258 replies to this topic

[LongLife]

REAL MUSHROOMS:

 

Concerning Post #88

I have a family member who has been doing business in China (not mushrooms) for over twenty years. He is an engineer. Beside hearing his experiences, there are many articles on the Internet concerning the state of environmental affairs in China. My military retired father smuggled Bibles in Chinese into China, in the days of execution with no trail if caught, for many years until he died of cancer. I listed to his observation of the environmental problems. I realize China is a very large land mass also.

 

What shocked me totally was reading the articles about US food suppliers, health food suppliers, and MAJOR health food suppliers, who voluntarily either withdrew product in the USA and/or reformulated products (ie. protein drinks, etc) after having the exceeding levels of various toxic metals found in their off-the-shelf products brought to their attention and the news posted over the Internet. Pretty embarrassing. This is the basis for my comment about why I would prefer to purchase product grown in the USA and other facts, not assumptions.

 

I was not aware that you sell/produce/have something to do with marketing Chinese products in the USA. My intent was/is not to offend you. I DO realize that under some fairly simple conditions that water (my main concern) and atmosphere can be filtered and controlled. That mycelium growing vessels can be non metallic or of high quality stainless steel. That someone can make a "pure" (??) mycelium product free of contaminates or at least free of toxic material(s) AND have a high quantity of NGF simulator via UV added lighting. No debate. I want to find that product provider/producer.

 

As the subject being spoken about here a lot on these mushroom threads: qualitative / quantitative. Just give me the real stuff, be it from mycelium or even from fruiting bodies but preferably both, IMO

 

I want to see analysis, X-Ray spectrometer, ICP, etc.

 

IF you grow, sell, market a superior product and your product is from China and costs are low in China, why not get analysis there and standardize a stable test extract. I remember how fast and easy it was to use a column chromatography for isolating specific organic compounds. You need that when one makes any homemade organic goods for ingestion. Maybe there are lines being crossed when selling a purified extract compared to selling/marketing the whole material (mycelium/fruting body).

 

By the way, the fruiting bodies are reported in various studies to contain both NGF stimulating substances, although very little of the main NGF simulator. From what I read anyways. 

 

So back on track, do you know of any supplier who has a high quality product with high concentration of the active two families of organic compounds for NGF stimulation from Lion's Mane?

 

I am not dreaming and alluding to a "pure" anything. That will not happen. Also I never mentioned anything about "pure" mycelium prior.

[EFTANG]

[...]

What shocked me totally was reading the articles about US food suppliers, health food suppliers, and MAJOR health food suppliers, who voluntarily either withdrew product in the USA and/or reformulated products (ie. protein drinks, etc) after having the exceeding levels of various toxic metals found in their off-the-shelf products brought to their attention and the news posted over the Internet. Pretty embarrassing. This is the basis for my comment about why I would prefer to purchase product grown in the USA and other facts, not assumptions.

 

[...]

 

 

I want to see analysis, X-Ray spectrometer, ICP, etc.

 

 

 

That's the only solution available to consumers. Just make sure the supplier has a reliable 3rd party COA that shows the product is safe.

 

Also, the customs are very strict with imports from China. They take samples and verify that the products are safe and not contaminated. That includes contamination with prescription drugs or other illegal substances. See e.g. this link. You might notice in that article products from the US and the EU itself are also being confiscated and destroyed because of contamination or illegal ingredients.

 

The core is, at least IMO, that money is the main motivation for the majority of companies. Money (increasing profits) makes people do nasty things, we all know that.

That's why it's important to do your own due diligence. Don't trust impressive-looking websites, scientific blah-blah or guys-in-white-coats recommending something just like that. (It's even illegal to use guys-in-white-coats in marketing in the EU, did you know that - because they trigger the assumption that somehow 'doctors' or 'scientists' are backing up the product).

Pending patents or granted patents are also used as a marketing instrument, but 'patented' does not mean 'scientifically validated', although most people assume that. It's all marketing. Don't assume it's good. Assume it's about the money, and you're probably right.

 

A lot of the negative ideas about Chinese products are also fueled/kept alive by people / companies that have a financial interest. Like, Paul Stamets stated about 15 years ago that Chinese mushroom products contained often unhealthy amounts of heavy metals, based on some samples he had tested. That was 15 years ago, and he and others are still using that statement, ignoring the fact that Chinese suppliers might have improved their quality control since then (and they have). Almost all extracted mushroom products on the market are from China, and they're safe, otherwise the FDA would have stepped in a long time ago. As said, customs are checking imports as well.

