considering that we may all be interested in what other peoples experiences have been and which product they used.  I found that VLAD and MUSHROOM had valid concerns and investigated further. I published my posts to clarify some data points and attempt to inform on a subject I have a small amount of hands-on experience from 40 years ago; growing mushrooms for my personal use, as a short lived and expensive hobby.

 

The data provided was merely a verification of what had been posted by other members. Some of the information did not appear to be correct, so I read all the links provided and indeed find some error, some omission and brought these to light. I also followed my gut and a pet peave (?sp?) I have when people address a question concerning a product, like why don't they just ask the provider or manufacturer? So following up on what had been posted concerning that particular company (not naming the company here) and their product and their purported new product to soon be released, I inquired and posted the reply I received. I really do not see the harm here or the offense BUT I apologize to everyone if this is incorrect...to verify information relevant to the subject matter, which appears to me that this thread is about LION'S MANE and peoples experiences with it and what is a reliable and good source. I understand that some shill can attempt to hijack a thread and push their product and PLAYGROUND and other certainly have a right and a place to call out what they believe to be shills. Also, if a person is not one of those shills and is believed by someone to be a shill, then that situation needs to be addressed also.

 

I regret that some persons MAY believe that I am  providing tainted information or attempting to sell a product on this forum. That is NOT the case. So far, I have found most of what MUSHROOM and VLAD have had to say is correct concerning cellulose (rice, grains, seeds, wood chips, etc) medium for mycelium growth. It is a valid concern. particularly if a company is measuring total sugars instead of the specific sugars that provide the benefits sought and being PAID for, correct? In that respect it is underhanded to do this because few people would spot that trick and be misled. Although WE ALL are seeking RESULTS and after spending hard earned money, to find a product produces no results because of misrepresentation, that is valuable information that should be shared with like minded people such as those on this forum...in my opinion of course.

 

I personally do not care who produces the best product, I want results. Although I would prefer a company from the USA or Europe and NOT China, due to the uncontrolled contamination of excessive toxic heavy metals in China's environment. That being said, the company that I contacted through that particular online market and posted their answers to my inquiries may very well be getting their new mycelium product from China. But I have not asked that question of them yet. If they are getting their mycelium from China then I will not purchase their product without an ICP analysis of a heavy metal panel. This analysis should not cost a company any more than $200 tops. It is a very typical work performed by all of the companies who are product certifiers. We have offices of two of the five internationally recognized companies in Lima.

 

I trust this post has clarified any cause for speculation. Cheers. 


Edited by LongLife, 29 February 2016 - 06:01 AM.

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#63 Vlad

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 11:19 AM

For the record:

 

- I have no connection of whatever nature with any company, except as a customer.

- I am not advertising anything here, I am just giving information. When someone asks me which brand I recommend (Busyboy #34) I give my recommendation. I also give the background of my recommendation, because an opinion is just that (an opinion), meaning not objective. By giving the background of my opinion people can decide for themselves if it makes sense or not.

- I have only one account. I am not LongLife and I am not Real Mushrooms or anybody else.

 

I assumed people are on this forum to share and expand their knowledge?


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#64 Real Mushrooms

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 09:43 PM

We're all here to understand the science about Lions Mane. The problem is that it doesn't translate over into retail products. This is where mentioning brands comes in because there is a wide spectrum of quality in products and you can easily be fooled about the contents of the product. Though many products claim to be mushroom, many aren't.

 

Main points to remember with lions mane and mushroom products in general:

  • For lions mane, hericinones are in the fruiting body and erinacines are in the mycelium and both have shown NGF stimulation
  • We have not seen a pure mycelium lions mane retail product (pm if you've found one)
  • pure mycelium is made through liquid fermentation which is typically made in China (ex. Cordyceps Cs-4)
  • mycelium on grain is the common growing method used for products made in the USA. See my previous posts about it being laden with grain in the final product which lowers the amount of active compounds (beta-glucans, triterpenes, erinacines, cordycepin, etc.). This is has been tested and verified and you can even do your own starch tests at home to prove this. There is almost no scientific research on these products. If you look into the research you will see that they primarily use fruiting body extracts or pure mycelium cultures. 
  • almost all pure mycelium products and pure mushroom products come from China. This is the truth. It is not economically feasible to do this in North America which is why mycelium on grain is used. There is environmental concerns with this so do your due diligence.
  • Polysaccharide % include starch (ex. grain) so ignore those #'s as they are easily misrepresented. Look specifically for beta-glucan %.

 

DISCLOSURE: If you have not looked at our profile, we do sell retail mushroom products made from 100% organic fruiting body extracts from China. They are screened for heavy metals and pesticides in China and again when they arrive in the US. We do analytical testing of our products to show you exactly what is in them (most do not). We are first and foremost here to educate the public about medicinal mushrooms and how to properly qualify products. If you look at our posts, you will see that see do not advertise our products. If you want to buy them, awesome, if not, please be aware of exactly what you are purchasing. 


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#65 LongLife

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 02:19 AM

For anyone interested, GOOGLE "lion's mane mycelium culture" for some insight on what this stuff looks like. A couple of photographs are included here from Google.

 

It appears that there IS a standardized extract available. I found it searching for AMYLOBAN3399, pursuant the the articles below. Not too expensive either, it looks like this is what I will try first while waiting for the cellulose free mycelium to become available in a 50/50 mix with fruiting body extract. I hope this will be helpful information.

 

Amyloban

An additional fat-soluble fraction isolated from Lion’s Mane, called amyloban, was found to protect against neuronal cell death caused by toxic beta amyloid peptide.[3] Beta amyloid peptide is the main component of plaque that develops in the brains of Alzheimer’s disease patients, causing destruction of neurons as it progresses. It is believed that amyloid deposition also increases the risk of cerebral hemorrhagic stroke by causing blood vessels to become brittle and eventually break. Because amyloban and hericenones are fat-soluble, they are not contained in products extracted with hot water only. Concentration of active compounds requires a two-step process utilizing both ethanol (alcohol) and hot water.

