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Sencha, Ginkgo, Ginseng (and other tries at an herbal adderall)

herbal adderall green tea ginkgo ginseng amphetamine dopamine memory attention motivation natural otc safe tolerance cognitive side effect benefits

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#1 gamesguru

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:06 PM


Sencha, Ginkgo, Ginseng. (& other attempted herbal adderalls)

;) Written by Shane :cool:

 

In terms of improving performance in the youth, these three common herbs are among the most effective.  All three decrease brain oxidation, increase neurotrophin levels, and improve aspects of memory, including working, verbal, and visual.  All three make you energetic, oppose inflammation, induce favorable epigenetic changes, and act as vasodilators, improving blood flow and cardiovascular tone.  While tea and ginkgo may slightly increase blood pressure and rate, ginseng appears to lower both.  Ginkgo increases testosterone production, green tea inhibits it, ginseng has no measurable effect.  There may be benefits on the adrenals, kidneys and liver, though less pronounced than the heart and brain.

 

Stacking all three may be advantageous in the case of ADHD.  My experience is that this is a wonderful combination, although it can sometimes be overwhelming and have “speedy” side effects.  Although much safer, this stack is still unfortunately not as quite effective as amphetamine.

 

Taken Before Breakfast? One simple trick.

Provided you don't indulge in too many demotivational substances (blazed.gifincluding bacopa, which is helpful @ 125mg three nights per week to control dopamine receptor levels[1]), the combination of tea, ginkgo and ginseng will keep you going like the energizer bunny until bedtime, even though you take them before breakfast.  These compounds have over 300% bioavailability when taken on an empty stomach[1].  Their half-lives are around 3 hours.  So, what's the point?

 

One guy doses at 6am.  It's a bold move, but one that pays off.  He's feeling great within minutes, because there's no food to obscure its transference to his bloodstream.  What's more?  He will be feeling good just as long as another guy, who takes his five hours later with lunch.  How's that possible?  It's all to do with that empty stomach or fasted state.

 

The second guy isn't in a terrible hurry and takes his stuff with lunch, 11am.  It's five hours later for the first guy (I feel like this is some thought experiment in relativity), nearly two half-lives, but if you do the math.. (300%) * (1/2)^(5/3), you find it's 95%!!  While the first guy has already been going strong for hours, he has practically the same plasma levels as the second guysunny.gifpipesmoke.gif.  This was quite surprising when it was first brought to my attention a few months ago.  I hadn't considered it possible to sustain a plasma level by such a simple method.

 

I wouldn't recommend it to start.  Just combine a few cups of tea and 1600mg ginseng, then after a week, add 60mg of ginkgo with lunch gradually tapering to 120mg.  Then after a few weeks start doing it before breakfast, with the tea and ginseng.  You'll be absolutely floored your first time if you do a potent sencha brew, 1600mg ginseng, and 120mg ginkgo all before breakfast.  You can also start with 800mg ginseng and a single cup of tea for a couple weeks, if you want to be extra cautious.

 

Neurotransmitter or Neurotrophin?

Tea boosts NGF and BDNF.  Ginseng[1] and ginkgo[2] increase all three: NGF, BDNF and GDNF.  When combined, the encouragement on nerve growth is so extensive, I believe these substances given to old people may improve stroke recovery, and given to children may increase IQ (which is more than you can say for ritalin) cool.gif

 

All three also boost frontal dopamine and striatal acetylcholine, modulate global glutamate, cytokines, adrenals and glucocorticoids, and have complimentary effects on GABA expression (ginseng is a GABAB antagonist and ginkgo is a GABAA antagonist, while the theanine in tea decreases GABA turnover and increases level).  That's potentially benefiting you people with inattentivity, depression, and anxiety.  I didn't find any studies involving all three (just combos of two), so consider yourselves guinea pigs.

 

Vasodilation. (Cerebral?)

Compounds which promote cerebral vasodilation often promote vasodilation across the entire body, and vice versa. 

 

Although no rival of ginger (a benchmark in vasodilation), tea is still an impressive vasodilator. Among tea drinkers, there is reduced risk of cardiovascular events relative to baseline.  Tea is reported to acutely increase arterial diameter and flow dilatation on the order of 4%, similar in potency to dark chocolate flavonoids.  Four percent may sound miniscule, but anyone familiar with physics knows the volumetric flow rate goes with the fourth power of the pipe radius, so this becomes (1.04)^4 = 1.17.  A 17% increase in blood flow is significant. This may be due to enhancement of endothelial dilation, reversal of “endothelial vasomotor dysfunction”, and stimulation of nitric oxide (NO) production.

