99 replies to this topic

[tracer]

Hi there guys...

I find myself wondering if there are any substances or techniques which will lead to permanent enhancements to intelligence, even when off nootropics. I have a pet theory that if a neuro-plastic state is induced through various substances and "training" is performed (stenuous mental activity, brain entrainment, CET, learning new skills, languages, etc) it will lead to a permanent increase in intelligence and decrease the time it takes to become proficient in the "training".

I'm thinking of things like:

1. Idebenone, Hydergine for NGF.
2. GH/IGF1 for increased proliferation/regeneration.
3. Prostaglandin analogues.
4. SSRIs for stimulation of neurogenesis in the Hippocampus.

Any one with any ideas - let's throw this one around a bit.

Tracer

Edited by tracer, 21 December 2005 - 04:34 PM.

[yopomug]

Stay away from the SSRIs. If you're not depressed, they represent too much of a risk to a person who is interested in a perfect brain. Check out the yahoo group "SSRI sex" for first-hand reports on the host of bizarre side-effects SSRIs are capable of.

Thing about NGF, neurons seem to need a certain level of it not just in order to grow, but to surivive.

[Shepard]

I had thought about this before, and my ideas were to try (probably cyclical) the following:

Intermittent fasting for BDNF and GH/IGF-1
Royal Jelly for GDNF
Hydergine/Idebenone/Alcar-arginate/Ashwaganda for NGF

I've never got around to this, but it was just something I kicked around a few months ago.

[Elusive]

Yeah...looks like Vopomug is right on SSRI's. By the way why are you not happy with a regular relaxed adequate mind.. tracer? What is this cumpulsive drive to have super enhanced brain? Do you have intentions to join CIA or NASA?

I had a friend and she had a belief system that was quite passively destructive. She deep down felt inferior, felt she was not good enough and later she found out that she had a minor chemical imbalance as well, she was low on serotonin. That made her cumpulsive, agitated and demotivated always looking for the next high in any form

. Her psychologist prescribed Fish oil for 3 months along with a 100 IU of vitamin natural E. After two weeks her boold circulation got better and mood lifted up and she started to take classes in NLP, improved her self esteem and out-look on life, left all that wasting of time on forums looking for the NBSS "next best stupid stack".

Today she is a vice presedent at an HR company enjoying herself. She still takes her vitamins and fish oil 3 to 4 times a week, exercises and have no complains. That may be of some help to You sir

[tracer]

Vopomug: I do suffer from depression, and it's quite bad ATM. So the SSRIs are probably going to be a treatment of choice kindly sponsored by my medical aid scheme (health insurance).

Shepard: About the BDNF... hmmm.... gonna look into it. I was just going to inject the GH/IGF1 intra-venously. Royal jelly is a good one!

LesterLong: Thanks for the advice, but... I don't think that anything is wrong with me per se, besides the fact that I spent most of my adolescent and adult life careening from one disasterous relationship to the next, and I was born to a fairly dysfunctional family (but then aren't we all??)... It also bears mention that I was breast-fed, which depending on whether your'e considering pysiological or psychological development could be good or bad I guess.

As much as I am happy for your friend, "passive destructiveness" isn't really my problem. Plus theres already lot's of omega 3's in my diet. Eat lots of fish and supplement with fish oil, flax oil, borage oil and EPO.

Like many of the people here, I'm already Mensa/Golden Key/Geeks-R-Us material, but I don't really want their affirmation. I'm not looking for a high, although I do drive rather fast...

I guess there are things that I want out of life that my genetics (or gene transcription) just didn't give me - the ability to bench-press a small family sedan, for instance. I've done steroids in the past, and I am confident that they were both safe and very useful, as I am now unnaturally strong for my small size (and before you go all Freudian on me, that's 6ft tall 180 pounds, exact average - just small next to the bodybuilders who train at my gym). This is the same thing - I want to be able to do things outside of my "gifts"... I just need a little chemical help to do it.

To me that's quality of life, to be able to grow and do new things...

Or maybe that's thrill seeking and I'm border-line psychotic.

Any psycholigists in the house?

Secondly, why even take nootropics in the first place, if you have no desire to succeed, excel, esperience high QoL, defy ageing, etc?

