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#121 xEva

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 11:51 PM

congrats Nate you did well!

re 48h weekly fasts, it's not a good length, unless you do it for no more than 2-3 weeks, just before getting into a longer fast..But it's not good to do as a routine. Same goes for 3 and 4 days. But it's ok to do these lengths of fast once in a while.

 

You noticed, you get into ketosis at ~48h. It's not good to go in and out. all the time. This tends to unsettle glucose metabolism,  I think 2-3d water fasts are sorta masochistic, coz  days 2 and 3 tend to be the hardest. One day is easy, on the second it gets harder. The 3rd is the worst by far,, coz that's the day of transition, when your sugar is at the lowest with all the implications. On the 4th it gets noticeably better, and on the 5th, with experience, you may even get high, with lotsa energy..  After that it sorta goes up and down, until day 8-10, after which you finally fully adapt and reach a steady state, with very little daily weight loss. 



#122 StevesPetRat

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 05:17 AM

Any advice on a 21 day fast? I've done 4 days a couple times and once was on a 1 meal a day schedule for 3 months. Is exercise ill-advised?

 

I have somewhere around 25 pounds of body fat, for reference. I am not primarily interested in weight loss, but rather in healing benefits, particularly those of the brain / mind / (dare I say?) spirit.


Edited by StevesPetRat, 28 July 2018 - 05:19 AM.


#123 sthira

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 11:50 AM

...EGCG and Cocoa and N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine are just fine while fasting and even assist in enabling autophagy...


Unfortunately I don't think it's well-known yet if these you listed are just fine while fasting and even "assist in enabling autophagy." What if they do or what if they don't? You're taking them on faith that they might benefit your human health over and beyond what your body already is doing during a fast. When the ins and outs of autophagy are better understood, I'll dive right into supplement experimentation, too; but while we wait, why not try fasting while respecting Mother Nature? Because metabolism-tinkering science keeps showing us it's very hard to improve upon what evolution has given us; we evolved precise biochemical networks and regulatory systems in response to survival during frequent food deprivation. Who's to say that even if the substances you listed (cocoa is food, btw) enable autophagy over and beyond that the autophagy-plus isn't too much? Throwing random stuff may be a fine personal experiment, but meanwhile it forces the fasting body to deal with substances in ways that aren't yet understood. We need more fasting studies in humans.

SENS claims to be hard at work on damage repair for anti-aging away our woes, and while we wait for them hopeful future days, try respecting mother nature during your next fast, and just drink water.

Any advice on a 21 day fast? I've done 4 days a couple times and once was on a 1 meal a day schedule for 3 months. Is exercise ill-advised?

I have somewhere around 25 pounds of body fat, for reference. I am not primarily interested in weight loss, but rather in healing benefits, particularly those of the brain / mind / (dare I say?) spirit.


Maybe ease into a 21-day fast after practice and patience acquired during shorter fasts? Between fasts try eating a consistent healthy diet tracked on cronometer so you know what you're consuming.

Try 5-day fasts once every other month or so, note reactions and learn, if these go well, then maybe extend 5-days to 7-days a few times, and so forth, slowly, while you keep learning how your body reacts. I'd be very careful and pay attention to yourself -- fasting is powerful and deserves way more respect than many here seem to believe.
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#124 xEva

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 02:42 PM

Any advice on a 21 day fast?
... Is exercise ill-advised?


Exercising is essential on a fast, though of course you should get into a routine before that. Often, when not feeling well, the best thing to do is to go for a walk -- at least! even though at times this seems impossible in principle, coz you're barely dragging your feet.  After a few minutes on fresh air you may feel up for a jog or working out in a park. It is very important that you exercise in the environment which is cool, or even cold, and has lotsa fresh air. In a warm or stuffy environment you may feel worse and even pass out.

 

One of the most common reasons for feeling weak and foggy on a fast is acidosis (all those fatty acids and ketones suddenly flooding the system). The best and fastest way to alkalize your blood is vigorous exercise on fresh air. 

 

If your blood glucose is too low, exercising will bring it up. Measure it before and after and be amazed. An you will feel strong and invigorated  -- exercising on a fast is like eating! That's Cori cycle at work and so don't worry that this must be the sign that you 'ate your muscles'. To the contrary, resting in bed for days on end will atrophy your muscles even when you eat regularly. On a fast this will happen so much quicker. 