 

Ginseng can perhaps rival ginger.  It promotes flow in lung vessels by 44%, and prevents platelet-aggregated thrombosis via elevation of cAMP.  Ginseng lowers elevated cholesterol, influences ion channels, improves arterial elasticity, and more:

“… ginseng’s potential cardiovascular benefits through diverse mechanisms that include antioxidation, modifying vasomotor function, reducing platelet adhesion, influencing ion channels, altering autonomic neurotransmitters release, and improving lipid profiles.”

 

At 21%, ginkgo can perhaps also rival ginger.  Its vasodilatory mechanisms are broadly similar with ginseng’s, but unlike ginseng, its vasodilatory properties have made media headlines countless times.   Perhaps ginseng deserves equal attention in this respect.  Ginkgo’s effects take one hour to peak, and last around four to six.  This is consistent with the half-life of ginkgolides and bilobalide:

“... the dilatory effect Ginkgo biloba on pial arterial vessels (less than 100 micron diameter), has been measured in cats.  After 20 minutes there was a significant dilatation of 7% which increased to 21% by one hour. Results from 6 cats treated with 0.3 mg/kg/min. Compared with a group of 6 control cats; the same blood gas "steady state" situation applying to both groups. Results imply a cerebral metabolic effect of Ginkgo biloba that induced a slow rise in cerebral blood flow
 

See this note on ginkgo and microvasculature in the axon[note], as well as this quote:

“... ginkgo flavonoids acts specifically to dilate even the smallest microcapillaries, which has a widspread effect on all the body's organs, especially the brain.

 

 

Quinoa, Catuaba, Mu Gua.

Devinthayer recently brought to my attention the most potent DRI in the plant kingdom. With a Ki of 1.03 nM (for SERT 0.65 nM, and for NET 140 pM), and found naturally in quinoa, it's hederagenin.  Quinoa is a doubly-good option for ADHD because of its magnesium[3] content which, like bacopa and memantine[4], helps to regulate dopamine and glutamate receptors.  However it's not clear how much the quinoa seeds (the part we eat) contain:

“... the sapogenin content in seeds of sweet genotypes varied from 0.2 to 0.4 g kg−1 dry matter and in seeds of bitter genotypes from 4.7 to 11.3 g kg−1 dry matter. The difference in sapogenin content between leaves and seeds was much higher in bitter genotypes than in sweet genotypes. Hederagenin was the major sapogenin found in leaves, and oleanolic acid in seeds

 

Catuaba improves rodent performance in the forced swimming test as well as boosting serotonin and especially dopamine[5].  Unlike Mucuna, a plentiful source of L-Dopa, Catuaba appears to work by dopamine uptake.  It has some crude alkaloids, so it's best to obtain a reputable extract.

 

Mu gua (aka Flowering quince) is another selective DRI[6], not as potent as hederagenin, but very few spillover effects on serotonin or acetylcholine.  Not much else is known about it.

 

Since these are all dopamine reuptake inhibitors, combining them won't result in any synergy.  Better to add one of these to one of the other stacks.

 

 

Ferulic acid, Magnesium, Zinc (Lithium, Chromium).

Globally, amphetamine may exert much of its effect by glutamate.  So sensitizing the glutamate system may be helpful.  That's what ferulic acid, magensium and memantine all have in common: NMDA-antagonism.  Since glutamate is the chief excitatory transmitter, regulating it will help deficits or tolerance observed with some dopaminergic pharms, including benzos[7] and alcohol.

... for instance, the concomitant administration of ferulic acid with benzodiazepines may reduce their sedative effect

 

Additionally, magnesium[note] and zinc[note] enjoy dopamine receptor-upregulating properties of their own.  Similar trends are seen with lithium[note] and chromium[note].  With chromium the evidence is pouring in for depression, but only zinc and magnesium are strongly established in ADHD.

 

 

Maca, Shilajit, Gotu Kola.

While maca boosts dopamine and noradrenaline and lowers corticosterone[8], it also has cardiovascular and mitochondrial benefits.  It's an FAAH inhibitor, with mood and motivation promoting effects.

