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Sencha, Ginkgo, Ginseng (and other tries at an herbal adderall)

herbal adderall green tea ginkgo ginseng amphetamine dopamine memory attention motivation natural otc safe tolerance cognitive side effect benefits

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#31 normalizing

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 01:28 AM

try different types of rhodiola you will get the idea. which source did you use? i worked in a vitamin shop, private family friend owner related and because it closed down i got shitload of supplements free and i got to try various brands of various things to know some work some dont even though its the same fucking herb! anyway, rhodiola in all cases no matter the source, caused speed like reaction. this stuff is fucking vile! you must have gotten some real cheap crap not to work honestly, i just dont believe you promote your gingko but not feel a thing from rhodiola, very very hard to believe. anyway, you are lucky because, rhodiola is nasty like amphetamines are. except, amphetamines have longer history of use and side effect profile and paradoxically are actually safer compared to rhodiola with much less use and research behind so I WOULDNT RISK USING IT LONG TERM AT ALL



#32 gamesguru

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 01:45 AM

i used smartpowders lol.  it's hard to say cause i was taking it with 10 other supps.  that was back when i still believed in vinpocetine, huperzine, piracetam.

 

oh, yeah?  the side effects outweigh the benefits?  perhaps it's an acetone residue



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#33 William Sterog

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 09:37 AM

Polygala Tenuifolia is by far the best herb I've ever tried for attention.


nice, how about motivation?

despite the fact that I love tea and I take it everyday, black tea seems to make me feel sick sometimes if I drink it on empty stomach.


same here, i learned not to drink strong tea on empty stomach.

On the acetone....I might be quite sensitive to this stuff.
Last Tuesday evening I was applying nail polish. Something I do regular. But this time it took me an hour, because it just would't sit on my nails and I had to remove it and start over a few times. I used strong nail polish remover (also with acetone) and I probably inhaled those vapors because I was working close to my hands with eyes and nose.
It could be just a coincidence, but I slept very poorly that night. Fell a sleep a few times and woke up scared with my heart pounding in my chest...This feeling in my body, as well as in my mind (very vivid dreams) was quite similar to what I felt when I drank that particular green tea.


i agree, acetone and other solvents are stimulants. This spring i spay painted parts for my kid's car in a poorly vented garage. acetone is the main solvent used these days. i was wired and anorexic entire days.

It isn't motivating per se, it is hard to explain, it will increase your will power, but you wouldn't feel euphoric or completely inspirated like when you're on real drugs.

https://m.reddit.com...ct&compact=true

I wrote this, you may be interested.

#34 Catwoman

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 10:56 AM

I've been reading up on Rhodiola, but I wouldn't want to feel too alert or spend my money on a 'speed like' supplement!  Still primarily looking for something that will increase my concentration and focus and will block the same old-same old thought popping up. 
Not sure if there's much negative neuroplasticity going on or if there's a network / brain area over-active and not letting that particular thought flow away.
Of course it is something which bothers me....and the more attention I give it, the more it will grow and bother.
|
On the other hand, I do have some issues with getting up and getting on with my day (motivate myself) and keeping myself focused during the day as I'm not the multitask person (they say women can do three things at the same time, but for me....NOT true :-D). So any herbal help is welcome.



#35 William Sterog

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 11:20 AM

omg guys, the stimulatory effects of ginkgo capsules are not due to acetone. you guys and your inductive leaps of faith (i suppose green tea also has acetone). acetone is volatile, it evaporates at room temperature. any acetone left in your extract would have long evaporated into an unmistakable plume while it sat on shelves in GNC or an Amazon sortation plant. this plume would whack you in the face as you tore the factory seal. simply spreading out acetone-soaked coffee grounds on a table overnight is enough to evap most off. furthermore, you will not find studies showing acetone increases prefrontal dopamine, but you will for ginkgo extracts. so don't frame the stimulatory effects like they're bad, they're just an indication that ginkgo.. is working

perhaps i'm a non-responder to rhodiola (st. johns and vinpocetine also do nothing for me). or i just need to try a better source, because i didn't care for it. but i like to see the whole perennial debate between cynic and idealist, non-responder and responder. you can see from this reddit entry, the OP has 67 upvotes and claims rhodiola is a wonder drug, while the poster beneath him has 77 upvotes and relegates rhodiola to snake oil territory. which poster to believe, perhaps both perhaps neither? with pharmaceuticals you often get only a third to two thirds of patients showing a positive response to a given drug, same with the plant kingdom, not everything is for everyone. it's a trial and error process. i'm inclined to the view that rhodiola isn't for me


Rhodiola is one of my favorites supplements, but I find it subtle, I have never gone beyond one pill a day, but I think that is not any closer to real stimulants. Lately I've been taking it 3-4 days a week and it provides a nice extra when it is needed. The days I'm off I take Polygala. In my experience, Rhodiola is better for physical activity and Polygala for intellectual.