 

It is the old school fasters who follow Shelton who believe that one must rest in bed while fasting. That is contrasted by the Russian protocol developed in the 1970s. The Russian school explicitly forbids bed rest during a fast. They don't insist on vigorous exercise but require walking in a park minimum 10 km a day.

 

I think it's most natural to be physically active when fasting. Consider that animals fast during their migrations. This is sorta built into all of us by evolution (the usual reason for migration is exhaustion of resources, and so you set on a journey and you generally don't get to eat until you arrive to a new place). To me, being physically active when fasting feels very natural and I sorta even crave it. Even CR'd lab rodents increase their activity by 50%. And when I began fasting, I noticed that I instinctively did the same. It just felt good.

 

 

 

 


Edited by xEva, 28 July 2018 - 03:12 PM.

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#125 sthira

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 03:50 PM

I think it's most natural to be physically active when fasting. Consider that animals fast during their migrations. This is sorta built into all of us by evolution (the usual reason for migration is exhaustion of resources, and so you set on a journey and you generally don't get to eat until you arrive to a new place). To me, being physically active when fasting feels very natural and I sorta even crave it. Even CR'd lab rodents increase their activity by 50%. And when I began fasting, I noticed that I instinctively did the same. It just felt good.


Yeah like wildebeests on the move -- no one is eating. Migratory songbird literally flying pole to pole on practically no fat reserves. Humans probably scavenged en route, or on the run, searching for whatever was edible but didn't kill or sicken.

But we can do better: moving while fasting is like the old anciently-evolved body is saying oh I'm hungry now, so get off your ass and go find food, to assist in survival here are some internally controlled chemicals to make misery feel good.

Personally I get more out of a fast by exercising my body into a tizzy, and I feel so light and strong and free. It's hard to put into words. Here is the divine we seek. Why mystics go in for this. Sometimes on a longer fast I'll have so much good clean light energy I have to move, as if motion is imperative. I'll go to a club and dance my shit off to EDM, in trance, totally sober, just me after no food and only water, surrounded by clubbing drunks working their courting rituals. Loads of fun, and you get to keep your head, get to avoid drugged idiots, avoid what's ugly about club scenes, find the beautiful and not get arrested for staggering in public.

Anyway, fasting can be fun, and not just Puritanical insane misery.
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#126 sthira

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 09:52 PM

What Is Intermittent Fasting And Is It Actually Good For You?

By Markham Heid
Aug 1, 2018

TIME

https://apple.news/A...KTlmb0qA6l_khlQ

Sustainable weight loss. Protection from diabetes, heart disease and cancer. Improved brain health. Enhanced physical fitness and strength. It seems like every week, researchers turn up some new and profound benefit associated with intermittent fasting: eating schedules that incorporate regular periods of low or no food consumption.

By eating normally for several days a week and eating much less on the others, a person may be able to shift her body’s cellular and metabolic processes in ways that promote optimal health. And experts who study intermittent fasting say that while many blanks still need to be filled in, some of the positive health effects of intermittent fasting are no longer in doubt.

“There continues to be good evidence that intermittent fasting is producing weight-loss benefits, and we also have some evidence that these diets can reduce inflammation, they can reduce blood pressure and resting heart rate, and they seem to have beneficial effects on the cardiovascular system,” says Benjamin Horne, director of cardiovascular and genetic epidemiology at Utah’s non-profit Intermountain Healthcare system, who has published research on the effects of intermittent fasting. “[Intermittent fasting] is something that is moving into practice in the medical field, and it’s a reasonable approach for people who don’t like daily restriction of their calories.”

The bulk of the early research on fasting focused on weight loss. Studies comparing intermittent fasting (also known as intermittent energy restriction) to traditional calorie-cutting diets have found that people lose more weight on the fasting plans. They also seem to like the diet better; intermittent fasters tend to drop out of dietary studies at lower rates than calorie cutters.

“Intermittent fasting is a good option for weight loss for overweight and obese people,” says Michelle Harvie, a research dietitian with the Prevent Breast Cancer unit at the Manchester Breast Centre in the UK. Harvie has coauthored several studies on intermittent fasting, and her research has repeatedly shown that it outperforms traditional diets in terms of weight loss, reduced body fat and improved insulin resistance. She’s also found some evidence that intermittent fasting may beat traditional weight-loss plans when it comes to lowering a woman’s risk for breast cancer, and that, at least in rodents, fasting plans may disrupt or counteract the development of neurological diseases like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s.