 

Shilajit improves memory, promotes calmness and increases dopamine and serotonin[9].  It may also have a role in things like chronic fatigue, due to HPTA regulation (which it may be better at than schizandra) and due to its promoting mitochondrial health[note].

 

Goto kola increases alertness while promoting a calm mood[note].  It has received less attention, but early research suggests a prominent dopamine component (I also wouldn't be surprised if it was a GABA antagonist, like ginkgo and ginseng):

... another neurotransmitter, other than serotonin, that its production might be induced by Gotu kola and might have an effect on C. elegans, is dopamine.  Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that helps mediate emotion and motivation, which is one of the supposed effects of Gotu kola, that it is relaxing and increases happiness (Salamone et al., 2003).  One recent study concluded that dopamine inhibits egg-laying in wild-type C. elegans [as does Gotu kola, suggesting a dopaminergic mechanism)


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#2 William Sterog

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:31 PM

Polygala Tenuifolia is by far the best herb I've ever tried for attention.
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#3 gamesguru

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 09:17 PM

Wow, interesting.  Does it stack well with other stuff, or is it over-the-top?  It boosts neurogenesis[a], [b] dopamine and BDNF in the hippocampus and has anti-NMDA effects.

Positive effects in AD animal models
Triterpenoid saponin (polygalasaponin XXXII, PGS32) - a natural product from Polygala tenuifolia Willd has cognition-enhancing activity in the brain of C57BL/6J mice (8 weeks old) and Wistar rats (3 months old). It can also activate the mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) cascade, enhance the BDNF expression, and improve the synaptic transmission in primary hippocampal neurons of Wistar rats [81].

Effect in cell cultures   
On glutamate and H2O2-induced toxicity of the human neuroblastoma (SH-SY5Y) cell line, 3,6’-disinapoyl sucrose, a natural product of oligosaccharide ester from Polygala tenuifolia Willd, exhibits neuroprotective effect through regulating BDNF expression, and this regulation is associated with CREB-mediated BDNF transcription and upstream ERK1/2 and calmodulin dependent protein kinase II (CaMKII) activation [82]. In astrocytes of rats, total extract of Polygala tenuifolia Willd(0.3 g/ml) increases the expression of NGF [83], otherwise, extract of Polygala tenuifolia Willd(50 μg/ml) can induce NGF secretion in astroglial cells, and increase choline acetyltransferase activity in basal forebrain cells [84].  

Effect on other neurological models

Extract of Polygala radix Willd also enhances spatial memory of focal cerebral ischemia model mice, and this function is associated with up-regulating expression of BDNF in injured brain [85]. 

 

 

It normalizes several NTs in the PFC.  Definitely relevant to ADHD, expect to see placebo-controlled trials in the near future.

In addition, SYG restored the decreased monoamine neurotransmitter concentrations (serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine and acetylcholine) induced by CMS in the prefrontal cortex. Interestingly, SYG ameliorated CMS-induced cognitive impairment in the step-through test, and increased the acetylcholine level in the prefrontal cortex. These results suggest that SYG has an antidepressant-like action and enhances cognition by modulating the serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and acetylcholine levels in the prefrontal cortex.

 

 

As well as dopamine ligand activity.  Could be presynaptic specific, who knows.

The isolation and purification of a dopamine receptor ligand, tetrahydrocolumbamine from Polygala tenuifolia Willd is described. Tetrahydrocolumbamine was shown to inhibit the binding of [3H]-SCH23390 and [3H]-spiroperidol to rat striatum membranes in vitro with IC50 value of 0.75 μmol


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#4 William Sterog

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 05:21 AM


Wow, interesting. Does it stack well with other stuff, or is it over-the-top? It boosts neurogenesis[a], dopamine and BDNF in the hippocampus and has anti-NMDA effects.

Positive effects in AD animal models
Triterpenoid saponin (polygalasaponin XXXII, PGS32) - a natural product from Polygala tenuifolia Willd has cognition-enhancing activity in the brain of C57BL/6J mice (8 weeks old) and Wistar rats (3 months old). It can also activate the mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) cascade, enhance the BDNF expression, and improve the synaptic transmission in primary hippocampal neurons of Wistar rats [81].