#36 normalizing

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 05:55 PM

william you just have tolerance to stimulants then. because there is no way rhodiola is subtle. but then again, you take one pill you said and who knows how well standardized it is as i had some pretty potent extracts

catwoman if you react bad to coffee or green tea, rhodiola will flip you out, just warning you here



#37 William Sterog

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 08:19 PM

william you just have tolerance to stimulants then. because there is no way rhodiola is subtle. but then again, you take one pill you said and who knows how well standardized it is as i had some pretty potent extracts
catwoman if you react bad to coffee or green tea, rhodiola will flip you out, just warning you here

3% rosavins 1% salidrosides 350mg. I've tried several brands and this seems to be the standard for most extracts.

In fact, I have always thought that I'm sensitive to stimulants, I never drink coffee because is a little too much for me. I only like black coffee.

Edited by William Sterog, 10 October 2016 - 08:21 PM.


#38 Junk Master

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:49 AM

Guys, the thread title ends with "other-tries-at-an-herbal-adderall" but you're not looking for anything "speedy?"

 

BTW The original herbal adderall was ephedra/white willow bark/guanine/green tea complex (for theophylline).

 

The closest thing I ever came across to adderall, which I once had a script for and came to detest, was the banned pre-workout supplement CRAZE.

 

Apparently, CRAZE had N,alpha-diethylphenylethylamine in it, which, again IMO was far more euphoric, albeit wore off much more quickly, than adderall.

 

Thanks for reminding me, though, because I believe n α-depea is still sold OTC and I'd love to compare it to the original Craze.

 

As a pre-workout drink, I haven't found anything even close besides the scheduled Modafinil.  

 

Not to hijack the thread, but apparently Victor Conte of Balco fame was giving his athletes 4-5 other amphetamine-like stimulants like modafinil, and I'd love to find that list.

 

Normalizing, did you ever try any Ma Huang supplements?  Because those were the closest I ever came to feeling like I had overdosed!  You could never be sure of the ephedrine content, or if they had been spiked with pure ephedrine and I'd end up a sweaty mess, heart beating irregularly, so nauseous after a set of heavy squats, I'd literally just roll a towel to rest my neck and lay on the gym floor with black spots popping in front of my eyes....aaaah, good times.

 

Thinking back, it would have been healthier just to do a bump of biker crank!


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#39 jack black

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 03:05 PM

FYI I'm seeing more and more sensory gating issues misdiagnosed as ADHD.

I had to look it up. Do you mean autism?

Aren't you more AS than ADHD yourself? If so, how do you know how true ADHD reacts to stimulants?

Edited by jack black, 11 October 2016 - 03:35 PM.


#40 tronatula2

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 03:30 PM

Guys, the thread title ends with "other-tries-at-an-herbal-adderall" but you're not looking for anything "speedy?"

 

BTW The original herbal adderall was ephedra/white willow bark/guanine/green tea complex (for theophylline).

 

The closest thing I ever came across to adderall, which I once had a script for and came to detest, was the banned pre-workout supplement CRAZE.

 

Apparently, CRAZE had N,alpha-diethylphenylethylamine in it, which, again IMO was far more euphoric, albeit wore off much more quickly, than adderall.

 

Thanks for reminding me, though, because I believe n α-depea is still sold OTC and I'd love to compare it to the original Craze.

 

As a pre-workout drink, I haven't found anything even close besides the scheduled Modafinil.  

 

Not to hijack the thread, but apparently Victor Conte of Balco fame was giving his athletes 4-5 other amphetamine-like stimulants like modafinil, and I'd love to find that list.

 

Normalizing, did you ever try any Ma Huang supplements?  Because those were the closest I ever came to feeling like I had overdosed!  You could never be sure of the ephedrine content, or if they had been spiked with pure ephedrine and I'd end up a sweaty mess, heart beating irregularly, so nauseous after a set of heavy squats, I'd literally just roll a towel to rest my neck and lay on the gym floor with black spots popping in front of my eyes....aaaah, good times.

 

Thinking back, it would have been healthier just to do a bump of biker crank!

 

Hi, Junk Master, you mentioned a lot of stuff, but in term of motivation, beating procrastination, which is the best (including stack)?