 

[3]. Nagai, K. et al “Dilinoleoyl-phosphatidylethanolamine from Hericium erinaceum protects against ER stress-induced Neuro2a cell death via protein kinase C pathway.” Jrnl Nutr Biochem, 17 (2006) 525-530.

 

Amyloban®3399-a product made of amycenone, a standardized extract of H. erinaceum containing hericenones and amyloban is currently being tested for safety as a health food supplement. It has been reported that Amyloban®3399 raises level of mental alertness, encourages positive behaviors, improves mood and attentiveness to one’s surroundings, and thus, should increase learning and motivation, while promoting voluntary interactions with others. Carlsson et al. showed that one of the major problems of schizophrenia was the poor response of cognitive symptoms to available treatments, even when the positive symptoms showed improvements. It has been repeatedly observed in clinical trials that positive symptoms may be reduced over a 4-12 week period, but it can take months to see improvements in cognitive symptoms. Based on these observations, it is hypothesized that Amyloban®3399 may be beneficial for treating primary cognitive deficits and negative symptoms of schizophrenia.

SEE: http://bioupdate.org...-inanaga-et-al/ - THIS SITE CONTAINS a number of research articles on lion's mane.

 

Attached Files


Edited by LongLife, 01 March 2016 - 02:29 AM.

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#66 normalizing

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 09:09 AM

realmushrooms, i already did your test for starch with fungi perfecti brand and it did not show signs of starch. i already posted this in another thread in which you linked to how to test for starch in mushrooms. i did it exactly as shown and no sign. yet, it seems to me fungi perfecti is indeed grown on starch and it confuses me as to why the test did not work. if you wish to try it, then thats fine. but something is not right here i think...

 

longlife, i already took amyloban extracts for extended periods of time and they werent cheap and they were scam. absolutely no effect from prolonged high doses (no negative nor positive) versus general starchy popular supplements i tried before which actually had some minor effect. so i can conclude amyloban is suspicious and its not useful or recommended by me.


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#67 Vlad

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 01:33 PM

Longlife, Amyloban is made from Lion's Mane fruiting body, not the mycelium, according to the manufacturer.

 

"Ingredients - Lion's Mane (Hericium erinaceus) Fruiting Body Extract, Amycenone®, Standardized to contain amyloban including hericenones "

 

They claim on their website it contains 0.5% herinacenones. How they determine this they won't say (I sent them a message), which makes me suspicious because there is no reference material available to test it against using e.g. HPLC. On the other hand, it's also not possible to prove it is NOT in there - again, because there is no reference material.

 

Personally, I think it is just a smart marketing concept and not much more. No hard facts at all, just talk. No independent research available at all.

 

NB - The company also received a warning from the FDA. The FDA findings confirm IMO that insisting on 3rd party testing is very much justified.

 

I quote from the FDA report:

 

"Your firm did not verify that a subset of the finished batches of dietary supplements, identified through a sound statistical sampling plan, or every finished batch, meets product specifications for identity, purity, strength, and composition,[...]"

 

and

 

"Although your firm sent out samples of these finished product lots to outside laboratories for testing, the laboratories only tested for heavy metals (mercury, lead, arsenic, and cadmium) and food chemistry (ash, total calories, total carbohydrates, fat, moisture, and protein); instead of conducting assay tests to determine that the components were consistent with your firm’s established specifications.  Heavy metals and food chemistry are not included in your finished product specifications."

 

and

 

"Your firm did not conduct at least one appropriate test or examination to verify the identity of a component that is a dietary ingredient, prior to its use, as required by 21 CFR 111.75(a)(1)(i)."

 

and

 

"your firm relied on Certificates of Analysis (COA) from your suppliers. A COA from a supplier may not be used to verify the identity of any component that is a dietary ingredient [see 21 CFR 111.75(a)]."

 

 



#68 Real Mushrooms

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 05:47 PM

realmushrooms, i already did your test for starch with fungi perfecti brand and it did not show signs of starch. i already posted this in another thread in which you linked to how to test for starch in mushrooms. i did it exactly as shown and no sign. yet, it seems to me fungi perfecti is indeed grown on starch and it confuses me as to why the test did not work. if you wish to try it, then thats fine. but something is not right here i think...

 

I remember that. That was strange. All the iodine tests I've done with mycelium on grain products have turned purple/black. 


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#69 normalizing

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 08:59 PM

i was reading about mycoremediation https://en.wikipedia...Mycoremediation and it seems all the medicinal mushrooms are hyperaccumilators of all types of heavy metals and toxins in the environment so it seems to me as much as you test for toxins and heavy metals in the mushrooms sold, they naturally always must contain some as thats how they work in nature.

for example "Wood-decay fungi are particularly effective in breaking down aromatic pollutants (toxic components of petroleum), as well as chlorinated compounds (certain persistent pesticides)" that are basically the most popular medicinal mushrooms out there and their primary goal in nature is exactly to break down such tough resistent toxins. it makes you question the whole idea of using such mushrooms as medicine at all considering their basic function in nature is, and its not something you want to have in your body.



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#70 pamojja

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 09:15 PM

i was reading about mycoremediation https://en.wikipedia...Mycoremediation and it seems all the medicinal mushrooms are hyperaccumilators of all types of heavy metals and toxins in the environment ..

 

I read that wikipedia article differently:

 

 

After four weeks, more than 95% of many of the PAH (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) had been reduced to non-toxic components in the mycelial-inoculated plots.

 

Biodegradation is different from hyper-accumulation.



#71 normalizing

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 09:23 PM

well in this specific article it just says this "Some fungi are hyperaccumulators, capable of absorbing and concentrating heavy metals in the mushroom fruit bodies" but if you check info separately on all edible fungi, they all accumulate heavy metals to some extent and its concentrated within them until consumption so they do not really detoxify it.

and this biodegredation method is said to render toxins into non-toxic compounds in the fungi BUT does this mean there arent any toxic traces left and accumulated within the fungi when consumed? hardly confident there isnt. for instance, would you consume anything that is a "filter" in nature? a lot of plants do this and shellfish. and yes, they do detoxify the toxins and heavy metals,but there is left overs within them always regardless.