Effect in cell cultures
On glutamate and H2O2-induced toxicity of the human neuroblastoma (SH-SY5Y) cell line, 3,6’-disinapoyl sucrose, a natural product of oligosaccharide ester from Polygala tenuifolia Willd, exhibits neuroprotective effect through regulating BDNF expression, and this regulation is associated with CREB-mediated BDNF transcription and upstream ERK1/2 and calmodulin dependent protein kinase II (CaMKII) activation [82]. In astrocytes of rats, total extract of Polygala tenuifolia Willd(0.3 g/ml) increases the expression of NGF [83], otherwise, extract of Polygala tenuifolia Willd(50 μg/ml) can induce NGF secretion in astroglial cells, and increase choline acetyltransferase activity in basal forebrain cells [84].

Effect on other neurological models
Extract of Polygala radix Willd also enhances spatial memory of focal cerebral ischemia model mice, and this function is associated with up-regulating expression of BDNF in injured brain [85].



It normalizes several NTs in the PFC. Definitely relevant to ADHD, expect to see placebo-controlled trials in the near future.

In addition, SYG restored the decreased monoamine neurotransmitter concentrations (serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine and acetylcholine) induced by CMS in the prefrontal cortex. Interestingly, SYG ameliorated CMS-induced cognitive impairment in the step-through test, and increased the acetylcholine level in the prefrontal cortex. These results suggest that SYG has an antidepressant-like action and enhances cognition by modulating the serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and acetylcholine levels in the prefrontal cortex.



As well as dopamine ligand activity. Could be presynaptic specific, who knows.

The isolation and purification of a [b]dopamine receptor ligand, tetrahydrocolumbamine from Polygala tenuifolia Willd is described. Tetrahydrocolumbamine was shown to inhibit the binding of [3H]-SCH23390 and [3H]-spiroperidol to rat striatum membranes in vitro with IC50 value of 0.75 μmol


It stacks very well with Rhodiola. I also take Carnosine, Alcar, Spirulina, Astragalus and Lecithin without adverse interactions.

#5 Barfly

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 09:59 AM

Great thread, exactly what I need since my energy levels are horrible but I am making some progress...

 

Some questions please:

 

I already take ginger and jiaogulan infusion in the morning and I am wondering if that is a viable ginseng substitute in your stack, especially since jaogulan is often called "poor mans ginseng" or "southern ginseng" since it has similar active ingredients if I am not mistaken.

 

What is sencha tea dosage? Also, it is quite expensive in my country so I am wondering if it can be substituted somehow (perhaps caffeine, theanine + EGCG)

 

Finally, I have also ordered ashwagandha and rhodiola, hoping for some energy and also testosterone boost, since my T levels are quite low for my age and I am worried if taking all those herbs might be a bit of an overkill, but I am desperate to get some energy and clarity back in my life.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Oh, one last question please: part of my morning regime is a smoothie filled with goodies like oats, flax seed, resistant starch, turmeric, some greens etc and it helps a bit with energy so if I wanted to exploit fasted state absorption of your stack how long is the minimum I have to wait before my smoothie, would 30-45 min be enough for some enhanced fasted state absorption?

 

 


Edited by Barfly, 06 October 2016 - 10:00 AM.


#6 gamesguru

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:16 PM

I would do 1 hour to be safe.  My routine is like this... Tea and ginseng at 6am.  A similar smoothie (almonds, chia, flax, berries, mango/banana, hemp, whey) at 8.  Suit up at 815 and out the door at 830.

 

According to the guy above you, polygala stacks well with rhodiola.  Unfortunately I didn't find much about jaogulan.  It stimulates BDNF via CREB[1].  And it protects dopamine neurons in Parkinson's models[2].  I also don't respond well to rhodiola (or had a 'meh' experience on cheap product), but am definitely curious about the polygala.  I understand you got enough herbs and polygala would be overkill (same for me atm), but one day.  I would choose between the jaiogulan and rhodiola, and between ash and bacopa.  I didn't realize ash was affordable?  The ginger will def help with testosterone, but of the cognitive/energizing effects it enjoys in parallel with poor mans ginseng, I am less certain.  It's generally safer to combine herbs if you lower the dose of each.  Say I was taking 300mg bacopa, but now I start doing 5g of tea in the morning, no harm in dropping the bacopa to 200mg.

 

I like to do 5g sencha, finely pulverized with a mortar&pestle.  The tea can be replaced with the combination you mentioned.  Not all green tea extract contains the important epicatechin, so it's also good to add in dark chocolate or blueberries (in case you didn't know, proanthocyanin is two epicatechin molecules bridged together).  You can check tea prices of these sources, avg $15 per 100g.