Lastly, I may not ever do this stuff... I just want to talk it through.

[mitkat]

This is the most exciting thing I've read in a while :D

What would you think of the memory-imprinting abilities of vasopressin/desmopressin used intermittently?

[FunkOdyssey]

Something interesting I found:

Pregnenolone sulfate enhances neurogenesis and PSA-NCAM in young and aged hippocampus.

Mayo W, Lemaire V, Malaterre J, Rodriguez JJ, Cayre M, Stewart MG, Kharouby M, Rougon G, Le Moal M, Piazza PV, Abrous DN.

Laboratoire de Psychobiologie des Comportements Adaptatifs, INSERM U588, Domaine de Carreire, Rue Camille Saint-Saens, 33077 Bordeaux, France.

Age-dependent cognitive impairments have been correlated with functional and structural modifications in the hippocampal formation. In particular, the brain endogenous steroid pregnenolone-sulfate (Preg-S) is a cognitive enhancer whose hippocampal levels have been linked physiologically to cognitive performance in senescent animals. However, the mechanism of its actions remains unknown. Because neurogenesis is sensitive to hormonal influences, we examined the effect of Preg-S on neurogenesis, a novel form of plasticity, in young and old rats. We demonstrate that in vivo infusion of Preg-S stimulates neurogenesis and the expression of the polysialylated forms of NCAM, PSA-NCAM, in the dentate gyrus of 3- and 20-month-old rats. These influences on hippocampal plasticity are mediated by the modulation of the gamma-aminobutyric acid receptor complex A (GABA(A)) receptors present on hippocampal neuroblasts. In vitro, Preg-S stimulates the division of adult-derived spheres suggesting a direct influence on progenitors. These data provide evidence that neurosteroids represent one of the local secreted signals controlling hippocampal neurogenesis. Thus, therapies which stimulate neurosteroidogenesis could preserve hippocampal plasticity and prevent the appearance of age-related cognitive disturbances.

[purerealm]

Does the tired feeling that comes with SSRI ever go away? I think that's always been my biggest problem with them. I already usually have low energy levels, and yesterday I took a 10 mg lexapro, and I felt like I was going to pass out a few hours later.

[enlil]

I have a pet theory that if a neuro-plastic state is induced through various substances and "training" is performed (stenuous mental activity, brain entrainment, CET, learning new skills, languages, etc) it will lead to a permanent increase in intelligence and decrease the time it takes to become proficient in the "training".

I'm thinking of things like:

1. Idebenone, Hydergine for NGF.
2. GH/IGF1 for increased proliferation/regeneration.
3. Prostaglandin analogues.
4. SSRIs for stimulation of neurogenesis in the Hippocampus.

Any one with any ideas - let's throw this one around a bit.

Tracer

Like your idea, and have guinea-pigged this one on myself in a fairly unstructured fashion. If you'd be interested in doing this in a more organized test, I would be willing to help (and be a volunteer). We could generate some fairly useful anecdotal evidence...

It would probably work best if several different types of "training" skills were selected from different categories of capacities (i.e. something like juggling + a balange exercise for coordination, some purely brain-oriented task like Su Doku or logic puzzles, a couple of things for spatial reasoning,, couple for linguistic ability, etc).

Another idea: what about combining the things you have mentioned with practices that are meta-level support for brain function (that is, not support for a specific task, but for tasks in general). I don't know if you have heard of "Image Streaming" by Win Wenger, but it is a technique that works on "pole-bridging" - basically an exercise that forces that different hemispheres of the brain to work together, thus forging new cross-brain connections. Wenger originally published this in a fairly scientific study of intelligence increasing (called How to Increase Your Intelligence, now unfortunately out of print) and has re-published it under The Einstein Factor. The first book is much better (less pps-culture appeal), containing more raw data and anectoted research, and makes the claim that subjects averaged a quarter of point increase in IQ for every hour they did the practice. If you can find a copy of the first book, there are many other practices that are described and fairly well documented.

Again, I'd be interested in participating in any kind of impromptu group study of the effects of brain enhancing supplements/drugs/practices on training and learning. In fact, it seems like the type of thing that this is the perfect venue for.