#41 tronatula2

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 03:37 PM

It isn't motivating per se, it is hard to explain, it will increase your will power, but you wouldn't feel euphoric or completely inspirated like when you're on real drugs.


https://m.reddit.com...ct&compact=true

I wrote this, you may be interested.

 

 

Good review, may I ask which substances did you find are good for motivation, beating procrastination?

 

I haven't tried Adderall but I think what makes it the best is the increase in motivation.



#42 Junk Master

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 04:57 PM

I am definitely more AS than ADHD, though high functioning to the point (or rather at this point...lol) I most likely could act my way through any formal AS evaluation and not be diagnosed as such-- can't see what the point of that would be, but you get the idea.  In fact, given the lack of awareness and my age (nearly 50), I only came to realize many of my idiosyncratic behaviors could be classified as AS traits after raising my high functioning AS son, who DOES have a formal diagnosis, and is clearly much more on the spectrum than I am.

 

My experience with true ADHD, which I believe is terribly over diagnosed, comes from working with students who quite obviously have the condition and watching them respond to stimulants, as well as spending many years working with a creative partner in the entertainment business who had a diagnosis of ADHD.  In those cases, I've seen these individuals respond to a variety of stimulant medications, or even high doses of caffeine, in a much different way than I do!  Adderall will, especially over time, paradoxically, calm them down.  Large doses of caffeine make them sleepy.

 

Now, even in my case, extended use of Adderall came to make me sleepy; but, I would now label the feeling as closer to "burnt out."

 

Part of the problem with Ritalin, Adderall, Focalin et all is at first they work for nearly everyone to increase focus.  However, with those individuals who truly have ADHD, I've observed first hand, on numerous occasions, a different sort of reaction than the wired focus students often take Ritalin for.

 

In terms of motivation, I would encourage everyone to stay away from stimulants on a regular basis!  Used infrequently, Modafinil can be a powerful tool to plow through a chunk of work, or study but I wouldn't classify it as great for motivation.

 

For physical exercise, my favorite motivational "supplement" at the moment is intermittent use of 200 mg of Phenylpiracetam along with Choline Bitrate, with the occasional addition of 10 mg of Noopept.

 

I've read a number of recent books on motivation, and it continues to be one of my obsessive interests.  I think the best advice I can offer is to think of motivation as habit building with the end goal being to automate a task as much as possible.  If you can get to the point where you are putting on your running shoes, or opening a book to study, with the same mindlessness as you continue to attempt to flip on the lights during a black out, you've got it made!

 

Another powerful tool is previsualization-- spend time meditating on the successful completion of whatever task you choose to accomplish, specifically how empowering, and how much self-esteem you derive from having finished.

 

Finally, face the reality that motivation can be improved but is still limited.  Don't try and diet while quitting smoking.  Don't cut out all refined sugar and start training for a 10k at the same time.  Don't let yourself get too hungry, or too tired.  Simple advice, yes, but how many of us who struggle with motivation, myself included, cultivate all or nothing thought patterns?


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#43 Junk Master

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:01 PM

BTW nice review of Polygala Tenuifolia, tronatula2 .  That's something that has piqued my interest and I will be trying in the future.

 

I do find ashwaghada useful for motivation, and as an adaptogen, but rotate it because I do worry about tolerance and gaba downregulation.



#44 William Sterog

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 06:23 PM

It isn't motivating per se, it is hard to explain, it will increase your will power, but you wouldn't feel euphoric or completely inspirated like when you're on real drugs.
https://m.reddit.com...ct&compact=true

I wrote this, you may be interested.


Good review, may I ask which substances did you find are good for motivation, beating procrastination?

I haven't tried Adderall but I think what makes it the best is the increase in motivation.

Well, ALCAR, caffeine, CDP-choline... Maybe some adaptogens as ginseng, that works synergistically with ginkgo... I don't know, my problems are always related to low energy, so anything that beats fatigue will be useful for me.

#45 normalizing

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:14 AM

^ you probably need more protein and iron in your diet



#46 jack black

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:46 AM

I am definitely more AS than ADHD, though high functioning to the point (or rather at this point...lol) I most likely could act my way through any formal AS evaluation and not be diagnosed as such-- can't see what the point of that would be, but you get the idea.  In fact, given the lack of awareness and my age (nearly 50), I only came to realize many of my idiosyncratic behaviors could be classified as AS traits after raising my high functioning AS son, who DOES have a formal diagnosis, and is clearly much more on the spectrum than I am.