 

Aloha Medicinals states proudly on their website 'contains no ingredients from China!!' - the subtext being that these are best avoided / are always bad. Aloha Medicinals is known to produce what is probably the lowest quality mushroom products in the market.

 

They have been using 'dry labs' (Atlas Bioscience) which makes their third party COA's unreliable. John Holiday, the guy who owns Aloha Medicinals even managed to become vice-president of the International Society for Medicinal Mushrooms. But I'm convinced it's not because he's so concerned with people's health (his products wouldn't have been so poor if that was the case) but because he's generous with his funding. He knows that a title such as 'vice-president of the ISMM' gives him and his company credibility. It's only a small investment taking into account the marketing value. 

[Real Mushrooms]

This is the basis for my comment about why I would prefer to purchase product grown in the USA and other facts, not assumptions.

 

That's the big issue with medicinal mushroom products. Any affordable pure mycelium or fruiting body extract supplement can not be made in the USA.

 

Is it doable? Yes. Is it economical? No.

 

Hence why all the major USA suppliers use mycelium on grain. It's easy to do (anyone can do it at home) and very cheap to make.

 

As I stated in my previous post, our products are heavily tested and comply with all heavy metals regulations, specifically the American Health Products Association (AHPA) for heavy metals which is in compliance with CA Prop 65. 

 

At some point we are hoping to be able to quantify the hericinones and erinacines as we do have scientific contacts in China within the mushroom industry. 

[playground]

The Verdict on Lions Mane ? ? ?

 

There's no evidence that it's doing what most people want it to do:

 

...that.... it's making us smarter, or that it's improving our cognitive abilities

or remedying any deficits have or feel we may have.

 

All there is... is a lot of noise about what happens in a test tube.

There's only one study with actual human beings.  It's a study of dementing elderly japanese ladies living

in a care home.  Apparently feeding the raw lion's mane powder made these old ladies more calm

and easier to for carers deal with..... but let's face it... that's hardly an IQ test.

And that study has never been replicated.

Who funded that study, i wonder ? 

Perhaps they had/have financial interests in production of Lions Mane supplements.

 

In the 5 years or so since Lion's Mane began to get popular, there isn't one published study that's

investigated the effect of lion's mane consumption on human cognition....  on reaction times,

on ability to perform the stroop test, on short term memory, or Raven's Matrices,

on pattern matching,...zilch.  Why is that, I wonder.

 

Five years and an awful lot of public interest and media attention on Lion's Mane and yet

no confirmatory trials with human beings.  No studies looking specifically and human cognitive abilities.

There's a 'positive result publishing bias' in scientific journals.  It's well known and sometimes lamented.

It means, if you have a study that says X influences Y, that paper is more likely to be published than

a paper that says X doesn't influence Y.  Hence 'positive result publishing bias'.

 

There may well have been studies looking at the influence of lion's mane consumption on some

aspect(s) of cognitive functioning... but unless they make a positive finding, they're unlikely to get 

published.   So it's quite a troubling observation that, in the 5 years or so since Lion's Mane became

popular,  .... there been no further studies showing that lion's mane improves cognitive functioning.

 

Could it be that we've all wasted our time and money on this ?

Edited by playground, 05 March 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[Real Mushrooms]

In the 5 years or so since Lion's Mane began to get popular, there isn't one published study that's

investigated the effect of lion's mane consumption on human cognition....  on reaction times,

on ability to perform the stroop test, on short term memory, or Raven's Matrices,

on pattern matching,...zilch.  Why is that, I wonder.

 

Medicinal mushrooms are light on clinical trials (most are from Asia) because they are natural products and therefore cannot be patented. No one wants to pay for a clinical trial only to see it referenced by all their competitors. 

 

Sad fact for natural products but that's how it is.

[normalizing]

^ thats not true. natural products get patents all the time. special extracts with fancy names and what not. check out how many companies out there steal natural components and patent them with names and claim its the most bioavailable extract out there. lots of if you care to look. good example is curcumin for one, tons of different extract names claiming their product is more bioavailable and better quality than their competitor and the prices can go quite high too. so what you are saying is not correct

[Real Mushrooms]

I think you're confusing trademark with patent. Many companies will take a generic natural ingredient and give it a fancy name so they can trademark it. Then if they sell this ingredient to other companies the trademark name will show up on the supplements panel.