Edited by normalizing, 01 March 2016 - 09:27 PM.


#72 Vlad

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 10:22 PM

Exactly that's why you should always ask for COA's (preferably of an independent 3rd party) and not go out and harvest your own mushrooms, or buy raw dried ones or unprocessed DIY-mushroom products on eBay.

Even mycelium grown in tanks will contain some heavy metals, but there are ways to filter this out to a non-toxic level.

 

All plants contain some heavy metals as a matter of fact.


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#73 LongLife

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 11:57 PM

realmushrooms, i already did your test for starch with fungi perfecti brand and it did not show signs of starch. i already posted this in another thread in which you linked to how to test for starch in mushrooms. i did it exactly as shown and no sign. yet, it seems to me fungi perfecti is indeed grown on starch and it confuses me as to why the test did not work. if you wish to try it, then thats fine. but something is not right here i think...

 

longlife, i already took amyloban extracts for extended periods of time and they werent cheap and they were scam. absolutely no effect from prolonged high doses (no negative nor positive) versus general starchy popular supplements i tried before which actually had some minor effect. so i can conclude amyloban is suspicious and its not useful or recommended by me.

NORMALIZING: I intended to contact the company that markets Amyloban 3339 from Lion's Mane today but haven't yet. I thought to wait first to see if there was any response from the forum members, thank you for your input concerning having used this form product. I have not done any further research on this either which I shall prior to purchasing. 

 

A few questions:

You state that "...they weren't cheap...". How much were they at the time you took them?

I saw they are under $45 a bottle for a thirty day supply now (assuming the recommended 4 capsules a day).

 

You state that "...no effect from prolonged high doses...".

I assume this was the same product that the company in New Jersey sells (avoiding to "promote any brand"), or was it another companies product? Comparing apples to apples as it were.

 

When did you take the product, 2010, 2011, 2012?

How long did you use the product? More than three months?

What dose did you take? 

 

You state that "...versus general starchy popular supplements I tried before...?

Are you referring to having taken other mushroom products or Lion's Mane prior to using the Amyloban 3339 product?

 

In reference to testing for starch, that looks like an important point and a reliable test needs to be identified AND also insisted to be provided from the seller/producer.

 

Short of growing my own, which I am mulling over, I am thinking about eventually speaking with a number of seller/growers to see what it would take to have some produced without using an organic starch base (for the mycelium portion). I am also thinking, remembering some old memory stuff right now, I believe mushrooms have to have some starch in the culture medium no matter what to sustain their growth. I will look that up as well as consult the mycologist at the local national university here. Fortunately I donated two years working with the Biology Faculty in 2004/2005 and I will see if there is any interest in promoting a thesis project being done by a couple of the students here. 

 

It is apparent that the literature states that both active substances (hericenones and erinacinesare found in the fruiting body and only

erinacines, the more active NGF stimulant, is found in the mycelium. Not to emphasis that hericenones do not have a place or other substance stimuli effects since that has not been published yet, IMO. BUT I make this point because you stated that "...no effect from prolonged high doses...".  For now I shall assume you took high doses for more than two months and you DO NOT have any beta-amyloid to deal with (say Alzheimer's or cognitive disfunction). For lack (very small amount) of erinacines in the Amyloban 3339 product, as it i therefore only the hericenones present, and being that the amyloban in the product interacts and reduces or neutralizes the effects of beta-amyloid, this may be why you did not have any noticeable results. This is why I am asking the questions above. The Amyloban 3339 is apparently marketed for dementia treatment from what I gather from the company's webpage about the product.

 

If, in fact, the company mentioned earlier on that appeared as though mentioning it was a marketing attempt, which it certainly was NOT, they provide a cellulose free mycelium concentrate, predominately erinacines, then wow. That I would like to obtain and use alongside Amyloban 3339. I am over the 60 year mark and I am concerned about the rapid incidence of Alzheimer's and dementia en general. I realize that this is primarily a diet, past and present diet matter. I keep thinking about how much Kentucky chicken, Tasty Freeze and such and all those french fries with sugar drinks. I want to get rid of the lipofuscin, tau tangles and beta-amyloid protein not-folding crap going on before it goes on like yesterday. Therefore my keen interest in the subject and in Lion's Mane for it's obvious benefits. Cheers.

 

ABOUT your other post concerning mushrooms/mycelium being hyperaccumulators. We all are like that in one way or another, all life but aside from that we can use "the salza" made of equal parts of garlic, ginger root, turmeric root, along with equal parts of parsley and cilantro (culantro) leaves. This not only captures, chelates and isolates many heavy metals but also mobilizes, or assists transport, to removal through the bowels and urine.

Also, we do not know, yet, if Lion's Mane and some of the other magical mushrooms for our health actually accumulate, isolate and make biologically inactive the heavy metals or if these metals are released as toxins into our metabolism. Meanwhile, an ICPU or chromatography analysis of toxic metals is necessary before consuming any mushroom products purchased. Producers can easily use atomized activated charcoal filters to their water and use culture medium / nutrients that are pure grade for mycelium production in inert growing chambers. The fruiting body portion of the formula is another matter but that process could be handled by using inert medium, substrate, as used in hydroponics to support mycelium growth and sustain the fruiting mushrooms. That material is reusable a few times too after sterilization. Hot water and alcohol extraction is required to extract everything the Lion's Mane has to offer as some of these substances are fat soluble.


Edited by LongLife, 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM.


#74 LongLife

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 07:37 AM

Longlife, Amyloban is made from Lion's Mane fruiting body, not the mycelium, according to the manufacturer.

 

"Ingredients - Lion's Mane (Hericium erinaceus) Fruiting Body Extract, Amycenone®, Standardized to contain amyloban including hericenones "

 

They claim on their website it contains 0.5% herinacenones. How they determine this they won't say (I sent them a message), which makes me suspicious because there is no reference material available to test it against using e.g. HPLC. On the other hand, it's also not possible to prove it is NOT in there - again, because there is no reference material.

