20 replies to this topic

[Sith]

Hello everybody. 

 

So recently I became interested in low-protein and low-methionine, Low-Cysteine diets. I was wondering how everyone implements this in a semi-pescetarian diet with high salmon consumption. After researching the benefits of cysteine and methionine restriction, it seems like an interesting prospect but seems difficult to achieve since many health foods contain these amino acids. My questions are:

 

1. How is a diet of this nature achieved?

2. How much protein is considered low protein? 

3. How much cysteine and methionine is considered low?

 

I am an 18 year old male practising intermittent fasting. (if this makes any difference at all )

 

I am hoping this fantastic community can help answer my questions. Thanks. 

 

[misterE]

The answer to your question would be to swap animal-protein for plant-protein. Eat beans, grains, potatoes, vegetables and fruits as the main source of calories and you will automatically lower the methionine/cysteine levels without ever becoming hungry or deficient.

[niner]

It's hard to construct a low Met, low Cys diet.  You might want to look at this thread about Glycine.  Glycine supplementation can help to metabolize Met, so it sort of acts like a Met restriction mimetic.

[misterE]

It's hard to construct a low Met, low Cys diet.  You might want to look at this thread about Glycine.  Glycine supplementation can help to metabolize Met, so it sort of acts like a Met restriction mimetic.

 

That is also true. I think the important thing to remember is to eat a high ratio of glycine to methionine. Plant-proteins naturally have this ratio in place. The only animal-protein that has a high ratio of glycine to methionine would be gelatin, as I am sure you already knew that, but perhaps Sith didn't, hence my mentioning of it.

 

Another good way to lower methionine/cysteine would be to consume a carbohydrate-based diet; pasta, potatoes, rice, in place of the popular high-protein/meat-based diets that Americans and other developed countries prefer to eat.

Edited by misterE, 31 December 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[Sith]

 

It's hard to construct a low Met, low Cys diet.  You might want to look at this thread about Glycine.  Glycine supplementation can help to metabolize Met, so it sort of acts like a Met restriction mimetic.

 

That is also true. I think the important thing to remember is to eat a high ratio of glycine to methionine. Plant-proteins naturally have this ratio in place. The only animal-protein that has a high ratio of glycine to methionine would be gelatin, as I am sure you already knew that, but perhaps Sith didn't, hence my mentioning of it.

 

Another good way to lower methionine/cysteine would be to consume a carbohydrate-based diet; pasta, potatoes, rice, in place of the popular high-protein/meat-based diets that Americans and other developed countries prefer to eat.

 

 

Thank you for this information! It is very useful. Mister E, I do appreciate the plant based diet. My current diet does have a fair amount of plant based food and protein but I also consume a lot of fish that also tends to be high in methionine and cysteine, so I may consider supplementation. 

[misterE]

 

 

but I also consume a lot of fish that also tends to be high in methionine and cysteine

 

 

The only benefit I see in fish is the omega-3 content; there is really no need to eat fish other than that. I consider fish a double-edge sword. It contains omega-3 fats which combats (in my opinion) the number one dietary health issue; the accumulation of arachidonic-acid in the tissues, but it also contains high levels of dioxins and heavy-metals, which have very scary effects. Lowering the amount of linoleic-acid (found in vegetable-oils, nuts/seeds/avocadoes, corn, chickpeas and soybeans), enhances the conversion of linolenic-acid into the long-chain omega-3 fats (EPA and DHA) found in fish-oils... without the contamination issue.

 

 

 

 
 

[Sith]

Can I just ask, how can I supplement with very high doses of glycine? Is there a brand of supplement with such high doses?

[misterE]

Can I just ask, how can I supplement with very high doses of glycine? Is there a brand of supplement with such high doses?

 

Gelatin. It is extremely cheap and you can find it at any grocery-store (next to the jello).

[Sith]

 

Can I just ask, how can I supplement with very high doses of glycine? Is there a brand of supplement with such high doses?

 

Gelatin. It is extremely cheap and you can find it at any grocery-store (next to the jello).

 

 

Thank you! Is that still healthy though? 

 

I have always had the thought Gelatin was unhealthy.

[Turnbuckle]

Can I just ask, how can I supplement with very high doses of glycine? Is there a brand of supplement with such high doses?

 

Glycine powder is very cheap--about $13/pound from Amazon.

[Sith]

 

Can I just ask, how can I supplement with very high doses of glycine? Is there a brand of supplement with such high doses?

 

Glycine powder is very cheap--about $13/pound from Amazon.

 

 

Oh fantastic! What is the optimum intake to allow Methionine metabolism? 

[Adam Karlovsky]

I don't think it's hard to eat a methionine restricted diet, even including fatty fish. Consider this: if it's not maximally low in methionine because of the fish, the benefits of fatty fish consumption tend to outweigh the detriment of it's methionine content.

And the benefits of fatty fish go beyond the fish oil content, too. We do not see any evidence that fish oil capsules have the same benefits as the same amount of fish oil from fatty fish. Same with flax seeds and flax oil... its just not the same. Not eating fatty fish and you're (probabilistically) missing out on several years of life.