 

For you example, all those competitors are basically selling the same thing, curcumin extracts, just under different names. That is trademarking.

Edited by Real Mushrooms, 05 March 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[playground]

The problem with the continual emphasis on what Lion's Mane does in a test tube,

is that, notoriously, it can be very difficult getting chemical X into the brain from an oral route:

 

There's 3 high hurdles to jump:

1. There's the whole issue about whether the digestive system will destroy Chemical X, or not.

2. Then there's the issue about whether Chemical X will be metabolised in some way by the liver.

3. Then there's the issue of whether Chemical X can cross the blood brain barrier.

 

Do we have any evidence that the chemical goodies in Lion's Mane can jump these 3 hurdles ?

To the best of my knowledge... there is no evidence of this.

 

So not only is there no evidence of Lion's Mane having a positive effect on human cognition.

There's no evidence that Lion's Mane even arrives at the party.

 

However, if someone has such evidence... please post it here. 

 

 

Edited by playground, 06 March 2016 - 12:49 AM.

[LongLife]

The problem with the continual emphasis on what Lion's Mane does in a test tube,

is that, notoriously, it can be very difficult getting chemical X into the brain from an oral route:

 

There's 3 high hurdles to jump:

1. There's the whole issue about whether the digestive system will destroy Chemical X, or not.

2. Then there's the issue about whether Chemical X will be metabolised in some way by the liver.

3. Then there's the issue of whether Chemical X can cross the blood brain barrier.

 

Do we have any evidence that the chemical goodies in Lion's Mane can jump these 3 hurdles ?

To the best of my knowledge... there is no evidence of this.

 

So not only is there no evidence of Lion's Mane having a positive effect on human cognition.

There's no evidence that Lion's Mane even arrives at the party.

 

However, if someone has such evidence... please post it here. 

PLAYGROUND:

Exactly. I agree. Deviating a moment though;

Since your post concerning sci-hub.io I have gone rampant, maybe you have done similar but there are a number of ABSTRACTS that appear NOT to download the full paper, for instance:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12675022

 

therefore, have you too encounter this and if so, have you found a work-around? I would appreciate it if you have and could share that also, in the name of investigation!

 

BACK on track" your three points are "to the point", your usual style. I was frustrated until you brought to light that gem link to get full papers and I have downloaded and read about 25 papers this weekend including the 30 old ladies study you mentioned. There appears recurring authors in these Chinese studies too...1.3 billion people in China and a few mushroom researchers? Maybe its political. Is their research funding from Big Pharma too? Hummm. Suspicious. Looks like the majority are associated researchers and are from universities and that would be public, STATE, funded, correct? Limited number of  human studies is correct, there are currently few. They use people like canon fodder there in China, sometimes, so why the limited human studies?

 

Where is the proof, that's correct. We all are looking for RESULTS and willing to purchase. "Verdict on Lion's Mane", I came here, after reading all the other threads, looking for results: those associated with NGF stimulation/synthesis, from avid users. Maybe there are not many Forum users of Lion's Mane, maybe most people are buying fruiting body (mushroom) products. It does not look like there are very many mycelium products available as of yet, only mixed and most all companies do not disclose how much by percentage is mycelium. REAL MUSHROOM has made some good points concerning this.

 

Who knows if these producers don't sell 100% of the substrate as mycelium since 100% is in fact infected and over run with mycelium. Really, if you have never seen such a thing it is difficult to wrap your mind around it but GOOGLE mycelium and click on "images" under the subject search terms box and a person can get a good idea of the reality. PLUS, like most all medicinal mushrooms, these species DO grow naturally on hardwoods not softwoods nor tannic acid containing trees. Grains contain way too much starch, does not contain the heavy mineral content (not speaking of toxic heavy metals here) and a slew of other nutrient bases that are very different. Go smack a few hardwood species with an ax and observe the "juice" that comes out. That nutrient base is not found in grains. So growing mushrooms/mycelium on a starch substrate is great for culinary purposes, not for us though. Not for people who seek the neurotropic substances that these research papers are also searching for. having contemplated this matter for some time now I am really disappointed that so many guys with PhD's in biology and other interests have not thought about or concluded their error in using product produced under these artificial protocols.