 

My experience with true ADHD, which I believe is terribly over diagnosed, comes from working with students who quite obviously have the condition and watching them respond to stimulants, as well as spending many years working with a creative partner in the entertainment business who had a diagnosis of ADHD.  In those cases, I've seen these individuals respond to a variety of stimulant medications, or even high doses of caffeine, in a much different way than I do!  Adderall will, especially over time, paradoxically, calm them down.  Large doses of caffeine make them sleepy.

 

Now, even in my case, extended use of Adderall came to make me sleepy; but, I would now label the feeling as closer to "burnt out."

 

Part of the problem with Ritalin, Adderall, Focalin et all is at first they work for nearly everyone to increase focus.  However, with those individuals who truly have ADHD, I've observed first hand, on numerous occasions, a different sort of reaction than the wired focus students often take Ritalin for.

 

In terms of motivation, I would encourage everyone to stay away from stimulants on a regular basis!  Used infrequently, Modafinil can be a powerful tool to plow through a chunk of work, or study but I wouldn't classify it as great for motivation.

 

For physical exercise, my favorite motivational "supplement" at the moment is intermittent use of 200 mg of Phenylpiracetam along with Choline Bitrate, with the occasional addition of 10 mg of Noopept.

 

I've read a number of recent books on motivation, and it continues to be one of my obsessive interests.  I think the best advice I can offer is to think of motivation as habit building with the end goal being to automate a task as much as possible.  If you can get to the point where you are putting on your running shoes, or opening a book to study, with the same mindlessness as you continue to attempt to flip on the lights during a black out, you've got it made!

 

Another powerful tool is previsualization-- spend time meditating on the successful completion of whatever task you choose to accomplish, specifically how empowering, and how much self-esteem you derive from having finished.

 

Finally, face the reality that motivation can be improved but is still limited.  Don't try and diet while quitting smoking.  Don't cut out all refined sugar and start training for a 10k at the same time.  Don't let yourself get too hungry, or too tired.  Simple advice, yes, but how many of us who struggle with motivation, myself included, cultivate all or nothing thought patterns?

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Agree with the over-diagnosis of ADHD. My kids are formally diagnosed and I could if i wanted to, but i feel we don't have it in the strict sense. The description you gave on stimulants fits what my kids told me (the "burnt out" part). I personally never took any prescription stimulants, but i'm frequently "burnt out" from the stress of daily life. Since my self-diagnosis, i'm hoping i'll find some fixes. Interestingly, my motivation did improve a lot in the last 3-4 weeks. Not sure what to credit, as i keep experimenting with my stack and meds. I'm thinking that a deadline for a major project forced me to work harder and the harder work ethics seem to stick for a time being. I also improved my diet (gluten free if possible). i guess amantadine trial coincided with that too. i since replaced it with tianeptine based stack. I'm also tempted to try the Polygala Tenuifolia or Radiola.

 



#47 Junk Master

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:23 AM

jack black,

 

I don't know if you followed the GTS-21 group buy but I'd be very curious to see how you would respond to that RC.

 

Also, do you have any experience with Nicotine?

 

 



#48 jack black

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 09:11 PM

jack black,

 

I don't know if you followed the GTS-21 group buy but I'd be very curious to see how you would respond to that RC.

 

Also, do you have any experience with Nicotine?

 

i still have that box of nicotine gum i purchased several months ago. it's stimulating alright and definitively curbs my appetite, but it gives me more anxious feeling rather than clear head i would prefer. i had a stressful moment at work today (i missed an important meeting today that all neurotypicals attended, but i somehow missed the memo), and i took one dose of nicotine gum to calm me down and concentrate on the work, but it made me visit the usual internet sites (this included) instead.

 

i understand that nicotine helps with sensory gating and prepulse inhibition issue, but it's more typical for schizophrenia rather than autism, right?

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Sensory_gating

https://en.wikipedia...ulse_inhibition

 


Edited by jack black, 12 October 2016 - 09:36 PM.


#49 Junk Master

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 11:27 PM

Right about sensory gating and schizophrenia, for sure.

 

I could never handle nicotine gum either.  Not so much anxiety but nausea.  Did help focus though.

 

What was interesting about the GTS-21 was it seemed to modulate stress response.   It didn't seem to help focus, or stimulate me anywhere near nicotine gum.  In fact, the only time I seemed to notice it was in retrospect, when I realized in the midst of what was normally a very stressful situation, I felt almost a wash of calm.  The only substance that has ever done that to be without being sedating is Phenibut--

 

Getting a little off into the weeds here, but I was talking with a Neurologist about AS and he mentioned many AS patients he sees have vastly different drug tolerances than "neurotypicals"  (BTW I was warned not to use that phrase by another person with AS, but I'm really not buying the idea that EVERYONE is on the Spectrum).  In the Neurologist's experience AS patients either required very little medication, or a BOATLOAD.