[tracer]

Hmmm... Many thanks for the input people...

And many thanks for the lack of comment on my "introspective" above.

FunkOdyssey - thanks for the tip on the Pregenolone. I'm gonna look into it. It reminds me of a paper I read a while ago on the effect of Testosterone, Nandrolone and Estrogen on neurogenesis... perhaps there is value in concurrent steroid/cortico-steroid manipulation. Also, Trenbolone has been shown to sensitise certain tissues to the effects of IGF1. I wonder if it's effects exend to neural tissues and the brain. If it does so, but its effects do not extend to smooth muscle, then it is possibly a useful adjunct to an IGF-based protocol, since a lower dose may be used, which in turn will decrease the likelihood of side-effects like carpal-tunnel syndrome, intestinal growth, body-hair growth and cancer. NOTE TO SELF - Do some research.

About the SSRIs... I have used reductil previously and noted no significant anti-depressant or drowsiness effect. I used it specifically because I was crap at remembering directions and always got lost. 6 weeks later, I was not so crap. Go figure.

enlil: I greatly appreciate your offer of support and your suggestions. The problem is that this stuff will be ridiculously expensive. I have already laid out $500 for supp-grade nootropics (to start out with). I estimate that the IGF1 will cost another $500, and GH another $500. Then there's the other noots like deprenyl, hupa, etc which I'd like to play with. Prostaglandin analogues would run in at about $200 or so, but I have yet to figure out a dosage protocol which will alleviate the rather heavy side effects of these drugs. Lastly I have already forked out $200 for brain entrainment software. By no means do I wish to discourage your participation in our little experiment, I just want to make you aware that it's going to be expensive.

About the Image Streaming - yes, I'be heard about it... I've also done a little reading into methods used to train athletes, racecar drivers, fighter pilots, etc. Lots of interesting stuff to integrate left and right hemispheres... it's just a question of what to do? My research has barely scratched the surface, and my exposure to sterid pharmacology and the science and practice of strength development has shown me that humility is required in such an endeavour. I am at least a year (more like two) away from doing anything along these lines. For now I'm just learning the ropes of nootropic pharmacology and neurochemistry. Anyway, long story short - your tip on the book reference is a pointer in the right direction, and as such, is most appreciated. I will do my best to find the book and have a read.

In addition, I have had an interesting thought from the far fringes of credulity... what if it is possible to apply some of the documented paranormal training techniques to develop additional "abilities"? Thus far, I have found little that is concrete and convincing, and almost all of what I have found is completely anecdotal and a conflicting hodge-podge of hippie-science and bliend faith... some sources were seasoned a generous sprinkling of just-plain-dumb as well. Has anyone here had any experience or exposure to such techniques that they wouldn't mind sharing?

[psychenaut]

Funny you mention this! I blogged about this very subject:

"Persistance of Neuroplasticity. Nefiracetam, Tacrine (galantamine acts very similar to tacrine), Deprenyl.

The info below comes from an article on my Learn page from the American College of Neuropsychopharmacology.

This is some very heavy reading and offers additional interesting findings about racetams, in this case nefiracetam. I have found nefiracetam to be similar in effect to pramiracetam in many aspects.

Nutshell excerpt:
"Our observations are consistent with the idea that a chronic drug regimen or a complex environment induces a more robust memory pathway that can acquire and consolidate new information more efficiently. "

And they found persistance of benefits:
"moreover, that this benefit remains after drug withdrawal. "

Persistance is the holy grail, or at least a lot better than reverting to baseline after discontinuing supplements. Also good to see a connection to the non-toxic racetams which I have come to greatly appreciate for their subtle and wide ranging benefits.

Pete

(1/5/06 EDIT TO DETAIL MY TACRINE REFERENCE ABOVE)

Edited by psychenaut, 05 January 2006 - 04:27 PM.

[kerastasey]

Lastly I have already forked out $200 for brain entrainment software. 

What software is this?
I've been wondering what the best training software would be, and also whether certain 'boosted' forms of music would be beneficial, like the imusic from Volition.
Any suggestions?

[tracer]

psychenaut: thanks... I will read your article. Encouraging!

kerastasey: there's lots out there (just put "brain entrainment software" into google. I use neuro programer from Transparent corp. There are also several electro-cranial stiumulation units that you could buy that purport to do the same thing...