 

Apples = Apples. NO, definitively not. Fungi are very adaptable if pressured to conform to a different habitat, such as growing on a different substrate under artificially but they are also adaptable to use what is in that "new" substrate to make altered by-products. Again, just to beat a dead horse, most of these studies no not use mycelium (much higher NGF sythesis product), even the studies based on looking at NGF benefits/influences. This is like having a double MTHFR polymorisms (mutated genes) and taking Folic Acid and testing for bio-availability and increased Methyl Cycle efficiency. Not going to happen. not possible. So what are these researchers doing and how do these papers get published or is the knowledge of fungi so limited to nt see the wholes in their research parameters?  

 

CHANGING CHANNELS:

I would like to return the favor PLAYGROUND, if it turns out to assist, with this link which like a search engine for medical studies and one can choose parameters such as checking studies on: Animal, Human, InVitro, Plant, or Review, and has a section named Cumulative Knowledge, as:

"Cumulative Knowledge is determined by ascribing a numerical value to the various study types weighted in descending order as follows: (1) Meta-Analysis; (2) Human Study; (3) Human: Case Study; (4) Animal: Transgenic; (5) Animal; (6) In Vitro; (7) Review; and (8) Commentary."

 

It acts as a search engine for the medical topic of choice, I have found it very handy before going GOOGLE.

 

HERE IS THE LINK: http://www.greenmedi...icium-erinaceus

 

CHANGING CHANNELS:

PATENT, TRADEMARK, REGISTERED, these are definitely used as value-added marketing AND spreadsheet when looking for funding as they have a weighted value, they are property. Banker's and financiers look kindly to these corporate assets as a good and appropriate business investment. Government online makes it very simplified to investigate, research and obtain a copyright, Trademark, Registration and Patent Pending number: much easier than 20 years ago certainly. Patents are a little different though. I have had some experience in these also.

[LongLife]

REAL MUSHROOMS:

 

Concerning Post #88

 

...As the subject being spoken about here a lot on these mushroom threads: qualitative / quantitative. Just give me the real stuff, be it from mycelium or even from fruiting bodies but preferably both, IMO...

 

...So back on track, do you know of any supplier who has a high quality product with high concentration of the active two families of organic compounds for NGF stimulation from Lion's Mane?...

 

REAL MUSHROOMS:

Case in point as stated above:

...So back on track, do you know of any supplier who has a high quality product with high concentration of the active two families of organic compounds for NGF stimulation from Lion's Mane?...

 

Seriously. Do you know of a source? I think we would like to try it, take it around the block, give it a whirl. I'm game. 

 

BTW, I was doing my walk-the-dog duty today and I thought of burlap. How about taking a burlap type mat made of beech, birch, oak or similar Lion's Mane habitat substrate and infect that with mycelium/fruiting body parts, dipped in a nutrient jell such as agar, potato base or the like? If the mycelium decomposes the hardwood then one of two things will be the product:

Mycelium on natural hardwood (cellulose in a decomposed state), OR

Mycelium extracted (scraped off, "burlap" using warm ethanol wash, collect solutes, then hot water washed, collect solutes and all solutes evaporated, then mixed with the mycelium, dehydrated and bottled/encapsulated/bagged/out-the-door? Humm?

 

What do you think? I can envision large upright stainless steel tanks or food storage grade high-density polyethylene (HDPE).

[Real Mushrooms]

REAL MUSHROOMS:

Case in point as stated above:

...So back on track, do you know of any supplier who has a high quality product with high concentration of the active two families of organic compounds for NGF stimulation from Lion's Mane?...

 

Seriously. Do you know of a source? I think we would like to try it, take it around the block, give it a whirl. I'm game. 

 

Our Lions Mane product is just going into production right now but it is a water extract from fruiting bodies. At the moment, I believe this (pure fruiting body product) will be more beneficial than any mycelium on grain product. This is just my own conclusion based off starch/beta-glucan differences I've seen in fruiting body extracts vs mycelium on grain. 

 

Aside from us I'd recommend Oriveda, or potentially Mushroom Science. 

 

Nammex just recently published a good video explaining mycelium on grain: http://www.nammex.co...mycelium-grain/

 

Going forward, we are looking into sourcing pure liquid culture mycelium from China as well as attempting to quantify the hericinones and erinancines. Currently, we're one of the few companies measuring beta-glucans and triterpenes and one of the only companies measuring starch. We also measure cordycepin on our cordyceps which I haven't seen anyone else list. 