 

Personally, I think it is just a smart marketing concept and not much more. No hard facts at all, just talk. No independent research available at all.

 

NB - The company also received a warning from the FDA. The FDA findings confirm IMO that insisting on 3rd party testing is very much justified.

 

I quote from the FDA report:

 

"Your firm did not verify that a subset of the finished batches of dietary supplements, identified through a sound statistical sampling plan, or every finished batch, meets product specifications for identity, purity, strength, and composition,[...]"

 

and

 

"Although your firm sent out samples of these finished product lots to outside laboratories for testing, the laboratories only tested for heavy metals (mercury, lead, arsenic, and cadmium) and food chemistry (ash, total calories, total carbohydrates, fat, moisture, and protein); instead of conducting assay tests to determine that the components were consistent with your firm’s established specifications.  Heavy metals and food chemistry are not included in your finished product specifications."

 

and

 

"Your firm did not conduct at least one appropriate test or examination to verify the identity of a component that is a dietary ingredient, prior to its use, as required by 21 CFR 111.75(a)(1)(i)."

 

and

 

"your firm relied on Certificates of Analysis (COA) from your suppliers. A COA from a supplier may not be used to verify the identity of any component that is a dietary ingredient [see 21 CFR 111.75(a)]."

VLAD: Thank you for that data point on the FDA. (I wish someone would educate me on how to do that with the hyperlinking) I read the letter from 2012 and will do so a couple of times to be prepared before communicating with this supplier/producer. 

 

I realize that the fruiting body is their source of their product and not the mycelium, which leads me to believe they do not produce the raw materials but purchase them and then work their patented process; I have yet to look at their patent.

 

You state:

"They claim on their website it contains 0.5% herinacenones. How they determine this they won't say (I sent them a message), which makes me suspicious because there is no reference material available to test it against using e.g. HPLC. On the other hand, it's also not possible to prove it is NOT in there - again, because there is no reference material."

 

They actually do have the 'equal to or greater than sign' before the 0.5% herinacenones, so there a minimum or MORE than 0.5% of herinacenones. Which is a good thing since it is erinacines that are the primary NGF simulator/synthesizer, as stated in the research sited prior.  

 

There are laboratory instruments for isolating organic elements and identifying them, most of the literature on medical research of these organic compounds speak of the techniques used, SEE THIS:

https://www.research...ebee9881249.pdf

 

 

ALSO FROM: http://bioupdate.org...tia-and-beyond/

[This website does not sell any mushroom product and has many articles on Lion's Mane. The article goes on to list a number of aliments that responded very positively to Lion's Mane. Please see the article for the references if interested.]

 

Amyloban

An additional fat-soluble fraction isolated from Lion’s Mane, called amyloban, was found to protect against neuronal cell death caused by toxic beta amyloid peptide.3 Beta amyloid peptide is the main component of plaque that develops in the brains of Alzheimer’s disease patients, causing destruction of neurons as it progresses. It is believed that amyloid deposition also increases the risk of cerebral hemorrhagic stroke by causing blood vessels to become brittle and eventually break. Because amyloban and hericenones are fat-soluble, they are not contained in products extracted with hot water only. Concentration of active compounds requires a two-step process utilizing both ethanol (alcohol) and hot water.

 

Anti-Dementia Studies

A study at a Chinese Pharmaceutical University compared AmycenoneTM, a Lion’s Mane extract standardized to contain hericenones (0.5%) and amyloban (6%), with donepezil, a common Alzheimer’s drug (Aricept).4 In the experiment, an Alzheimer’s disease model was created in rats so that the two compounds could be compared. Results showed that rats treated with the mushroom extract performed a water maze test equal or better to the Alzheimer’s drug, depending on dosage of the extract. Also, rats who received Lion’s Mane extract produced significantly more NGF.

A double-blind, placebo-controlled study, demonstrated that Lion’s Mane is effective in patients diagnosed with mild cognitive impairment.5 A group of thirty Japanese men and women ages 50 to 80 were randomized into two 15-person groups, one of which was given Lion’s Mane and the other a placebo. The subjects in the Lion’s Mane group took four 250 milligram tablets containing dry powder three times per day for sixteen weeks. At weeks 8, 12, and 16 of the trial, the Lion’s Mane group showed significantly increased scores on a cognitive function scale compared with the placebo group.

 

The assessment was made using the revised Hasegawa Dementia Scale, the preferred test in Asian countries for subjective verification before and after treatment. It is considered more accurate for assessing cognitive impairment than a Western version, which screens for Alzheimer’s disease in elderly psychiatric patients. At the end of the trial, 10 subjects in the Lion’s Mane group were notably improved with one unchanged compared to one in the placebo group improved and thirteen cases unchanged. It is important to note that scores of the Lion’s Mane group increased with the duration of intake. However, four weeks after terminating the supplement the scores decreased significantly, indicating that cognitive benefits are maintained only with continuous administration of Lion’s Mane.

 

Cheers.



#75 normalizing

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 07:50 AM

 

realmushrooms, i already did your test for starch with fungi perfecti brand and it did not show signs of starch. i already posted this in another thread in which you linked to how to test for starch in mushrooms. i did it exactly as shown and no sign. yet, it seems to me fungi perfecti is indeed grown on starch and it confuses me as to why the test did not work. if you wish to try it, then thats fine. but something is not right here i think...

 

longlife, i already took amyloban extracts for extended periods of time and they werent cheap and they were scam. absolutely no effect from prolonged high doses (no negative nor positive) versus general starchy popular supplements i tried before which actually had some minor effect. so i can conclude amyloban is suspicious and its not useful or recommended by me.

NORMALIZING: I intended to contact the company that markets Amyloban 3339 from Lion's Mane today but haven't yet. I thought to wait first to see if there was any response from the forum members, thank you for your input concerning having used this form product. I have not done any further research on this either which I shall prior to purchasing. 