[goku]

I dunno about messing with IGF-1 levels. Although IGF-1 won't cause cancer it will certainly expedite cell proliferation so any potentail tumors (which we all pretty much have from cells with mangled DNA) could go into mitosis faster than the immune system could monitor. It's the same problem with IGF-1 for building muscle -- yuo can't specify skeletal muscle -- it builds your heart and smooth muscle too and everything else -- very dangerous IMO.

[tracer]

Yeah, goku. I'm aware of the risks of IGF1 use. However, I will be taking a couple of precautions:

1. Short bursts of cyclic use.
2. Low doses shot intra-venously. (<10mcg) 2x a day.
3. Anti-oxidants, etc.

[tracer]

Okay folks... first off, thnks for all the help and support on this thread. I think I've got enough of the puzzle together to try a basic and simple experiment. Not particularly expensive, no real exotic drugs etc. If anyone has any feedback, let me knwo and I'll update this post to reflect it where I agree and can afford it.

PII Protocol 1: The basics

Goal: To increase brain vascularity, coordination between hemispheres, attention span. Will also be dieting hard, and attempting to lose body fat.

Duration: 30 days

Training:

I will be using dive-reflex training 1 hour a day, every day for the first month. This should, if the theory is sound, cause an increase in brain vascularity and cappiliary density. This will be done first thing in the morning, in a fasted state, and followed by half-an hour of cardio, or when time is short, a 4 minute Tabata protocol... then shower and head to work.

During work, where applicable, brain entrainment in Attention/ADD mode. About (3x/day)

After work, an hour of weights 4 days a week, followed by an hour of image streaming.

Drugs and Supplements:

Creatine
Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL - 2000-3000mg/day

Oils
Cod Liver Oil - 15g/day
CLA - 3-5g/day
Flax oil, Evening Primrose oil to taste.

Nootropics - Comments welcome
Piracetam- 4800mg/day
Idebenone -150mg/day
Alpha GPC - 600mg/day
Choline Citrate - 3000-5000mg/day

Anarchy Stack
ALCAR - 3000mg/day
K-R-Alpha Lipolic Acid - 600mg/day
Biotin - 10mg/day
Green tea Extract - 5000mg/day

Pre-Cardio "Cutting" stack (only taken pre-cardio)
Salbutamol - 8mg/day
Chocamine - 1g/day
Caffeine - 100mg/day
Yohimbine HCL - 10mg/day

My Thoughts:

I figure increased circulation to the brain will increase the effect of everything that I do later on.

Hydergine and Vinpocetine for vasodilation? Will this help or hinder the dive-reflex training?

I wonder if I should add some supplement-grade N02 boosters like Arginine Alpha Keto-Glutarate to increase the effects of the Dive reflex training. Anyone with any thoughts on this?

Thinking of adding in low-dose PGF2 analogues... may increase the rate of change of the vascular system. Should help with fat loss.

Thinking of making myself play squash with my left hand for cardio purposes instead. I am right handed. Anyone think this will benefit.

[xanadu]

That is one heavy stack you got there. Have you been on it before or are you starting the whole thing at once? If so, you may find it more than you are comfortable with.

[lynx]

An hour of Image Streaming? That is quite a bit, you might be better of setting more modest goals in the beginning and doing 10 min IS / 10 min debriefing to start with.

[tracer]

xanadu: I've done the Creatine, Oils, Pre-Cardio stack and Anarchy Stack Concurrently. The Noots are new, but I'm on them now. Problem is, I also have some Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, etc... I'm just wondering what to do.

lynx: your'e probably right... I should have said that an hour is a bit of a "goal duration"... but I want to shoot for that. I was going to break it up into concurrent "blocks" though, with a glass of water inbetween or something.

[vegeto]

My Thoughts:

I figure increased circulation to the brain will increase the effect of everything that I do later on.

New here, and ^ are my thoughts exactly. I just started adding the herb 'Gotu Kola' to my stack. In the past, I was quite impressed with the permanent increased vascularity from stacking Gotu Kola and Di-Arginine-Malate. <---This combo worked well for weight training. That was my only good experience with 'nitrous oxide' products for weight training, and I have a feeling that adding Gotu Kola may have been a key factor. Gotu Kola is an Indian herb that has been shown effective in treating varicose veins in past clinical trials, not to mention other potential benefits.