#7 William Sterog

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:52 AM

Bacopa is very demotivating and also antiandrogenic. Someone with energy and T problems shouldn't take Bacopa.

A study on male mice with 250mg/kg bodyweight Bacopa noted that it was able to transiently suppress fertility when it was being taken over 28 and 56 days (two times points of testing), sperm parameters appeared to be unanimously depressed.[86] When measured in the cauda epididymidis, reductions were seen in sperm motility (56% of control), spermatozoa count (54% of control), and viability (58% of control); the number of histologically abnormal spermatozoa increased significantly by 2.6 fold.[86]

#8 gamesguru

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 11:11 AM

Yes but another study found improved sperm quality and steriodogenesis. So you don't know what to believe.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27401287

Also it isn't always make you tired, very inconsistent, sometimes no effects, sometimes wakwfulness. But generally ppl are taking it at night.

#9 William Sterog

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 11:18 AM

Yes but another study found improved sperm quality and steriodogenesis. So you don't know what to believe.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27401287

Also it isn't always make you tired, very inconsistent, sometimes no effects, sometimes wakwfulness. But generally ppl are taking it at night.

This is an strange extract, we discussed it on reddit, I'm the user edefakiel:

https://m.reddit.com...acopa_monnieri/

Bacopa powder, Himalaya Bacopa and Bacognize made me very tired in the past. I've never tried any of the new extracts.

Edited by William Sterog, 07 October 2016 - 11:51 AM.


#10 gamesguru

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:49 PM

Bacognize made me very tired in the past
This is an strange extract

 

Try the lower dose of 125mg, early evening.

According to my sources what was used in that study was regular, plain KeenMind, which is super similar to Bacognize ..?  So the first study underpinning the antifertility effect is effectively undermined.

"... CDRI-08, containing at least 55% bacosides (the major constituent of BM), was investigated"

"... CDRI 08, the specific Bacopa monnieri extract used in KeenMind, is the focus of this special issue, acknowledging the extensive clinical and pre-clinical research that has been conducted on CDRI 08 over the past decades."

 

How could two studies on the same extract find opposite results?  Likely, bacopa has little effect in either direction to report on; rather the experiment was poorly controlled and other forces are at play. 

 

But going over the studies with a fine tooth comb, you see the one reporting a negative effect uses 250mg/kg of unrefined "Brahmi"[1], while the one with a positive effect uses 40 or 80mg/kg of the CDRI-08 whatsawhosit[2] (both studies use mice, thankfully).  Based on the very limited number of studies presented (two) we might infer the extract (which is commonly sold for human consumption) is actually pro-testosterone, while the crude plant is the opposite... but this would be a very provisional conclusion.  I've never had a problem, but I'm taking less than 1000mg per week.  Nor have I had a problem with ginseng[3], of which I am a heavier user.


Edited by gamesguru, 07 October 2016 - 12:58 PM.


#11 Catwoman

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 01:47 PM

Very interested in the polygala tenuifolia. I have trouble concentrating (as I'm still having these mind pops or intrusive thought) and keep myself focused and motivated.

But this thread caught my attention because of the Ginko. I could just be my imagination, but I think I my concentration is better (with less unwanted thoughts) when I drink herbal infusions with ginko.
I've been thinking on getting it as a supplement, but with green teas I'm not sure. I bought a bag of Camellia sinensis, drank a few cups spread over the day but ended up with annoying hart palpitations which lasted well into the night. The next day this happened again, so I guess one of the ingredients from the green tea has something to do with it. 



#12 gamesguru

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 02:01 PM

You might have low magnesium or be more excitable (e.g. epilepsy or cardiac arrhythmia) ..?  More likely is that the caffeine just increased your heart rate and pressure, and the catechins and theanine just increased your senses and awareness of your heartbeat to the point you started tripping out.  Ginkgo also makes my heartbeat faster and more perceptible, I try not to dwell on it.



#13 Catwoman

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 02:29 PM

You might have low magnesium or be more excitable (e.g. epilepsy or cardiac arrhythmia) ..?  More likely is that the caffeine just increased your heart rate and pressure, and the catechins and theanine just increased your senses and awareness of your heartbeat to the point you started tripping out.  Ginkgo also makes my heartbeat faster and more perceptible, I try not to dwell on it.

