21 replies to this topic

[iseethelight]

When I take zinc, I feel good, high libido and energy to get stuff done but I have a hard time accessing verbal memory. Things such names of places and people, words become a challenge to recall quicklt. My vocabulary literally gets cut in half.

Is this zinc's antagonistic effect on GABA causing this? I also stomach butterflies with zinc.

[Kinesis]

Quite probably placebo, unless you are just taking too much zinc or in a toxic form. You are always getting zinc, or you will get sick and die - zinc is an essential nutrient normally present in the human diet. Most people can easily handle supplementation around 30-45 mg/d or more (that much is in many multis); if that much bothers you try reducing it to 15.

[sativa]

Zinc has dopamine properties (acts like a DRI I believe) and also is an NMDA antagonist which is likely what contributes to your verbal memory issues.

[Blackkzeus]

Hmm zinc does the opposite for me. Increases my verbal ability a little bit by expanding my ability to recall words. But usually I really struggle with verbal fluency. Like I forget words all the time and even have a hard time completing a sentence lol. I think it's due to low gaba. Whenever I drink alcohol my verbal fluency sky rockets.

Zinc may somehow be lowering your gaba levels. But then again I don't think gaba is the only nt responsible for verbal fluency. I know dopamine and acetylcholine def play a role.

[sativa]

But usually I really struggle with verbal fluency. Like I forget words all the time and even have a hard time completing a sentence lol. I think it's due to low gaba. Whenever I drink alcohol my verbal fluency sky rockets.

Have you ever tried GABA plants and supplements? Theanine unregulates GABAb and also has NMDA antagonist properties. Ethanol is a GABA agonist and NMDA antagonist.

Also, lemon balm is a GABA transaminase inhibitor resulting in more GABA being present.

Would be interesting to see what effect these have on your verbal fluency.

[dankis]

When I take zinc, I feel good, high libido and energy to get stuff done but I have a hard time accessing verbal memory. Things such names of places and people, words become a challenge to recall quicklt. My vocabulary literally gets cut in half.

Unfortunately zinc has similar effect on me. Zinc is NMDA inhibitor and has pro-serotonin effects.

I would advise you to check if other serotoninergics or anti-glutaminergics have similar effects on you.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19150479

The involvement of serotonergic system in the antidepressant effect of zinc in the forced swim test.

 

 

(...)Moreover, while the antidepressant-like effect of zinc (5 mg/kg) in the FST was significantly blocked by pretreatment with inhibitor of serotonin synthesis, p-chlorophenylalanine (pCPA, 3x200 mg/kg), 5HT-2(A/C) receptor antagonist, ritanserin (4 mg/kg) or 5HT-1A receptor antagonist, WAY 1006335 (0.1 mg/kg)

Edited by dankis, 19 April 2016 - 09:30 PM.

[YOLF]

Zinc is supposed to be kept in a particular balance (I don't recall what that is though, I think it's 3:1 or 1:3....) with copper. Higher doses of zinc will also affect calcium metabolism and may drive deficiencies depending on how much you take and how much Ca that you use. D3 and K2 can also sequester away all of your Ca, and there's some others that do. Ca channels in the brain are important.

[iseethelight]

 

When I take zinc, I feel good, high libido and energy to get stuff done but I have a hard time accessing verbal memory. Things such names of places and people, words become a challenge to recall quicklt. My vocabulary literally gets cut in half.

Unfortunately zinc has similar effect on me. Zinc is NMDA inhibitor and has pro-serotonin effects.

I would advise you to check if other serotoninergics or anti-glutaminergics have similar effects on you.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19150479

The involvement of serotonergic system in the antidepressant effect of zinc in the forced swim test.

 

 

(...)Moreover, while the antidepressant-like effect of zinc (5 mg/kg) in the FST was significantly blocked by pretreatment with inhibitor of serotonin synthesis, p-chlorophenylalanine (pCPA, 3x200 mg/kg), 5HT-2(A/C) receptor antagonist, ritanserin (4 mg/kg) or 5HT-1A receptor antagonist, WAY 1006335 (0.1 mg/kg)

 

I can't take any serotonin supps. Both 5htp and tryptophan have me laying in bed sick as a dog within a day. But this is a totally different feeling and not related to the zinc issue. I spent a few hours researching this today and I think my issue is that zinc might be pushing my histamine over the limit.  Too much histamine inhibits memory. 