[normalizing]

found a recent article collecting all information on the mushroom so far and reviewing it; http://pubs.acs.org/...cs.jafc.5b02914

 

but i cant access it, some help :S

[LongLife]

NORMALIZING:

I will attempt to send a copy of the PDF file and read it. Let me know if you could open the file.

No go, file is just shy of 3MB. I did read this over the weekend and it does not contain much of what we are looking for.

 

Go TO: http://sci-hub.io/10...cs.jafc.5b02914

see if that will download the PDF version for you.

 

 

[LongLife]

 

REAL MUSHROOMS:

Case in point as stated above:

...So back on track, do you know of any supplier who has a high quality product with high concentration of the active two families of organic compounds for NGF stimulation from Lion's Mane?...

 

Seriously. Do you know of a source? I think we would like to try it, take it around the block, give it a whirl. I'm game. 

 

Our Lions Mane product is just going into production right now but it is a water extract from fruiting bodies. At the moment, I believe this (pure fruiting body product) will be more beneficial than any mycelium on grain product. This is just my own conclusion based off starch/beta-glucan differences I've seen in fruiting body extracts vs mycelium on grain. 

 

Aside from us I'd recommend Oriveda, or potentially Mushroom Science. 

 

Nammex just recently published a good video explaining mycelium on grain: http://www.nammex.co...mycelium-grain/

 

Going forward, we are looking into sourcing pure liquid culture mycelium from China as well as attempting to quantify the hericinones and erinancines. Currently, we're one of the few companies measuring beta-glucans and triterpenes and one of the only companies measuring starch. We also measure cordycepin on our cordyceps which I haven't seen anyone else list. 

 

REAL MUSHROOMS: Is there a reason why ethanol / alcohol extraction is not being performed?

[Real Mushrooms]

REAL MUSHROOMS: Is there a reason why ethanol / alcohol extraction is not being performed?

 

It would cost more but we could get it dual extracted. I've seen mixed research on whether it would be needed or not. Do you have any specific references for alcohol extraction?

[EFTANG]

REAL MUSHROOMS: Is there a reason why ethanol / alcohol extraction is not being performed?

 

 

 

I was told that alcohol extraction is not possible if you're after a powdered extract. There is a technical reason for that: the alcohol extracted product will be oily and cannot be powdered after extraction. I have no further details.

[Real Mushrooms]

I was told that alcohol extraction is not possible if you're after a powdered extract. There is a technical reason for that: the alcohol extracted product will be oily and cannot be powdered after extraction. I have no further details.

 

 

Is that just for Lions Mane? Our reishi and chaga materials are both dual extracted due to the non-water soluble triterpenes. 

[EFTANG]

 

I was told that alcohol extraction is not possible if you're after a powdered extract. There is a technical reason for that: the alcohol extracted product will be oily and cannot be powdered after extraction. I have no further details.

 

 

Is that just for Lions Mane? Our reishi and chaga materials are both dual extracted due to the non-water soluble triterpenes. 

 

I'm not 100% sure about the science behind this but I think the difference might be that both Reishi and Chaga are 'woody' with a high percentage of lignin and are relatively low on water, whereas Lion's Mane is a fleshy type of mushroom with ≥ 90% water. That might explain why the first two are easy to extract with water and alcohol and Lion's Mane is not.

 

I know about Reishi that if you go for 8% or more triterpenes (alcohol-extracted) you get the same problem - the extract will get oily.

[LongLife]

REAL MUSHROOMS, VLAD:

Alcohol extraction: I will look into it and see what comes up. Recently I found a paper concerning this subject relevant to co-factors having been found and under investigation. These function not only with the NGF aspect; hericinones and erinancines. I will post that when I find it again.

[playground]

found a recent article collecting all information on the mushroom so far and reviewing it; http://pubs.acs.org/...cs.jafc.5b02914

 

but i cant access it, some help :S

 

Hi Normalizing,

 

try this url:

 

http://pubs.acs.org....cs.jafc.5b02914

 

 

your original URL was:

 

http://pubs.acs.org/...cs.jafc.5b02914

 

I simply added ".sci-hub.io"  after the pubs.acs.org

 

hence:

 

http://pubs.acs.org.sci-hub.io/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.5b02914

 

this works with most, but not all, references to scientific research.