 

A few questions:

You state that "...they weren't cheap...". How much were they at the time you took them?

I saw they are under $45 a bottle for a thirty day supply now (assuming the recommended 4 capsules a day).

 

You state that "...no effect from prolonged high doses...".

I assume this was the same product that the company in New Jersey sells (avoiding to "promote any brand"), or was it another companies product? Comparing apples to apples as it were.

 

When did you take the product, 2010, 2011, 2012?

How long did you use the product? More than three months?

What dose did you take? 

 

You state that "...versus general starchy popular supplements I tried before...?

Are you referring to having taken other mushroom products or Lion's Mane prior to using the Amyloban 3339 product?

 

In reference to testing for starch, that looks like an important point and a reliable test needs to be identified AND also insisted to be provided from the seller/producer.

 

Short of growing my own, which I am mulling over, I am thinking about eventually speaking with a number of seller/growers to see what it would take to have some produced without using an organic starch base (for the mycelium portion). I am also thinking, remembering some old memory stuff right now, I believe mushrooms have to have some starch in the culture medium no matter what to sustain their growth. I will look that up as well as consult the mycologist at the local national university here. Fortunately I donated two years working with the Biology Faculty in 2004/2005 and I will see if there is any interest in promoting a thesis project being done by a couple of the students here. 

 

It is apparent that the literature states that both active substances (hericenones and erinacinesare found in the fruiting body and only

erinacines, the more active NGF stimulant, is found in the mycelium. Not to emphasis that hericenones do not have a place or other substance stimuli effects since that has not been published yet, IMO. BUT I make this point because you stated that "...no effect from prolonged high doses...".  For now I shall assume you took high doses for more than two months and you DO NOT have any beta-amyloid to deal with (say Alzheimer's or cognitive disfunction). For lack (very small amount) of erinacines in the Amyloban 3339 product, as it i therefore only the hericenones present, and being that the amyloban in the product interacts and reduces or neutralizes the effects of beta-amyloid, this may be why you did not have any noticeable results. This is why I am asking the questions above. The Amyloban 3339 is apparently marketed for dementia treatment from what I gather from the company's webpage about the product.

 

If, in fact, the company mentioned earlier on that appeared as though mentioning it was a marketing attempt, which it certainly was NOT, they provide a cellulose free mycelium concentrate, predominately erinacines, then wow. That I would like to obtain and use alongside Amyloban 3339. I am over the 60 year mark and I am concerned about the rapid incidence of Alzheimer's and dementia en general. I realize that this is primarily a diet, past and present diet matter. I keep thinking about how much Kentucky chicken, Tasty Freeze and such and all those french fries with sugar drinks. I want to get rid of the lipofuscin, tau tangles and beta-amyloid protein not-folding crap going on before it goes on like yesterday. Therefore my keen interest in the subject and in Lion's Mane for it's obvious benefits. Cheers.

 

ABOUT your other post concerning mushrooms/mycelium being hyperaccumulators. We all are like that in one way or another, all life but aside from that we can use "the salza" made of equal parts of garlic, ginger root, turmeric root, along with equal parts of parsley and cilantro (culantro) leaves. This not only captures, chelates and isolates many heavy metals but also mobilizes, or assists transport, to removal through the bowels and urine.

Also, we do not know, yet, if Lion's Mane and some of the other magical mushrooms for our health actually accumulate, isolate and make biologically inactive the heavy metals or if these metals are released as toxins into our metabolism. Meanwhile, an ICPU or chromatography analysis of toxic metals is necessary before consuming any mushroom products purchased. Producers can easily use atomized activated charcoal filters to their water and use culture medium / nutrients that are pure grade for mycelium production in inert growing chambers. The fruiting body portion of the formula is another matter but that process could be handled by using inert medium, substrate, as used in hydroponics to support mycelium growth and sustain the fruiting mushrooms. That material is reusable a few times too after sterilization. Hot water and alcohol extraction is required to extract everything the Lion's Mane has to offer as some of these substances are fat soluble.

 

 

there were selling for up to $60 at the store i was working and i had the chance to experiment with them because i had a huge discount, some were even free because they were to expire and nobody was buying them. i ended up throwing the extra bottle deeming it useless.

i dont remember the amount but it did say 4 a day or more depending on your condition or medical advice etc. so that makes them run out pretty fast if you take as many daily. with such a price tag, not worthy.

it was mushroom wisdom brand, and i took high doses, up to 8 pills a day for 3 weeks at least and it was maybe 2 years ago or so.

i was comparing it to other lion's mane ive taken from various companies prior some i remember were fungi perfecti which were supposely full of starch and no indication of active ingredients on label BUT i did notice stimulation and anxiety comparable to taking choline supplement as it is in my case i react bad to choline supplements but ive read the way it works is kind of similar so there was an effect. im just not 100% sure it was the fungi perfecti brand or the 2-3 others i experimented at about the same time i just vividly remember using fungi perfecti many times.

i think amyloban is a scam.
 


Edited by normalizing, 02 March 2016 - 07:52 AM.


#76 normalizing

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 07:57 AM

Exactly that's why you should always ask for COA's (preferably of an independent 3rd party) and not go out and harvest your own mushrooms, or buy raw dried ones or unprocessed DIY-mushroom products on eBay.

Even mycelium grown in tanks will contain some heavy metals, but there are ways to filter this out to a non-toxic level.

 

All plants contain some heavy metals as a matter of fact.

 

i was checking on NCBI and found many studies done on various mushrooms soil based, specifically having heavy metals + radioactive stuff in them (perhaps collected for near by sites with radiation). a lot of the studies were done in eastern europe and in poland in few cases but always give more or less same reports. so far it seems to me soil based mushrooms are more likely to accumulate such toxic material than wood based ones. or am i wrong on this? i couldnt find comparison anywhere, whats your opinion on this? supposedly soil is much easier to transfer various nasty material rather than through a tree which kind of filters some of it at least?
 