I used to be a coffee drinker (even worked as a barista for a few years). Still drink two, three cups of coffee a day, but too late in the evening is too stimulating for me. Doesn't make my heart pound as when I drank the this particular green tea (the bag just said 'Camellia sinensis') though. I had green tea from other brands before, so it could just be this tea.
I bought it for the theanine, but of course I wasn't feeling any calmer ;-)

My mother has cardiac arrhythmia (and took medication for a few years to counter it) so it might be a family related issue. I have a slow heart rate myself (between 48 and 55 b.p.m) and low hemogloblin levels for years. It has normalized recently though (I suspect heavy menstrual cycles and even escitalopram as the culprit, but I've been off it for almost two months).

I take magnesium bisglycinate 300 mg a day (chelated, no idea if this matters) but I'm switching to magnesium L-threonate next week.

I could give Ginko a try?


Edited by Catwoman, 07 October 2016 - 02:30 PM.


#14 gamesguru

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 03:00 PM

I could give Ginko a try?

 

hopefully the bag says more than 'Ginkgo biloba' though



#15 Catwoman

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 03:27 PM

 

I could give Ginko a try?

 

hopefully the bag says more than 'Ginkgo biloba' though

 

Should have gone for more then a bag of tea which says 'Camellia Sinensis' or were you not referring to that part? :-)



#16 normalizing

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:11 PM

catwoman im like you, green tea makes me super anxious annoyed heart problems too, just puts me in bad mood and several other forum members complain of this but gamesguru keeps denying it saying its not the tea but my imagination or some other issue. real pain in the ass that fellow, somehow i just view him as advertising agent keeps recommending green tea and suggests sources too!


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#17 gamesguru

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 03:58 AM

norm, you must be sensitive to cholinergics.  I swear.  Bad trips on everything from bacopa to ginseng.. anything I seem to recommend.  And you want to accuse me of selling out, because of the link to the teachat forum?  I'm only saving myself from some PMs.  Cut a niqqa some slack.

 

plusss norm, you admitted to liking 'Pure Leaf' tea, which is the bane of any connoisseur's existence.  Any self-respecting researcher knows that that leftover, stepped on shake has nary a catechin or theanine to represent, just heaps of natural flavoring and tap water.  But let me guess, you've tried my sources too and had a shit reaction.  Definitely, yeah.  Yeah, i went there.  Don't.  Hate.  On the real thing pirate.gif  also, get a job matey.

gamesguru, when i was 15 maybe i was drinking the crappy types but cmon man, i have vast experience here. and let me just say that lipton redeemed themselves recently with their newly launched Pure Leaf Tea, Unsweetened tea bottle products which surprisingly as it is do have the experience of good tea so lets be kinder to them for a change

 


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#18 William Sterog

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 06:11 AM

catwoman im like you, green tea makes me super anxious annoyed heart problems too, just puts me in bad mood and several other forum members complain of this but gamesguru keeps denying it saying its not the tea but my imagination or some other issue. real pain in the ass that fellow, somehow i just view him as advertising agent keeps recommending green tea and suggests sources too!


I believe you, despite the fact that I love tea and I take it everyday, black tea seems to make me feel sick sometimes if I drink it on empty stomach. White tea and green tea doesn't seem to have this effect on me.

But you should understand gamesguru too, this is very difficult to believe because tea is so popular and well tolerated for the mayority. Also, you don't need to fight with everyone man, this is not the first time, nor the second... That I see you arguing with an user.

I do believe that you're a nice guy, but I think that you should reconsider the way you express yourself or you will end up burned with the community. And in exchange of what?

Just my two cents. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear and sorry about the off-topic.

#19 psychejunkie

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 10:40 AM

 

 

I could give Ginko a try?

 

hopefully the bag says more than 'Ginkgo biloba' though

 

Should have gone for more then a bag of tea which says 'Camellia Sinensis' or were you not referring to that part? :-)

 

 

I guess gamesguru is mentioning the importance of proper extract of Ginkgo Biloba, like GK501 or EGb-761



#20 gamesguru

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 03:25 PM

offering sound scientific advice.. giving girls a hard time,  im only doing what comes naturally.

 

and yeah norm, there's a difference between saying,  "look shane i understand your homeopathic convictions and have nothing against them.  but hear me out, green tea just isn't for me.  i have xyz reaction from abc source.  do you have any idea why that is?  maybe we could get to the bottom of it and you could put a disclaimer on your posts that it's not for everyone."  and saying, "w-wah, ya turd.  quit recommending the same shitty supps.  youre worse than a broken record."  on that note i leave you with the only thing i found appropriate, a Nietzsche quoteleaving.gif

One often contradicts an opinion when what is uncongenial is really the tone in which it was conveyed.