Most of Harvie’s research has examined 5:2 fasting plans—or protocols that restrict calorie intake two days a week while allowing normal eating the other five. But she says there’s also promising research on diets that impose fasting every other day (usually referred to as alternate-day fasting plans), and also on time-restricted fasting, which are diets the restrict daily food consumption to a six- or eight-hour window.

“None of these have been studied head to head, but they all improve health,” says Mark Mattson, chief of the Laboratory of Neurosciences at the National Institute on Aging and a professor of neuroscience at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. Mattson has published multiple studies and reviews on intermittent fasting.

There’s evidence these diets bolster stress resistance and combat inflammation at a cellular level, he says. “People undergo a metabolic switch in which the liver’s energy stores are depleted, and so the body’s cells start using fat and ketones for energy,” he explains. This switch is a form of mild challenge to the human body that he compares to exercise; just as running or lifting weights stresses the body in beneficial ways, the stress imposed by fasting appears to induce some similarly beneficial adaptations. Whether you’re talking about physical activity or fasting, “these cycles of challenge, recovery, challenge, recovery seem to optimize both function and durability of most cell sites,” he says.

Fasting also makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, he says. All-the-time access to food is a relatively new phenomenon in human history. Back when sustenance was harder to come by, “natural selection would have favored individuals whose brains and bodies functioned well in a food-deprived state,” he says.

Horne agrees. “You think back to long ago, when food gathering and production were not what we have today, and people would go extended periods of time without eating,” he says. “The people who survived to have children were individuals who were able to survive those periods, so just from that perspective, you would expect fasting would have an effect to improve health.”

But while experts are optimistic about intermittent fasting, they acknowledge there are still many unknowns. Almost all the human research to date has been in overweight or obese adults. “We don’t know of its benefits in normal weight people, as it has not been studied,” Harvie says.

It’s also not yet clear whether there are any potential long-term risks associated with intermittent fasting, or if older adults or kids would benefit from these eating plans. Another unknown is whether intermittent fasting could increase a person’s risk for anorexia. But almost everything we’ve learned about intermittent fasting thus far suggests it’s likely to be beneficial for most adults, Mattson adds.

How should you try it? Mattson says there are several methods, but the 5:2 plan has the most data backing it up. For two days a week (either consecutive or broken up), aim to consume just 500 daily calories of fat or protein—foods like eggs, fish and nuts. For example, one day’s meal plan could be two scrambled eggs for breakfast (180 calories), a quarter cup of almonds for a snack (200 calories), and a four-ounce cod fillet for dinner (100 calories). You can divvy up your calories however you like during the day. “But better to have no or very little carbohydrates,” he says. While you’ll want to eat healthy foods the other five days of the week, you don’t have to worry about counting calories or avoiding carbs.

“You can jump right into it,” he adds, “although it may be easier if you start off with just one day a week for a month or two.” He says you can expect to feel hungry and irritable for the first few weeks. You might also have headaches. “But by the end of the first month, we’ve found almost everyone has adapted and there are no symptoms,” he says.

It may eventually turn out that longer periods of true fasting—say, going 24 hours or even several days without any food at all—could be even more beneficial. “There’s some evidence that the longer you do a complete fast, the more benefit you get,” Horne says.

Research from Valter Longo, a professor of gerontology and director of the Longevity Institute at the University of Southern California, has found that fasting for four or five consecutive days a month may extend life and reduce disease risks. But again, more human data is needed—especially when it comes to fasting’s effects on older or sick adults.

“I suggest people talk to their physician first,” Horne says. He also warns that intermittent fasting is not a silver bullet. “There’s no amount of exercise or fasting that can overcome a bad diet or an unhealthy lifestyle,” he says.

The research on intermittent fasting is exciting. But the old rules of good health still apply.

#127 StevesPetRat

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 07:41 AM

I think it's most natural to be physically active when fasting. Consider that animals fast during their migrations. This is sorta built into all of us by evolution (the usual reason for migration is exhaustion of resources, and so you set on a journey and you generally don't get to eat until you arrive to a new place). To me, being physically active when fasting feels very natural and I sorta even crave it. Even CR'd lab rodents increase their activity by 50%. And when I began fasting, I noticed that I instinctively did the same. It just felt good.