#77 Real Mushrooms

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 05:42 PM

A double-blind, placebo-controlled study, demonstrated that Lion’s Mane is effective in patients diagnosed with mild cognitive impairment.5 A group of thirty Japanese men and women ages 50 to 80 were randomized into two 15-person groups, one of which was given Lion’s Mane and the other a placebo. The subjects in the Lion’s Mane group took four 250 milligram tablets containing dry powder three times per day for sixteen weeks. At weeks 8, 12, and 16 of the trial, the Lion’s Mane group showed significantly increased scores on a cognitive function scale compared with the placebo group.

This is the study I linked earlier. It uses ground up un-extracted lions mane fruiting body, not amycenone. Though the lions mane group showed improved cognition, when they were taken off lions mane the effects subsided.

 

 i was checking on NCBI and found many studies done on various mushrooms soil based, specifically having heavy metals + radioactive stuff in them (perhaps collected for near by sites with radiation). a lot of the studies were done in eastern europe and in poland in few cases but always give more or less same reports. so far it seems to me soil based mushrooms are more likely to accumulate such toxic material than wood based ones. or am i wrong on this? i couldnt find comparison anywhere, whats your opinion on this? supposedly soil is much easier to transfer various nasty material rather than through a tree which kind of filters some of it at least?

 

Any natural product is going to have some amounts of heavy metals, regardless of location. This is why testing is necessary for any natural product. 

 

Mushrooms are typically grown in some of wood/grain substrate. Reishi is the only mushroom I've seen that is specifically log grown though the logs are buried in the ground. We've travelled to China multiple times and have seen a variety of different mushroom farms and factories. 



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#78 normalizing

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 09:23 PM

it didnt really answer what i asked but thanks



#79 Vlad

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 10:16 PM

[....]

They actually do have the 'equal to or greater than sign' before the 0.5% herinacenones, so there a minimum or MORE than 0.5% of herinacenones. Which is a good thing since it is erinacines that are the primary NGF simulator/synthesizer, as stated in the research sited prior.  

 

There are laboratory instruments for isolating organic elements and identifying them, most of the literature on medical research of these organic compounds speak of the techniques used, SEE THIS:

https://www.research...ebee9881249.pdf

 

[....]

 

I think you are mixing up the herinacenones and the erinacines here in your conclusion ? The fruiting body does not contain erinacines (the desired ingredient), so this Amyloban product will not contain it either.

 

There are no standard testing assays available for herinacenones or erinacines, only experimental methods, which are unsuitable for routine testing and analysis (as described in the article you linked to) because of the time involved, the potential error margin and the cost.

 

Normal testing is using an acknowledged 99-100% pure sample of the element to be determined (available from specialized companies such as Sigma-Aldrich) and use these to calibrate a NMR or HPLC set-up and then test the sample for its purity. Straightforward, reliable and fast. 

 

Given the FDA report (they found this particular company did not test for any active ingredient at all, only heavy metals and microbial contamination) and the cost of such experimental procedures it seems highly unlikely this company actually tested for herinacenones. 

 

I agree with Normalizing, this Amyloban product is probably a scam. It most likely does not offer more therapeutic potential than a run-of-the-mill Lion's Mane fruiting body extract. 

 

As for the heavy metal accumulating properties of mushrooms, maybe this process takes more time when the mushroom is growing on a tree instead of in soil, but it will still accumulate the heavy metals (radio-active isotopes are also a type of heavy metals, BTW). From the tree and from the air.

 

Again, that's why a tested and well-processed product is IMO always preferable over a raw product (USDA organic or not also makes no difference) both for safety reasons and therapeutic potential.


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#80 LongLife

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 10:55 PM

it didnt really answer what i asked but thanks

NORMALIZING: Sorry to hear that you have a problem with Choline, as important as it is. Do you have the same problem with lecithin?

I appreciate your answers to my questions. Appears you have the experience with Lion's Mane supplements and I can understand that you feel the Amyloban 3339 is a scam, especially if you are less than 60 years old. I believe that the younger of age the less effective some of these neurotropic substances will be. At what age or point does one need to start using them to be effective against aging/degeneration of various areas of the body/brain (not that they are separate).

 

I looked last night and did not put my hands on research that finally spoke about real dosage of the active components but I remember for hericenones it was always micrograms/Kg body weight. Therefore the =+0.5% hericenones in the Amyloban 3339 product is probably in line with dosage but it does not allow calculating anything; really inadequate. It appears that not one company wants to state what the dosages are. 

 

I have become side tracked looking at these Lion's Mane products online and I did find a couple, contrary to REAL MUSHROOMS insistence, that do specify the PERCENTAGE (only) of the beta-glucans. Not getting anywhere. It appears the pricing for mycelium based products, which should be the main contributor of NGF simulator /synthesizing ability, is about $0.40/gram, again leading nowhere as to actual  erinacines - good. I believe on eBay there was a Chinese seller who obviously does not know better and listed toxic metal analysis, and all sorts of details except the actual range of erinacines and hericenones.

 

What to do? I think that these product sellers are marketers for the most part and do not want to spend any money on addressing the content in their product of the active compounds. BUT I think things would change if everyone took a moment and went onto, for instance, Amazon.com and asked questions. I have on several products and get some reply. If the companies see that people are asking the right questions some one of them might give the answers and/or start labeling and doing the analysis. I would think that with the background of the fungi perfecti owner and his access to a great laboratory, he would publish his products active ingredients contents instead of only what the product derived from. 

 

I assume that everyone reading these posts understands that China geology contains the largest and most wide spread deposits of about all of the rare earth metals and many of the toxic heavy metals besides that class. The aquifer is contaminated with these. Extensive mining and intrusive extraction without regulation has caused the largest contamination area on the planet. I doubt if it is possible to obtain any products from China that do not exceed some toxic metal values. This is a real and present danger.