#21 normalizing

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 04:38 PM

quoting nietzsche, i feel like im in high school once we grow up we dont quote philosophers anymore

 

egb-761 is acetone extract of gingko, would you consume acetone extracts? how about methanol extracts, lots of those of gingko as well


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#22 gamesguru

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 04:03 AM

so if it were a quote by an architect or poet, you would have let it slide?  why hate on philosophers tho?  just cos theyre floopin' clever bastards and youre less so?  don't.  hate.  everyone can use a little Nietz (and Bakunin) in their life.  part of the reason i'm a science nerd (the other part being tea, ginseng and ginkgo of course) is i saw philosophy as a good foundation in hs.. i took guys like Nietz and Sartre seriously while you were shooting rubber bands past guys like me.  and now I take bio seriously while you throw weak insults at me.  not much's changed.

learning.gif

 

and yes, norm, i would.  because the acetone is evapped off, and i dont have paranoid personality disorder.  which u dont either, cos otherwise you would have layer upon unsightly layer of nail polish that you'd be too fearful to remove, and everyone here knows youre 2gorgeous4that


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#23 normalizing

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 05:11 AM

i dont hate on "philosophers" i just find discussing them or quoting them kind of childish.

 

anyway i figured out why you talk so much; http://www.dailymail...ay-precise.html

 

and no, i dont hate on women either before you start!


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#24 Catwoman

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 12:15 PM

Well guys this isn't going anywhere, so please go back to the subject. Maybe there's something useful we can share?

On the acetone....I might be quite sensitive to this stuff.
Last Tuesday evening I was applying nail polish. Something I do regular. But this time it took me an hour, because it just would't sit on my nails and I had to remove it and start over a few times. I used strong nail polish remover (also with acetone) and I probably inhaled those vapors because I was working close to my hands with eyes and nose.

It could be just a coincidence, but I slept very poorly that night. Fell a sleep a few times and woke up scared with my heart pounding in my chest...This feeling in my body, as well as in my mind (very vivid dreams) was quite similar to what I felt when I drank that particular green tea.
 



#25 gamesguru

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:50 PM

i'm not a talkative lady, i'm a hypergraphic dude.  but fine, you know what norm, you're right.  how careless of me, quoting philosophers is childish.  you're mature (clearly).  you win. whiteflag.gif

the acetone incident was probably a coincidence, don't know much about its toxicity.  your body produces acetone in ketogenic states, but it's less harmful than the acetone you breath or drink.

 

 

As for getting back on topic, we could take a look at synthetic stuff and why it works.

 

Firstly amphetamine, selegiline, atomoxetine, methylphenidate, buproprion.

The first lot work through dopamine, DAT or NET, MAO or VMAT.

 

Next guanfacine and clonidine.

They work through alpha 2 adrenergic agonism.

 

Then noopept, oxi-, and phenylpiracetam.

These are cholinergic, with possible stimulatory effects on dopamine and TrkB.

 

Finally, newer stuff like tianpetine, GTS-21, NSI-189, PRL-8-53, GLYX-13, and A-412997.

Tianpetine works on the NMDA/AMPA and adenosine sites, GTS is nictonic, NSI is dopaminergic and/or glucocortical, PRL is dopaminergic and antiserotonergic, GLYX is an NMDA antagonist, like memantine, and A-412 is a D4 agonist.

 

Other ideas:

Amantadine appears to act through several pharmacological mechanisms, but no dominant mechanism of action has been identified. It is a dopaminergic, noradrenergic and serotonergic substance, blocks NMDA receptors, and seems to raise beta-endorphin/beta-lipotropin levels.[citation needed] Amantadine probably does not inhibit MAO enzyme.[15] Moreover, the mechanism of its antiparkinsonian effect is poorly understood.[citation needed] The drug has many effects in the brain, including release of dopamine and norepinephrine from nerve endings. It appears to be a weak NMDA receptor antagonist[16][17] as well as an anticholinergic, specifically a nicotinic alpha-7 antagonist like the similar pharmaceutical memantine.