[LongLife]

REAL MUSHROOMS, VLAD:

Alcohol extraction: I will look into it and see what comes up. Recently I found a paper concerning this subject relevant to co-factors having been found and under investigation. These function not only with the NGF aspect; hericinones and erinancines. I will post that when I find it again.

An example of active factors found in whole mushroom/mycelium compared to water extract. I can not get the full article to download so I can not say if this was only water or hot water or steam; probably only aqueous:

International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms DOI:10.1615/IntJMedMushr.v15.i6.30
pages 539-554   Neurotrophic Properties of the Lion's Mane Medicinal Mushroom, Hericium erinaceus (Higher Basidiomycetes) from Malaysia In conclusion, the aqueous extract of H. erinaceus contained neuroactive compounds which induced NGF-synthesis and promoted neurite outgrowth in NG108-15 cells. The extract also enhanced the neurite outgrowth stimulation activity of NGF when applied in combination. The aqueous preparation of H. erinaceus had neurotrophic but not neuroprotective activities.

[playground]

 

REAL MUSHROOMS, VLAD:

Alcohol extraction: I will look into it and see what comes up. Recently I found a paper concerning this subject relevant to co-factors having been found and under investigation. These function not only with the NGF aspect; hericinones and erinancines. I will post that when I find it again.

An example of active factors found in whole mushroom/mycelium compared to water extract. I can not get the full article to download so I can not say if this was only water or hot water or steam; probably only aqueous:

International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms DOI:10.1615/IntJMedMushr.v15.i6.30
pages 539-554   Neurotrophic Properties of the Lion's Mane Medicinal Mushroom, Hericium erinaceus (Higher Basidiomycetes) from Malaysia In conclusion, the aqueous extract of H. erinaceus contained neuroactive compounds which induced NGF-synthesis and promoted neurite outgrowth in NG108-15 cells. The extract also enhanced the neurite outgrowth stimulation activity of NGF when applied in combination. The aqueous preparation of H. erinaceus had neurotrophic but not neuroprotective activities.

 

 

but these are only test-tube results.

 

This stuff doesn't survive digestion, or liver metabolism, or the blood brain barrier.

 

Who's going to inject lion's mane directly into their brain ?

 

So it's all marketing hog wash.

Edited by playground, 10 March 2016 - 05:18 AM.

[normalizing]

from that paper, it suggest fermentation is a good idea to bioactive some of the compounds in the mushroom. in fact, it seems much reasonable price cost to just have it as fermented beverage to release some of the compounds in it versus using just hot water or other solvents. now im just not sure how fermentation will be done since nobody has tried such thing before and it fairly novel idea compared to fermented baverages and foods being common in populations for centuries with no problems.

[LongLife]

 

 

REAL MUSHROOMS, VLAD:

Alcohol extraction: I will look into it and see what comes up. Recently I found a paper concerning this subject relevant to co-factors having been found and under investigation. These function not only with the NGF aspect; hericinones and erinancines. I will post that when I find it again.

An example of active factors found in whole mushroom/mycelium compared to water extract. I can not get the full article to download so I can not say if this was only water or hot water or steam; probably only aqueous:

International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms DOI:10.1615/IntJMedMushr.v15.i6.30
pages 539-554   Neurotrophic Properties of the Lion's Mane Medicinal Mushroom, Hericium erinaceus (Higher Basidiomycetes) from Malaysia In conclusion, the aqueous extract of H. erinaceus contained neuroactive compounds which induced NGF-synthesis and promoted neurite outgrowth in NG108-15 cells. The extract also enhanced the neurite outgrowth stimulation activity of NGF when applied in combination. The aqueous preparation of H. erinaceus had neurotrophic but not neuroprotective activities.

 

 

but these are only test-tube results.

 

This stuff doesn't survive digestion, or liver metabolism, or the blood brain barrier.

 

Who's going to inject lion's mane directly into their brain ?

 

So it's all marketing hog wash.

 

PLAYGROUND;

Lion's Mane use in early Oriental cultures was reserved for the royalty and elite. It did grow abundantly. The Aztec's reserved avocados in a similar fashion and was given to warriors and here in Peru there are fruits and fish that have a similar history of reserved usage.  On goes a long list of neurotrophic flora knowledge that has been handed down through time. Until relatively recent years has Lion's mane been researched and found to stimulate the synthesis of NGF inside the brain as well as the rest of the body. There are many other substances just now being identified that are beneficial. All of this you know and many readers here, some are learning because of this thread and others on the forum. We also know that studies are expensive and time consuming, not randomly designed and executed, generally having deep pocket interests. We also see most all of the studies published have been financed by government universities. 