[pamojja]

Zinc is supposed to be kept in a particular balance (I don't recall what that is though, I think it's 3:1 or 1:3....) with copper.

 

Once read it's 10:1. In my case going to 60 mg/d of zinc without balancing with some copper (~2 mg/d) gave me headaches. But then blood tests of copper got too high and zinc too low, and I reduced both a bit. Which improved my blood tests again.

 

In total (during the last 7 years) I get zinc about 13 mg from diet and 42 mg from supplements. Copper 4.2 mg from diet and 1.3 mg from supplements. That's indeed 55:5.5 or a 10:1 total ratio.

 

 

Higher doses of zinc will also affect calcium metabolism and may drive deficiencies depending on how much you take and how much Ca that you use. D3 and K2 can also sequester away all of your Ca, and there's some others that do. Ca channels in the brain are important.

 

With all the zinc I took, and 7.700 IU of Vitamin D3 to get my 25(OH)D to 60 ng/ml, plus in average 330 mcg of K2-mk7 + 10 mg K2-mk4 per day - my calcium serum and hair tissue levels normalized from consistently too low. With in average 1 g of calcium from diet and 600 mg from supplements.
 

One big confounder in all of this is a magnesium deficiency I haven't overcome yet with 600 mg from diet and 1.4 g from supplements.

Edited by pamojja, 20 April 2016 - 10:52 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Zinc is associated with synaptic function, especially in the hippocampus, but high doses of zinc paradoxically cause a zinc deficiency there, at least in mice--

 

Zinc ions highly concentrate in hippocampus and play a key role in modulating spatial learning and memory. At a time when dietary fortification and supplementation of zinc have increased the zinc consuming level especially in the youth, the toxicity of zinc overdose on brain function was underestimated. In the present study, weaning ICR mice were given water supplemented with 15 ppm Zn (low dose), 60 ppm Zn (high dose) or normal lab water for 3 months, the behavior and brain zinc homeostasis were tested. Mice fed high dose of zinc showed hippocampus-dependent memory impairment. Unexpectedly, zinc deficiency, but not zinc overload was observed in hippocampus, especially in the mossy fiber-CA3 pyramid synapse. The expression levels of learning and memory related receptors and synaptic proteins such as NMDA-NR2A, NR2B, AMPA-GluR1, PSD-93 and PSD-95 were significantly decreased in hippocampus, with significant loss of dendritic spines. In keeping with these findings, high dose intake of zinc resulted in decreased hippocampal BDNF level and TrkB neurotrophic signaling. At last, increasing the brain zinc level directly by brain zinc injection induced BDNF expression, which was reversed by zinc chelating in vivo. These results indicate that zinc plays an important role in hippocampus-dependent learning and memory and BDNF expression, high dose supplementation of zinc induces specific zinc deficiency in hippocampus, which further impair learning and memory due to decreased availability of synaptic zinc and BDNF deficit.

 

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0055384

 

 

 

BDNF = Brain-derived neurotrophic factor

[Blackkzeus]

But usually I really struggle with verbal fluency. Like I forget words all the time and even have a hard time completing a sentence lol. I think it's due to low gaba. Whenever I drink alcohol my verbal fluency sky rockets.

Have you ever tried GABA plants and supplements? Theanine unregulates GABAb and also has NMDA antagonist properties. Ethanol is a GABA agonist and NMDA antagonist.

Also, lemon balm is a GABA transaminase inhibitor resulting in more GABA being present.

Would be interesting to see what effect these have on your verbal fluency.

I definitely think gaba defiency is a culprit for my verbal fluency issues. I've taken gotu kola before which increases an enzyme ( forget the name) that converts glutamate into gaba and I experienced an increase in verbal memory. I've tried Theanine and usually it helps me relax but the past two times it's given me intense anxiety. I'll look into lemon balm, thanks.

Sorry op for kinda hijacking your thread. I think the response before mine is very interesting though and maybe the main reason you're experiencing an deficit in verbal memory when you take zinc. You're probably just taking too much.

[Kinesis]

Some more info on zinc:

 

Taking large daily doses of zinc, for a short-term period of time, may be of benefit for men with certain health conditions. According to MayoClinic.com, taking 4.5 to 24 milligrams of zinc in lozenge form every 1 to 2 hours may help reduce symptoms of the common cold. Other high dosages of zinc used in research studies include 12 to 150 milligrams per day to improve immune function in elderly men, 66 milligrams of zinc to increase sperm counts in subfertile men and 220 milligrams of zinc daily for sexual dysfunction in men, reports MayoClinic.com. However, don’t take these high doses of zinc unless supervised by a medical professional, and avoid taking them longer than your doctor recommends.