In 2004, it was discovered that amantadine and memantine bind to and act as agonists of the σ1 receptor (Ki = 7.44 µM and 2.60 µM, respectively), and that activation of the σ1 receptor is involved in the dopaminergic effects of amantadine at therapeutically relevant concentrations.[18] These findings may also extend to the other adamantanes such as adapromine, rimantadine, and bromantane, and could explain the psychostimulant-like effects of this family of compounds.[18]

 



#26 Junk Master

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 10:17 PM

FYI I'm seeing more and more sensory gating issues misdiagnosed as ADHD.

 

In your search for an herbal adderall, either try adderall, not that I'm advocating trying it without talking to your physician...but...

 

True ADHD responds differently to adderall than brain fog/fatigue/high cortisol/polymorphic anxiety/chronic stress-- I could keep going.  You should know within a couple doses if you have true ADHD because adderall will make you CALMER.  To a lesser extent, the same goes for caffeine.

 

If you are looking for more motivation, stimulation, energy, less brain fog, IMO there are better choices, even as a comparison, than adderall.

 

Looking for a potent adaptogen that will increase "energy,"  I'd start with Rhodiola Rosea.  Though lately I'm looking more at both ASH and Holy Basil.  

 

I'm kind of liking some of the research I'm seeing on the cortisol suppressing effects of Holy Basil combined with it's possible testosterone increasing effects.


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#27 jack black

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 10:21 PM

Polygala Tenuifolia is by far the best herb I've ever tried for attention.

 

nice, how about motivation?

 

despite the fact that I love tea and I take it everyday, black tea seems to make me feel sick sometimes if I drink it on empty stomach.

 

same here, i learned not to drink strong tea on empty stomach.

 

On the acetone....I might be quite sensitive to this stuff.
Last Tuesday evening I was applying nail polish. Something I do regular. But this time it took me an hour, because it just would't sit on my nails and I had to remove it and start over a few times. I used strong nail polish remover (also with acetone) and I probably inhaled those vapors because I was working close to my hands with eyes and nose.

It could be just a coincidence, but I slept very poorly that night. Fell a sleep a few times and woke up scared with my heart pounding in my chest...This feeling in my body, as well as in my mind (very vivid dreams) was quite similar to what I felt when I drank that particular green tea.
 

 

i agree, acetone and other solvents are stimulants. This spring i spay painted parts for my kid's car in a poorly vented garage. acetone is the main solvent used these days. i was wired and anorexic entire days.
 



#28 normalizing

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:29 AM

hmm that might explain why acetone derived extracts of gingko feel stimulatory. originally i thought thats how the herb works, but perhaps it doesnt? i dont think its relaxing by nature tho, but its kind of sad the best proven and studied method is the acetone extract :/



#29 normalizing

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:32 AM

btw rhodiola is the only "herbal" adderall here no need to bother with else. that stuff is herbal speed for sure! it should be illegal in my opinion. it has all the effects of speed + the nasty side effects. im shocked this stuff is allowed on the market so freely. i might write to congress to ban this crap. if they ban ephedra which in my experience felt quite weak in comparison, then rhodiola should definitely be banned



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#30 gamesguru

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 01:22 AM

omg guys, the stimulatory effects of ginkgo capsules are not due to acetone.  you guys and your inductive leaps of faith (i suppose green tea also has acetone).  acetone is volatile, it evaporates at room temperature.  any acetone left in your extract would have long evaporated into an unmistakable plume while it sat on shelves in GNC or an Amazon sortation plant.  this plume would whack you in the face as you tore the factory seal.  simply spreading out acetone-soaked coffee grounds on a table overnight is enough to evap most off.  furthermore, you will not find studies showing acetone increases prefrontal dopamine, but you will for ginkgo extracts.  so don't frame the stimulatory effects like they're bad, they're just an indication that ginkgo.. is working

 

perhaps i'm a non-responder to rhodiola (st. johns and vinpocetine also do nothing for me).  or i just need to try a better source, because i didn't care for it.  but i like to see the whole perennial debate between cynic and idealist, non-responder and responder.  you can see from this reddit entry, the OP has 67 upvotes and claims rhodiola is a wonder drug, while the poster beneath him has 77 upvotes and relegates rhodiola to snake oil territory.  which poster to believe, perhaps both perhaps neither?  with pharmaceuticals you often get only a third to two thirds of patients showing a positive response to a given drug, same with the plant kingdom, not everything is for everyone.  it's a trial and error process.  i'm inclined to the view that rhodiola isn't for me


Edited by gamesguru, 10 October 2016 - 01:23 AM.






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