 

Answering your question: most of the medicinal mushrooms grow on wood in nature, decomposing wood. Fungi were created to decompose cellulose, primarily. Their spores "seeds" spread via wind and insects, some spiders and the like too. Trees species that support Lion's Mane, oak for instance, utilize iron and organic metals from the ground into their cell structure. These are hard woods and they have metal in them. The utilization of toxic metals that are harmful to humans may also occur in trees, obviously if they are toxic to the tree it will not live nor be absorbing much very long. Fungi/mushrooms growing on the ground are generally not growing on the "earth" they are growing on dung "poop" and/or decayed cellulose/trees, leaves, branches - doing their thing; decomposing cellulose. What ever is in the cellulose, some of that is going to be in the fungi. Not all, but obviously some of those substances.

 

I know that this thread is about Lion's Mane, conditionally VERDICT ON LIONS MANE, meaning what? Peoples experience, outcome/result, observations, etc. using it, correct? Like for the NGF aspect, as it has many other properties also, but probably for the NGF. So stepping out a bit I would like to share that another fungi was found to stimulate NGF synthesis in humans and here is some data points on that and few other substances that "boost" NGF to boot. Maybe in the future there will be some thread(s) to follow too.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9272967Dictyophorines A and B, two stimulators of NGF-synthesis from the mushroom Dictyophora indusiata.

Also Know As: Phallus indusiata (causes orgasmic reaction to smelling these in some women but not any men).

 

ALSO to increase NGF:

  • Huperzine A an herb-derived alkaloid that seems to boost NGF
  • 20 minutes of certain yoga meditation elevates NGF secretion
  • Polygala tenuifolia a Chinese herb shown to increase NGF secretion in astrocytes
  • Therapygenetics - showing how NGF genes predict treatment outcome to cognitive behavioural therapy

 

AND not to stop but a good read is this:

Chemistry, Nutrition, and Health-Promoting Properties of Hericium erinaceus (Lion's Mane) Mushroom Fruiting Bodies and Mycelia and Their Bioactive Compounds. (2015, Aug.) = http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26244378

"...this overview surveys and consolidates the widely scattered literature on the chemistry (isolation and structural characterization) of polysaccharides and secondary metabolites such as erinacines, hericerins, hericenones, resorcinols, steroids, mono- and diterpenes, and volatile aroma compounds, nutritional composition, food and industrial uses, and exceptional nutritional and health-promoting aspects of H. erinaceus.

 

The reported health-promoting properties of the mushroom fruit bodies, mycelia, and bioactive pure compounds include antibiotic, anticarcinogenic, antidiabetic, antifatigue, antihypertensive, antihyperlipodemic, antisenescence, cardioprotective, hepatoprotective, nephroprotective, and neuroprotective properties and improvement of anxiety, cognitive function, and depression. The described anti-inflammatory, antioxidative, and immunostimulating properties in cells, animals, and humans seem to be responsible for the multiple health-promoting properties.

 

A wide range of research advances and techniques are described and evaluated. The collated information and suggestion for further research might facilitate and guide further studies to optimize the use of the whole mushrooms and about 70 characterized actual and potential bioactive secondary metabolites to help prevent or treat human chronic, cognitive, and neurological diseases."

 

Cheers.



#81 Hopscotch1

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 11:45 PM

Any user experience with this product?? https://brainforza.c...-mane-mushroom/



#82 normalizing

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 09:45 AM

longlife, the "orgasmic" mushroom you mentioned has been debunked as such; http://www.scienceal...ntaneous-orgasm



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#83 normalizing

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 10:17 AM

also found newly understudied and undeveloped fungi for NGF;

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22401866 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21530015

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25746852

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16881016

 

https://en.wikipedia...helephoric_acid

 

and newly found one in lion's mane http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26807743  -can someone explain to me what "significantly increased the level of insulin-degrading enzyme in cerebral cortex" even means??


Edited by normalizing, 03 March 2016 - 10:25 AM.


#84 Vlad

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 10:24 AM

Any user experience with this product?? https://brainforza.c...-mane-mushroom/

 

I have not used it but noticed their quality claims some time ago. I then asked the company for background and found they are selling Aloha Medicinals's Lion's Mane powder. Private label. They had no third party COA's to prove their claims, so IMO it's all marketing talk and little substance.

 

It is not extracted which is even written on their website:

"No extract required. BrainForza™’s certified organic mushrooms are grown for the purpose of functional nutrition and 5x stronger than wild grown mushrooms."

 

They also write :

"the actives in the mushrooms are usually 5x stronger than that of wild grown mushrooms. This is one of the reasons why an extract is not needed!"  

 

Which tells me they have no clue why extraction is essential in the case of mushrooms / mycelia (people have trouble digesting it unless it's extracted). See this link for the background if you're not familiar with this. It's all about bioavailability.

 

This product is grown on grains, and the biomass (fruiting body + mycelium + substrate leftovers) is dried, ground up and encapsulated. Bioavailability is very low. It will probably stimulate your bowels very effectively, though (high in dietary fiber).



#85 Busyboy

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 07:03 PM

Well, I got my order of Lion's Mane extract yesterday. Dosed daily @ 1g, no noticeable effects. However, it's an adaptogen so I'll take it for consecutive weeks and report back. Might megadose and see what happens too.

#86 normalizing

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 09:05 PM

busyboy whats the point of taking it anyway, do you have health problems? if you are young and healthy, you are being unreasonable.



#87 Busyboy

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 10:33 PM

busyboy whats the point of taking it anyway, do you have health problems? if you are young and healthy, you are being unreasonable.


Why else is anyone taking nootropics in general? Of course it's because we want an edge, and that's why I'm taking it. Lions Mane has already been studied on young adults, and they benefited from it. Why wouldn't I try if I know it will work? It's a neuroprotective mushroom that strengthens the immune system, while increasing NGF in both the body and brain. It's also extremely safe, so it poses no risk to me. I'd rather take a mushroom extract over racetams or Adderal any day.

#88 Real Mushrooms

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 12:16 AM

I doubt if it is possible to obtain any products from China that do not exceed some toxic metal values. This is a real and present danger.