My current setup;

2-4 grams Piracetem
2-3 grams Gotu Kola
2.5 grams American Ginseng
3.5 grams Asian (panax) Ginseng
500 mg Alpha-GPC
250 mg Green Tea Extract
500 mg Mucuna Pruniens extract
ZMA (as needed)
Meletonin (as needed)

[sfty] My goals are a little different than those of many of the people here, but they are similar enough that we may be able to share a little info. I think I'll stick around... maybe see what I can learn from you guys. [thumb]

[xanadu]

tracer, 3 grams of alcar a day is a whole lot. Add to that all the other noots and it should give you quite a bang. I found myself that the piracetam seemed to increace the effects of other things I was taking. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[nomi]

Nefiracetam is toxic to your man nuts

FYI

[nomi]

You will get smarter but at the price of having no balls.

[the big b]

I'm more interested in the techniques used to enhance the brain rather than the supplements. Do you have any more information the 'brain exercises' you'll be doing?

[tracer]

Funny you mention this! I blogged about this very subject:

"Persistance of Neuroplasticity. Nefiracetam, Tacrine (galantamine acts very similar to tacrine), Deprenyl.

The info below comes from an article on my Learn page from the American College of Neuropsychopharmacology.

This is some very heavy reading and offers additional interesting findings about racetams, in this case nefiracetam. I have found nefiracetam to be similar in effect to pramiracetam in many aspects.

Nutshell excerpt:
"Our observations are consistent with the idea that a chronic drug regimen or a complex environment induces a more robust memory pathway that can acquire and consolidate new information more efficiently. "

And they found persistance of benefits:
"moreover, that this benefit remains after drug withdrawal. "

Persistance is the holy grail, or at least a lot better than reverting to baseline after discontinuing supplements. Also good to see a connection to the non-toxic racetams which I have come to greatly appreciate for their subtle and wide ranging benefits.

Pete

(1/5/06 EDIT TO DETAIL MY TACRINE REFERENCE ABOVE)

Well Pete, your'e a wise man! I've just found the time to take a detailed read an cross-ref through the docs you linked in, and I take heart from the fact that this has been investigated. Many thanks for your post!

It also taught me that Neuroplastic is one word, and is not hyphenated.

[tracer]

xanadu - yep, 3g of Alcar is a lot. That's the Anarchy stack - more for fat loss at that dosage. With the going-rate for Alcar, that had better get me looking like the Men's Health cover-boy!

[xanadu]

Going rate for alcar? You must be buying it at the wrong place. It's about $50 a kilo at bulk nutrition.

[vegeto]

Tracer, have you ever experimented with lucid dreaming as part of your regimen? I only ask because I have this hunch that 'the dream world' makes for a very good 'training place'. There are some fairly interesting techniques out there for self psychology within lucid dreams, dreams are considered quite closely related to memory, and any 'work' done in there always tends to fell like more of an adventure. I also have a hunch that lucid dreaming skill tends to yeild results in a similar fassion as image streaming, in that- the awake mind must learn to connect to the dream mind, although, I am not sure it is technically similar, it can still make for a valuable exercise in itself. Any way you cut it, if feels kind of neat to be able to ask a charactor in my dream, "who are you and what part of me do you represent?" The responses can be quite revealing at times.

I recommend practicing a few lucid dreaming techniques and then adding a little ZMA to your stack. What else better do you have to do while you are sleeping right? You are just going to by lying there for eight hours, might as well make use of the opritunity.

[tracer]

Hmmm... Lucid dreaming.

I haven't looked into it much, but I am aware of several possible benefits of it. The ZMA thing is cool, although I am thinking of getting my hands on a zinc/magnesium/bcomplex injection and shooting it sub-cut for the duration of my training. Not too happy with the sterility of the vet-grade stuff, and sourcing the human stuff is proving difficult.

Xanadu: If your'e right, I probably paid too much.

[the big b]

It's almost been 2 weeks since the last post on this thread, any updates or progress?