 

Anyway, fasting can be fun, and not just Puritanical insane misery.


Interesting. I just did a 48 hour fast. On the 2nd day, although I am not in great shape, I got on the elliptical and did 2 hours at the pace that usually leaves me tired after 45 minutes. I felt like I could easily have gone 2 more hours but didn't want to overdo it.

#128 Nate-2004

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 06:21 PM

I'd been meaning to post this in response the other day but hadn't had time.

 

L-Carnitine plays an important role in lipid transport and fat oxidation as a part of ketosis.

 

L-Carnitine induces autophagy and improves mitochondrial quality control

https://www.scienced...026049517302494

 

L-Carnitine ameliorates hunger during fasting:

https://nutritionj.b...475-2891-13-110

 

EGCG stimulates autophagy and lipid transport:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24489859

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5537795/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23754277

 

EGCG better taken without food:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4665468/

 

 

 


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#129 Nate-2004

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 06:25 PM

I'm panicking here because I was under the impression that fasting helped improve insulin function and might even help reverse type 2 diabetes, not give a person type 2 diabetes. I've heard rumors that fasting and the keto diet can actually make things worse but it's been spotty between claims to the contrary. Clearly there is not enough study on fasting in humans and too much reliance on rat data.
 
I've been fasting in different ways over the past couple of years. I've kept my ideal weight and even lost a good amount of belly fat even if I temporarily gained it back at certain points. For a while I would fast 5 days a month, and that worked to keep the weight off. Then I more recently began to do alternate day fasting which I found easier to maintain. I have been doing that for the last 6 weeks. It even helped with my life long condition of essential tremor. I also hoped it would help with the other anti-aging benefits. I was wrong apparently. Glycation is not good.
 
Before all this started my A1C in January 2018 was 5.2. Earlier this year it was 5.4, and now today I learn it is 5.8. That is not good. It may even explain some of the soreness I've been feeling in my forearms which originally I'd attributed to pull-ups at the gym. Also when I first began I was very concerned about my fasted blood sugar levels, which has never really improved at all, 120's sometimes. Then I learned from 23 & me data that I'm prone to the dawn phenomenon. So I just wait till lunch to eat. My post prandial blood sugar was always lower and still is which still doesn't make sense either.
 
I exercise 4 days a week very consistently, I also use the sauna. I get a lot of greens and veggies in smoothie form, lots of lentils in the form of black and pinto beans which supposedly slow blood sugar. I do have a ravenous sweet tooth but I do try to limit that, figured that would balance out with the fasting. Is my insulin function breaking down? I'd heard fasting increases insulin resistance but I'd also heard the opposite.
 
I'm now panicking and very concerned. I don't know what to do. I'm recently unemployed with no insurance. I can't see a specialist till I'm back at work. It makes no sense because I've been losing weight at the normal rate of around 2 lbs a week and I'm looking great shape wise, 17 or 18% body fat at 45 is tough to maintain but it's good enough. My BMI is 24, so on the edge, but I have a ton of muscle.
 
Today is a fasting day, should I just stop fasting? I want to bring the A1C back down, but kind of in despair because the fasting is obviously doing the opposite for me, or I'm doing it wrong. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 11 August 2019 - 06:28 PM.


#130 joesixpack

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 09:49 PM

 

I'm panicking here because I was under the impression that fasting helped improve insulin function and might even help reverse type 2 diabetes, not give a person type 2 diabetes. I've heard rumors that fasting and the keto diet can actually make things worse but it's been spotty between claims to the contrary. Clearly there is not enough study on fasting in humans and too much reliance on rat data.
 
I've been fasting in different ways over the past couple of years. I've kept my ideal weight and even lost a good amount of belly fat even if I temporarily gained it back at certain points. For a while I would fast 5 days a month, and that worked to keep the weight off. Then I more recently began to do alternate day fasting which I found easier to maintain. I have been doing that for the last 6 weeks. It even helped with my life long condition of essential tremor. I also hoped it would help with the other anti-aging benefits. I was wrong apparently. Glycation is not good.
 