 

This is false or many products, including ours, would not be salable. Not to mention the many other types of herbal products that come from China.

 

I have become side tracked looking at these Lion's Mane products online and I did find a couple, contrary to REAL MUSHROOMS insistence, that do specify the PERCENTAGE (only) of the beta-glucans. 

 

Pure mycelium products that list beta-glucans? Please link or dm me. 

 

 

Any user experience with this product?? https://brainforza.c...-mane-mushroom/

 

I have not used it but noticed their quality claims some time ago. I then asked the company for background and found they are selling Aloha Medicinals's Lion's Mane powder. Private label. They had no third party COA's to prove their claims, so IMO it's all marketing talk and little substance.

 

It is not extracted which is even written on their website:

"No extract required. BrainForza™’s certified organic mushrooms are grown for the purpose of functional nutrition and 5x stronger than wild grown mushrooms."

 

They also write :

"the actives in the mushrooms are usually 5x stronger than that of wild grown mushrooms. This is one of the reasons why an extract is not needed!"  

 

Which tells me they have no clue why extraction is essential in the case of mushrooms / mycelia (people have trouble digesting it unless it's extracted). See this link for the background if you're not familiar with this. It's all about bioavailability.

 

This product is grown on grains, and the biomass (fruiting body + mycelium + substrate leftovers) is dried, ground up and encapsulated. Bioavailability is very low. It will probably stimulate your bowels very effectively, though (high in dietary fiber).

 

 

Ya Aloha Medicinals is mycelium on grain.


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#89 LongLife

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 01:29 AM

 

busyboy whats the point of taking it anyway, do you have health problems? if you are young and healthy, you are being unreasonable.


Why else is anyone taking nootropics in general? Of course it's because we want an edge, and that's why I'm taking it. Lions Mane has already been studied on young adults, and they benefited from it. Why wouldn't I try if I know it will work? It's a neuroprotective mushroom that strengthens the immune system, while increasing NGF in both the body and brain. It's also extremely safe, so it poses no risk to me. I'd rather take a mushroom extract over racetams or Adderal any day.

 

 

http://www.degruyter...m-2013-0001.xml

 

Table 1 The health beneficial bio-active components of H. erinaceus mushroom.

Compounds Beneficial bio-activities:

 

β-Glucans (polysaccharides) (e.g. β-1,3-branched-beta-1,6-glucan with laminarin-like triple helix conformation)

 

Anti-cancerous, immuno-modulatory, neuro-protective and anti-oxidant HEP1 [a hetero-polysaccharide, with (1>6)-linked α-D-galactopyranosyl backbone)]

 

Anti-cancerous and immuno-modulatory HEPF3 (a hetero-polysaccharide, with a branched penta-saccharide repeating unit)

 

Anti-cancerous and immuno-modulatory Endo-polysaccharides Hepato-protective and anti-oxidant

 

Other polysaccharides: 6-methyl-2,5-dihydroxymethyl-γ-pyranone; 2-hydroxymethyl-5-α-hydroxyethyl-γ-pyranone; 4-chloro-3,5-dimethoxybenzoic-O-arabitol ester; 4-chloro-3,5- dimethoxybenzoic methyl ester and 4-chloro-3,5-dimethoxybenzoic acid

 

Wide spectrum health beneficial effects, including anti-cancerous and immunomodulatory activities

 

Lipid compounds: palmitic and stearic acid mixture; behenic acid and tetracosanic acid mixture; 5-α-ergostan-3-one; 5-α-stigmasten-22-en-3-one and 5-α-stigmastan-3-one

 

Wide spectrum health beneficial effects Hericenone B (phenolic compound)

 

Anti-platelet aggregation (protection of myocardial infarction, stroke, etc.)

 

THIS STUDY DOES NOT TALK ABOUT NGF BY NAME. IF REFERENCES NEURON PROTECTION AND RELATED BENEFITS. ALSO THE STUDY WAS PERFORMED ON VARIOUS FRUIT BODY EXTRACTIONS AND NOT MYCELIUM, WHICH MIGHT BE THE REASON THAT NGF WAS NOT ADDRESSES. THE STUDY WAS PUBLISHED IN 2013.



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#90 LongLife

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 02:24 AM

longlife, the "orgasmic" mushroom you mentioned has been debunked as such; http://www.scienceal...ntaneous-orgasm

NORMALIZING: Yes, there are some articles online, as recent as six months ago, debating the veracity to the observation of the 6 of  the 16 female subjects who claimed to have experienced mild spontaneous orgasm when smelling the "unidentified" mushroom(s), the rest experienced rapid heart beats. Humm.

 

Apparently one online blog has written to Aloha Medicinals Inc., president and co-author of the report in question asking, i quess, for verification and validity of the published paper. They have yet received a reply OR did not publish the reply. Meanwhile, the Huffingtom Post has a webpage about this and I will just snip this piece out:

 

Holliday, who is president of Aloha Medicinals Inc., a producer of medicinal organic mushrooms, said he does intend to market these mushroom's effects.

 

"This is a paper I published 14 years ago," Holliday said. "This is a research project in the works, with the intention to bring this on the market as a drug... Also, no cultures [or] spores are available for anyone else to grow this."= https://web.archive....302-3 (162).pdf

 

The website: http://www.huffingto...4b050c6c4a42e2d

 

Well now...No spores, No cultures, maybe it was psilocybin that made them do it? (Make the observation or the report?) Now I am wondering if there are any Mushrooms either...14 years ago, wow! What is Mr. Holliday waiting for?

 

With all due respect, my sincere apology for including in my post my comment related to this species. I took the matter at face value from a reputable journal article. As you are aware, it is the NGF aspect of the species Dictyophora that drew my attention and therefore I shared the same here; the Spirit of the post and forum.

 

Again, the study referenced concerning two NGF simulators found in the species Dictyophora , now classified as Phallus, to wit: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9272967

Happy reading!

 


Edited by LongLife, 04 March 2016 - 02:33 AM.






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