 

Who will profit from human studies, what companies will benefit. Probably anyone who sells a Lion's Mane product; very general. Studies do show that NGF must be injected to receive a benefit or nasal spray or eye drops application because what you said is factual about degradation by the stomach and liver metabolic activity. We have not seen that in any studies. Or am I mistaken. The mushroom does not contain NGF itself but substances that stimulate our metabolism to synthesizes NGF all over including inside the brain. It does not need to be injected into the brain; Lion's Mane.

 

I do not personally take any nootropics such as racetams, so I am clean. I am interested in trying Lion's Mane and testing by observation and pre, during and post cognitive and memory tests. I have ordered a couple of pounds of fruiting body and of rice substrate mycelium for such purpose. I believe rice substrate is the lesser evil of any starch as it appears the mycelium does a great job of braking it down and consuming the majority, leaving negligible residue. So it appears to be. So I will try this mushroom out and report back from time to time. I might even ferment some and give that a test run also, first experiencing the dry powder extracts and then the fermented powders.

 

By the way PLAYGROUND, did you see my question to you about the reviews and studies I can not get downloaded through sci-hub.io; I am wondering if you have had similar problems and if so, have figured a work around? If you care to comment or share information about your experience with this. Thank you.

 

By the way, here are the only studies I have located on PUBMED for double blind studied involving Lion's Mane:

A double-blind study of effectiveness of hericium erinaceus pers therapy on chronic atrophic gastritis. A preliminary report.

Xu CP, Liu WW, Liu FX, Chen SS, Liao FQ, Xu Z, Jiang LG, Wang CA, Lu XH.

Chin Med J (Engl). 1985 Jun;98(6):455-6. No abstract available.

PMID:   3932005

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Reduction of depression and anxiety by 4 weeks Hericium erinaceus intake.

Nagano M, Shimizu K, Kondo R, Hayashi C, Sato D, Kitagawa K, Ohnuki K.

Biomed Res. 2010 Aug;31(4):231-7.

PMID:  20834180     Free Article - https://www.jstage.j...4/31_4_231/_pdf

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Select item 188443283.

Improving effects of the mushroom Yamabushitake (Hericium erinaceus) on mild cognitive impairment: a double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial.

Mori K, Inatomi S, Ouchi K, Azumi Y, Tuchida T.

Phytother Res. 2009 Mar;23(3):367-72. doi: 10.1002/ptr.2634.

PMID:  18844328

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IT appears that the effective substances made it past the stomach and probably the liver in these studies because the results were measurable, after oral ingestion...this includes the 2009 old ladies study you mentioned earlier; number 3. Performed by Hokuto Corp's Mushroom Laboratory, right, I got it.  Pretty slim pick'ins, I agree.

Edited by LongLife, 11 March 2016 - 05:41 AM.

[Real Mushrooms]

I believe rice substrate is the lesser evil of any starch as it appears the mycelium does a great job of braking it down and consuming the majority, leaving negligible residue. 

The Nammex report debunked this claim by many mycelium on grain producers. Their recent youtube video also explains this further ().

 

By all means test it but don't try to convince yourself of the contents on the product. 

 

Couldn't find the full text of the first study but the other two are both using fruiting body powders for their tests. 

[normalizing]

longlife, good idea to ferment and try it this way. but im confused as to how to be done. any clue how to ferment it either as a drink or food?

[Real Mushrooms]

longlife, good idea to ferment and try it this way. but im confused as to how to be done. any clue how to ferment it either as a drink or food?

That has already been covered. See Vlad's post: #52. Liquid fermentation is a common practise in China.

[normalizing]

 

longlife, good idea to ferment and try it this way. but im confused as to how to be done. any clue how to ferment it either as a drink or food?

That has already been covered. See Vlad's post: #52. Liquid fermentation is a common practise in China.