 

The maximum safe daily intake for zinc is 40 milligrams per day for men, according to the Office of Dietary Supplements. Side effects from too much zinc include headaches, nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps and diarrhea.

 

http://healthyeating...-zinc-8314.html

 

 

Zinc is a nutritionally essential mineral needed for catalytic, structural, and regulatory functions in the body. 

 

The RDA for adult men and women is 11 mg/day and 8 mg/day of zinc, respectively.

 

Long-term consumption of zinc in excess of the tolerable upper intake level (40 mg/day for adults) can result in copper deficiency.
 

http://lpi.oregonsta...c/minerals/zinc

 

 

Zinc is one of the body's essential trace minerals. Although the body only needs small amounts of zinc, mild deficiency is not uncommon, according to the University of Maryland Medical Center. As with any other dietary supplement, zinc can cause unpleasant side effects when taken in high doses, so consult your doctor to determine the appropriate dosage for you.

 

Too much zinc can limit the absorption of copper, resulting in a copper deficiency. If you take a zinc supplement, your doctor might also recommend a copper supplement to prevent deficiency. According to the University of Maryland Medical Center, very high doses can decrease immunity, particularly in older adults, and increase the level of bad cholesterol in the blood. High zinc doses might also cause dizziness, fatigue, loss of muscle control, anemia, sweating, hallucinations and nausea.

 

http://www.livestron...mum-zinc-doses/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[YOLF]

Thanks for posting references!

[YOLF]

 

Zinc is supposed to be kept in a particular balance (I don't recall what that is though, I think it's 3:1 or 1:3....) with copper.

 

Once read it's 10:1. In my case going to 60 mg/d of zinc without balancing with some copper (~2 mg/d) gave me headaches. But then blood tests of copper got too high and zinc too low, and I reduced both a bit. Which improved my blood tests again.

 

In total (during the last 7 years) I get zinc about 13 mg from diet and 42 mg from supplements. Copper 4.2 mg from diet and 1.3 mg from supplements. That's indeed 55:5.5 or a 10:1 total ratio.

 

 

Higher doses of zinc will also affect calcium metabolism and may drive deficiencies depending on how much you take and how much Ca that you use. D3 and K2 can also sequester away all of your Ca, and there's some others that do. Ca channels in the brain are important.

 

With all the zinc I took, and 7.700 IU of Vitamin D3 to get my 25(OH)D to 60 ng/ml, plus in average 330 mcg of K2-mk7 + 10 mg K2-mk4 per day - my calcium serum and hair tissue levels normalized from consistently too low. With in average 1 g of calcium from diet and 600 mg from supplements.
 

One big confounder in all of this is a magnesium deficiency I haven't overcome yet with 600 mg from diet and 1.4 g from supplements.

 

 

Sounds like you've got some metabolic problems, over consumption of certain things is a hallmark sign of some diseases, or it could be compromised absorption from food allergies or some kind of digestive problem. 

 

What kind of Mg supplement are you taking? Elemental supplements can be difficult to absorb, and some forms have very low bioavailability. I've heard taking Hyaluronic Acid can increase nutrient absorption. Perhaps fiber will prevent you from losing too much of your minerals to urine as it could slow the initial absorption if that's the problem. Not sure which fiber if any would be good for that, but I know it can slow absorption of sugars.

[pamojja]

Sounds like you've got some metabolic problems, over consumption of certain things is a hallmark sign of some diseases, or it could be compromised absorption from food allergies or some kind of digestive problem. 
 
What kind of Mg supplement are you taking? Elemental supplements can be difficult to absorb, and some forms have very low bioavailability. I've heard taking Hyaluronic Acid can increase nutrient absorption. Perhaps fiber will prevent you from losing too much of your minerals to urine as it could slow the initial absorption if that's the problem. Not sure which fiber if any would be good for that, but I know it can slow absorption of sugars.

 
Yea. IgE allergies to everything tested: Egg, soy and milk protein, cod, wheat and peanut.
 