The main hurdle is finding fish that is very low in mercury, and low in dioxins. The higher the mercury content, the lower the benefits become and if there's enough mercury then it is plain bad for you. I am lucky, here in Australia we have low mercury fatty fish cheap and available, but you will need to do the research for you own country.

I think, optimally, eat low mercury/dioxin fatty fish 3x per week, moderate protein vegan diet for the rest. And don't skip the nuts and seeds.

[Sith]

I don't think it's hard to eat a methionine restricted diet, even including fatty fish. Consider this: if it's not maximally low in methionine because of the fish, the benefits of fatty fish consumption tend to outweigh the detriment of it's methionine content.

And the benefits of fatty fish go beyond the fish oil content, too. We do not see any evidence that fish oil capsules have the same benefits as the same amount of fish oil from fatty fish. Same with flax seeds and flax oil... its just not the same. Not eating fatty fish and you're (probabilistically) missing out on several years of life.

The main hurdle is finding fish that is very low in mercury, and low in dioxins. The higher the mercury content, the lower the benefits become and if there's enough mercury then it is plain bad for you. I am lucky, here in Australia we have low mercury fatty fish cheap and available, but you will need to do the research for you own country.

I think, optimally, eat low mercury/dioxin fatty fish 3x per week, moderate protein vegan diet for the rest. And don't skip the nuts and seeds.

 

Thank you! I appreciate this. I really do believe that fatty fish is perhaps one of the healthiest foods sources on the planet. It really shouldn't be skipped. the methionine content was worrying but your post has made it clear... Thank you! 

[Adam Karlovsky]

Here is a sample "low methionine diet" with a methionine intake of ~1300mg and cysteine intake of ~1200mg. I think the average methionine intake is about 2100mg/day and the lowest quartile of intakes are <1340mg, so this sample is not super low, but it's definitely low. 

http://nutritiondata...ecipe/3738040/2

If you decided you needed more protein, lets say for body building purposes, you could add a pea protein, which has the lowest methionine content out of all protein powders I am aware of, to a fruit smoothie or something like that. If you need more energy because you are active just add carbs/fats from plants like fruit, nuts seeds, or maybe add some extra olive oil to your salads or coconut oil to your cooking.

 

I am sure if you really tried you could push the methionine+cysteine lower, but maybe a better idea is to start alternate day fasting a week or two each month, or do a long (2+ day) fast every few months. Otherwise maybe supplement glycine? If anyone looks at the diet and thinks "oh it's low in X or Y"... well a real life diet has variety (e.g. oysters for zinc instead of mackerel) so it's not a problem inherent to this style of diet.

[phix]

If you decided you needed more protein, lets say for body building purposes, you could add a pea protein, which has the lowest methionine content out of all protein powders I am aware of, to a fruit smoothie or something like that. If you need more energy because you are active just add carbs/fats from plants like fruit, nuts seeds, or maybe add some extra olive oil to your salads or coconut oil to your cooking.

 

 

I substitute hydrolyzed collagen for some of the whey powder in my smoothies. The former has glycine:methionine and glycine:cystine ratios of 29:1 and 290:1 respectively. 

[Adam Karlovsky]

What is more important? The relative intakes, or the absolute intakes for meth/cyst? My educated guess would be that they're both important and you don't want a low glycine intake, but absolute intakes of meth/cyst are more important.

I wouldn't touch whey if I had access to pea, because whey has twice as much meth/cyst and half as much glycine as pea... have a look, yourself!

https://docs.google....4ra6Mh93m4rmac/

[Skyguy2005]

Surely there's only so low U want to go... too low methionine hurts your liver health, right? 

 

I think rice, pea, dark chocolate, all nuts except brazil nuts, pretty much all beans, pretty much all carbs, are low met. In practice mushrooms are low met. 

 

The only vegan foods high in met are brazil nuts, and some seeds. Also some things like wheat pasta are somewhat higher than e.g. buckwheat. 

 

For me I pretty much do this and say hey, I'm sort of MetR. If that's not good enough, then watch me chug this Ginkgo Biloba + Red Reishi tea! 

 

 

[Skyguy2005]

Also, any nut has got to be decent for not eating too much methionine (except Brazils). Cashews have like 0.36g per 100g, so not that low, but when you consider  they provide 590 calories, that really isn't that bad. Since this is longecity, here's a picture of the oldest Cashew nut tree in the world (over 1000 years old). Pretty cool huh? 

 

[marcobjj]

you can take BCAA (branched chain amino acid) supplements if you want a non-animal/non-methionine source and at the same time want to build muscle.

Edited by marcobjj, 13 March 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[genereader]

you can take BCAA (branched chain amino acid) supplements if you want a non-animal/non-methionine source and at the same time want to build muscle.

 

But use of BCAA can contribute to depression and lack of motivation. 

 

"BCAA reduced brain tryptophan and tyrosine concentrations, and serotonin and catecholamine synthesis." http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23904096

[marcobjj]

" This latter effect in humans is disputed."

 

BCAA are essential aminoacids, so I don't believe its harmful to humans. THey are also present in almost all forms of protein, even vegan protein. BCAA supplements are 3 isolated AA, Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine. So it's a way to build your muscles and bypass methionine intake at the same time.

 

https://examine.com/...in-amino-acids/

Edited by marcobjj, 26 March 2016 - 07:06 AM.