 

That fits with another pet peeve I have, mental health professionals who insist those on the AS are not empathetic-- granted there are many cases where empathy seems lacking, but there are also many cases where those with AS are overwhelmed with empathy and are extremely empathetic-- to the point of shutting down.

 

 



#50 jack black

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 05:54 PM

I have a follow up on nicotine. I woke up this morning with a headache and remembering a super vivid dream (exotic travel, LOL). This is how I react to anything ACh related. So, it's no go for me.

#51 normalizing

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 08:24 PM

^ placebo since nicotine has short half life unless you put one of those patches all through the night



#52 jack black

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 09:03 PM

^ placebo since nicotine has short half life unless you put one of those patches all through the night


Nice try:

Biological half-life: 1-2 hours; 20 hours active metabolite.

#53 normalizing

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 02:32 AM

20 hours active metabolite? first time i hear of this. if thats true, people wouldnt be smoking cigaratte after cigaratte. this "active" metabolite must be something else that doesnt have much effect otherwise its not logical how nicotine works in my personal experience



#54 jack black

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 03:13 AM

20 hours active metabolite? first time i hear of this. if thats true, people wouldnt be smoking cigaratte after cigaratte. this "active" metabolite must be something else that doesnt have much effect otherwise its not logical how nicotine works in my personal experience


https://en.m.wikiped...g/wiki/Cotinine

You're welcome.

#55 Junk Master

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 05:49 AM

Cotinine may have a half-life of 20 hrs but I believe Nicotine has a half-life of around two hours from multiple sources I could find.   That would fit with the average frequency of lightly addicted cigarette smokers, which is 12 cigarettes per day.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...books/NBK53018/

 

This thread is officially getting all over the place, but it's still fun.

 

 



#56 gamesguru

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Posted 25 July 2020 - 12:01 PM

Any other ideas guys?

In case youre wondering, today 4 years later, I've still settled on a relatively lame and mild stack.  Japanese tea, Korean red ginseng, and magnesium glycinate/threonate.  I don't take any harsh pharmaceuticals, or track my tyrosine:trytophan intake or pursue any other aggressive or religious treatments.  I have pursued various other lifestyle improvements, but they are generally advisable to all with no designated ADHD component.

 

Despite the mild stack, over the years my self-appraised Conners' ADHD score has reduced from a 14 down to a 10 or even a 9.  I am able to remember appointments, stay focused in the present and remain calm, while not medicating away entirely the hyperfocus, the creative free-spiritedness and other desirable attributes arising from this condition.  What's more is when I abstain for more than 2-3 days from tea, a subtle, meandering fog returns in force.

 

I'm sure a pharmaceutical would be the more effective with procrastination and motivational aspects—as the ADHD class of drugs are so uniquely useful here—but the question is at what cost.  And besides what I mentioned above, I didn't come across any cheap, easy or safe natural/OTC tricks.



#57 Adaptogen

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 09:47 PM

What lifestyle changes did you notice the most from?

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#58 experimenting

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 02:08 PM

Any other ideas guys?

In case youre wondering, today 4 years later, I've still settled on a relatively lame and mild stack. Japanese tea, Korean red ginseng, and magnesium glycinate/threonate. I don't take any harsh pharmaceuticals, or track my tyrosine:trytophan intake or pursue any other aggressive or religious treatments. I have pursued various other lifestyle improvements, but they are generally advisable to all with no designated ADHD component.

Despite the mild stack, over the years my self-appraised Conners' ADHD score has reduced from a 14 down to a 10 or even a 9. I am able to remember appointments, stay focused in the present and remain calm, while not medicating away entirely the hyperfocus, the creative free-spiritedness and other desirable attributes arising from this condition. What's more is when I abstain for more than 2-3 days from tea, a subtle, meandering fog returns in force.

I'm sure a pharmaceutical would be the more effective with procrastination and motivational aspects—as the ADHD class of drugs are so uniquely useful here—but the question is at what cost. And besides what I mentioned above, I didn't come across any cheap, easy or safe natural/OTC tricks.


What happened to the ginkgo?

I’m going to start with ginkgo/ginseng today.

Do you know anything about Ginseng and 5ar? I don’t want to inhibit DHT.





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