Started by trying every of the better bioavailable magnesium forms: citrate, glycinate, malate, taurate, ascorbate, threonate... for 3 years. Then I read niners post here:
 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=566410

 

It's a myth that mag oxide is poorly absorbed. The source of the myth was a 2001 paper by Firoz and Graber, which used very short-term urine collection, and came to the erroneous conclusion that the fractional absorption of the oxide form was 4%. Coudray et al. in 2005 published a study that used long term collection, and found that the oxide bioavailability was quite good. Better even than some of the organic forms. Gluconate was the best, in their study. Looking at Plasma Mg, RBC Mg, and Bone Mg at the end of the experiment, no significant difference was found from any form. The Coudray paper has free text, but the headings are buggy in their HTML tables, so be sure to take note of that if you read it. This post may also be interesting.

 

And since then experimented with the cheap Mg oxide form too. Indeed, as long as I get a certain amount of elemental magnesium I remained free from pain-full muscle cramps. And the form only makes a difference in expenses.

 

I've been on a moderately low carb diet (~70 g/d non-fiber carbs), plus an additional 50 g of fibers from food.

 

Can't find anything on hyaluronic acid and better absorbtion, any links?

Edited by pamojja, 20 April 2016 - 09:19 PM.

[sativa]

Regarding improving nutrient absorption, taurine might be beneficial:

...
In the literature taurine is characterized as a non-specific growth or blood clotting factor, an antioxidant, a membrane protector, or a regulator of calcium ion homeostasis, just as vitamins A, D, E, F, and K are similarly characterized.

On the basis of recent finding concerning the relationship between taurine and the aldehyde of vitamin A-retinal (Petrosian and Haroutounian, 1988, 1998; Petrosian et al., 1996), as well as on the basis of data from the literature, we now suggest a hypothesis that taurine promotes the bioavailability of the lipid soluble vitamins A, D, E, K, and F, probably by forming different types of water soluble, easily hydrolyzable complexes.

It is quite possible that the ability of taurine to convert lipids and lipid soluble substances into a water soluble state is the key to understanding the unusually wide diversity of biological phenomena associated with taurine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11128549

Something interesting is the potential link between food allergies and adrenal gland health. See http://www.adrenalfa...-allergies.html

Edited by sativa, 20 April 2016 - 09:41 PM.

[YOLF]

 

Sounds like you've got some metabolic problems, over consumption of certain things is a hallmark sign of some diseases, or it could be compromised absorption from food allergies or some kind of digestive problem. 
 
What kind of Mg supplement are you taking? Elemental supplements can be difficult to absorb, and some forms have very low bioavailability. I've heard taking Hyaluronic Acid can increase nutrient absorption. Perhaps fiber will prevent you from losing too much of your minerals to urine as it could slow the initial absorption if that's the problem. Not sure which fiber if any would be good for that, but I know it can slow absorption of sugars.

 
Yea. IgE allergies to everything tested: Egg, soy and milk protein, cod, wheat and peanut.
 
Started by trying every of the better bioavailable magnesium forms: citrate, glycinate, malate, taurate, ascorbate, threonate... for 3 years. Then I read niners post here:
 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=566410

 

It's a myth that mag oxide is poorly absorbed. The source of the myth was a 2001 paper by Firoz and Graber, which used very short-term urine collection, and came to the erroneous conclusion that the fractional absorption of the oxide form was 4%. Coudray et al. in 2005 published a study that used long term collection, and found that the oxide bioavailability was quite good. Better even than some of the organic forms. Gluconate was the best, in their study. Looking at Plasma Mg, RBC Mg, and Bone Mg at the end of the experiment, no significant difference was found from any form. The Coudray paper has free text, but the headings are buggy in their HTML tables, so be sure to take note of that if you read it. This post may also be interesting.

 

And since then experimented with the cheap Mg oxide form too. Indeed, as long as I get a certain amount of elemental magnesium I remained free from pain-full muscle cramps. And the form only makes a difference in expenses.

 

I've been on a moderately low carb diet (~70 g/d non-fiber carbs), plus an additional 50 g of fibers from food.

 

Can't find anything on hyaluronic acid and better absorbtion, any links?

 

 

Well, the different forms of magnesium also deliver various proteins and other acids to targetted tissues and determine where in the body the the stuff will end up. So Mg Taurate will probably be better for Liver and Kidneys, it also determines what channel the mineral will be absorbed into.