 

 

 

yeh i remember that and i didnt agree with this idea because the paper i read recently discussed the mushroom being fermented in a completely different more practical and cheap way than this. it was discussed as being fermented like a baverage or food, something like kombucha perhaps. this idea is much more practical and novel and thats what i was going for trying to figure out how it will be done
 

[LongLife]

FERMENTATION:

Many foods will ferment, one just needs sugar and the lack of oxygen. Naturally occurring bacteria do the rest. Usually producing a liquid by-product; their accumulated urine called alcohol. Under certain conditions the alcohol will quickly break down and turn into acetic acid or vinegar, not always though. The post #52 that VLAD made reference is a step by step patented fermentation process where in you will observe they make certain the process is kept sterile by boiling, autoclave, rotary motion for 2 days, etc. Any time you deal with mushrooms you have many live factors that will grow like wildfire under correct conditions and overtake the mycelium growth, in this case the mushroom fermentation.

 

The first Law of Chemistry is HEAT causes chemical change. Any time see that heat is being added to a process you know that chemical changes are super increased and naturally organic materials are being degragated, as well as life forms exterminated. By slowly heating up some water, alcohol or vodka (water & alcohol) to around 120F, turn off the heat and then adding mushrooms, closing the container and sealing it so NO air is allowed inside, is going to jump start the fermentation process. Agitate; shake, a few times a day and watch the liquid and mushrooms, repeat during the second day. If you are fortunate, there will be NOT be wild growth of foreign invaders = ugly looking, fuzzy growths. Filter through a coffee filter or just guzzle your batch down...not too much alcohol, okay! The active substances are going to be in the liquid and in the solid matter/mushrooms. What did you accomplish? Essentially the same as hot water extraction.

 

Hot water extraction is heating the matter for X amount of time to speed up the degregation of the cellulose, the cells of the mushroom containing the goodies you want from the mushroom. Sometimes the chemical changes from heating foods causes good things to happen and cause new biochemicals to be form. For instance; heating carrots and coconut oil and many of the vegetables we eat actually increases the "active" ingredients or changes some inactive stuff to an active form. In the case of Lion's Mane, apparently heating, as well as fermenting, plays the role of conversion biochemically but certainly exposes the biochemicals within the mushroom; liberating them. The patent speaks of enzyme (active protein that acts as a catalyst) production. It appears that by fermenting the Lion's Mane, naturally occurring enzyme(s) are produced/reproduced/activated? which certainly causes an increase in bio-availability, and can cause an increase in biochemical activity resulting in the synthesis of new goodies, maybe better goodies. Stuff that naturally are not occurring but that are superior and just plain good for you. Enzymes are often your best friend but heat will destroy their catalytic ability, usually food enzymes heated over 130F = No Good.  

 

I make Kefir from raw milk daily and drink it, sometimes I get carried away on some project (this forum?), look into the kitchen and shucks, I have curds and whey That is fermented milk similar to but superior of Yogurt. I run over, shake it up, strain it, add some blueberry or strawberries and chug it down. Tart. I make fermented grape juice/wine in a few days and fermented cabbage. These things are great for you, cheap as used jeans and easy as can be, although they take a few days normally. Not the Kefir though. A little tart but great for your health.  Off subject, right? Okay sorry. 

 

I do not agree with PLAYGROUND, because the three human studies as well as clinical studies (no double blind or maybe even no placebos used) has reveled results. Therefore the question of bio-availability through the gastrointestinal system including the liver, has been favorable. Usually mushroom poisoning is due to liver intoxication and/or pancreas.

 

BUSYBOY; thread master! What has happened since March 3rd? It has been 8 days, any update available from you.

 

REAL MUSHROOMS: I can't wait guy, the only way I can get stuff here is if someone brings it on a trip. I have a missionary friend coming at the end of the month and saw these shroom products from Ashland, Oregon. I AM NOT ADVERTISING! Whew! I thought better-than-nothing BUT yes it is rice substrate. Your Chinese guys are not going to have anything ready by then and Oriveda isn't either. I may try ordering from both sources in May and see if either arrive. The postal workers in Peru often feel they need my things more than me, so they help themselves to it. I have seen it improving here over the last 20 years but not quite there yet. Also I think the mentality goes like  "if your stupid enough to send it, you're stupid enough to lose it", well it has been 15 years since the SerPost official told me that to my face, in Spanish of course. It was followed up with the "stupid gringo". I also decided to get a few hundred plugs. So when those arrive, I will be off to the Andies with my screw gun in hand to inoculate some innocent hardwood stands. In six months I should see some positive results. "Grow my own" and be done with it. Chomp, chomp. I would think PLAYGROUND could do the same where he is located.

Edited by LongLife, 11 March 2016 - 10:32 PM.

[normalizing]

longlife, ferment it and consume it and report ktnx