 

As for the Hyaluronic Acid, the absorption effects will probably come from skin care studies, but it works similar to creatine and taurine in that it causes cells to absorb more water and it's also a structural component. Even if it isn't absorbed in the GI tract, it will still form a gel and may inhibit inflammation or act as a lubricant to speed healing by creating a barrier? I think I read somewhere that the stomach produces it naturally for this purpose but that aging and other factors such as your allergies might impair the natural production of it. Chitosan may also have similar properties. I've noted broad spectrum benefits from both.

[YOLF]

Regarding improving nutrient absorption, taurine might be beneficial:
 

...
In the literature taurine is characterized as a non-specific growth or blood clotting factor, an antioxidant, a membrane protector, or a regulator of calcium ion homeostasis, just as vitamins A, D, E, F, and K are similarly characterized.

On the basis of recent finding concerning the relationship between taurine and the aldehyde of vitamin A-retinal (Petrosian and Haroutounian, 1988, 1998; Petrosian et al., 1996), as well as on the basis of data from the literature, we now suggest a hypothesis that taurine promotes the bioavailability of the lipid soluble vitamins A, D, E, K, and F, probably by forming different types of water soluble, easily hydrolyzable complexes.

It is quite possible that the ability of taurine to convert lipids and lipid soluble substances into a water soluble state is the key to understanding the unusually wide diversity of biological phenomena associated with taurine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11128549

Something interesting is the potential link between food allergies and adrenal gland health. See http://www.adrenalfa...-allergies.html

 

 

I did note early on when I first started taking p-synephrine, an adrenaline precursor or adrenergic supplement, that my digestion seemed to improve. Bioperine also seemed to help as well. I was an undiagnosed celiac until my 30s and these were my go to supplements for the symptoms along with ginger, turmeric, garlic, and onion powder (about 2-3g of each twice daily) until that time.

[iseethelight]

Zinc has dopamine properties (acts like a DRI I believe) and also is an NMDA antagonist which is likely what contributes to your verbal memory issues.

 

 

 

When I take zinc, I feel good, high libido and energy to get stuff done but I have a hard time accessing verbal memory. Things such names of places and people, words become a challenge to recall quicklt. My vocabulary literally gets cut in half.

Unfortunately zinc has similar effect on me. Zinc is NMDA inhibitor and has pro-serotonin effects.

I would advise you to check if other serotoninergics or anti-glutaminergics have similar effects on you.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19150479

The involvement of serotonergic system in the antidepressant effect of zinc in the forced swim test.

 

 

(...)Moreover, while the antidepressant-like effect of zinc (5 mg/kg) in the FST was significantly blocked by pretreatment with inhibitor of serotonin synthesis, p-chlorophenylalanine (pCPA, 3x200 mg/kg), 5HT-2(A/C) receptor antagonist, ritanserin (4 mg/kg) or 5HT-1A receptor antagonist, WAY 1006335 (0.1 mg/kg)

 

 

I decided to restart zinc again and low and behold, same result. I think you two got my attention with the nmda inhibition, dopamine reuptake inhibition and the serotoninergic effects. Bump. 

[sativa]

What dose of zinc are you having? Perhaps reducing the dose might help. I have 15mg before breakfast.

It's best to have it with food.

[gamesguru]

zinc inhibits glutamate NMDA currents, which can antagonize long-term potentiation. localized inhibitory effects on other NTs may also factor into attentional and motivational side effects (the same reasons for its beneficial antidepressive effect). hormones may be indirectly invovled. additionally, zinc blocks cAMP and adenylyl cyclase signalling, and lessens fructose and peptide metabolism. taken together, these undesirable side effects suggest an upper limit, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10mg

[Mr Serendipity]

I've been messing with zinc the past week or so.

 

When I experimented with a higher dose initially, I noticed one day I couldn't process information well. Like I'm pretty sure my wife was speaking to me, and even though I was hearing the words, I couldn't understand them, as if I couldn't follow the thought of what she was trying to say. Also driving felt a bit weird that day, like not good attention, I felt like I couldn't do it well (even though I apparently did fine). I was taking zinc picolinate back then, so that form might have something to do with it.

 

But the other day I had a surreal zen experience while driving, and that was testing other forms of zinc. 

 

And right now, I had a couple of earlier doses, and one later dose, and even writing this, I don't feel all quite here. Like my processing information is impaired.

 

So I think it is the zinc, and there is a fine line dose for me between being with it and calm, even possibly surreally zen, and having a hard time processing information.