Before all this started my A1C in January 2018 was 5.2. Earlier this year it was 5.4, and now today I learn it is 5.8. That is not good. It may even explain some of the soreness I've been feeling in my forearms which originally I'd attributed to pull-ups at the gym. Also when I first began I was very concerned about my fasted blood sugar levels, which has never really improved at all, 120's sometimes. Then I learned from 23 & me data that I'm prone to the dawn phenomenon. So I just wait till lunch to eat. My post prandial blood sugar was always lower and still is which still doesn't make sense either.
 
I exercise 4 days a week very consistently, I also use the sauna. I get a lot of greens and veggies in smoothie form, lots of lentils in the form of black and pinto beans which supposedly slow blood sugar. I do have a ravenous sweet tooth but I do try to limit that, figured that would balance out with the fasting. Is my insulin function breaking down? I'd heard fasting increases insulin resistance but I'd also heard the opposite.
 
I'm now panicking and very concerned. I don't know what to do. I'm recently unemployed with no insurance. I can't see a specialist till I'm back at work. It makes no sense because I've been losing weight at the normal rate of around 2 lbs a week and I'm looking great shape wise, 17 or 18% body fat at 45 is tough to maintain but it's good enough. My BMI is 24, so on the edge, but I have a ton of muscle.
 
Today is a fasting day, should I just stop fasting? I want to bring the A1C back down, but kind of in despair because the fasting is obviously doing the opposite for me, or I'm doing it wrong. 

 

Sorry to hear about all that, hope things work out on the job front.

 

You might consider one of the online pharmacies, with the online Doctor that prescribes medication. I would think your test results would be enough for a Metformin prescription, or perhaps something else to prevent further A1C increases.



#131 sthira

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 02:38 AM

Use Cronometer, or some other dietary tracker, and record what you’re actually eating. Measure it, weigh it, record it. Do it! What you’re actually eating, and in what precise amounts, may surprise you. The brain is tricky — you may be ignoring certain habits? You’ve mentioned a sweet tooth — I’d quantify that, what does a sweet tooth mean in actual food choices and in what amounts? Get objective.

Another thing, for me, whenever I drink greens and vegetables in even the healthiest of smoothies it sends my BG drastically higher than when I just greens by chewing and eating normally. Maybe this is affecting your numbers? Even kale, spinach, chard, avocado... if drunk down in a fast-acting smoothie, with no added fruit, it’ll tend to send my BG off to the races.

#132 Nate-2004

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 01:21 PM

Damn. The issue with the smoothies is I can't stand veggies and I never will. I've had to trick myself into eating them with smoothies and mixing them into other food. Unfortunately the mixing part is tricky and limited. The smoothies don't have fruit other than blueberries but I can see what you mean. I guess I'll have to torture myself daily just to bring this back down if cutting out sweets entirely doesn't work. I assumed fasting every other day would be enough to bring down an average, apparently not, even despite the weight loss.

 

I'm trying a glucose tolerance test tomorrow to see what happens.


Edited by Nate-2004, 12 August 2019 - 01:23 PM.


#133 sthira

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 01:57 PM

I think few people are thrilled about eating vegetables, right? I mean, we love sweets and fats, and that diet’s been bred into us for eons. I don’t drool much for steamed broccoli and kale. But here’s something that’s helped me: adding high quality olive oil has done wonders for my enjoyment of vegetables. I enjoy them steamed vegetables, put in some spices, drizzle some olive oil, and yum — eating this way day after week after month after year has radically changed my taste buds. Now, I take a bite out of something processed like cake or whatever it’s the sweetness is really nasty and overpowering. The fake sweetness of processed foods is just too much. I can’t do it. So if I can change my sweet tooth habits, you can, too.

Use cronometer, it really does help to get a handle on what you’re actually eating rather than what you think you’re eating.

Also, maybe try doing something strenuous after eating, some activity that raises your heart rate. Run up and down the stairs for a few minutes. Doesn’t need to be complicated or exhaustive exercise, but doing something breath-taking might help lower you post meal numbers.

#134 Nate-2004

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 03:26 PM

I actually looked into this, I don't think it's the smoothies, since 99% of the time I'm adding blueberries which even slow the absorption of sugar water, much less blended broccoli and other veggies. 

 

https://nutritionfac...gar-absorption/

 

It's likely the sweet tooth. I did read that starting off the day with veggies and lentils can really improve things despite what you eat later in the day. I do think that it is most definitely ice cream and chocolate and other things I'm addicted to. Despite all the healthy things I eat and do, eating those must not have helped, even with all the fasting.  I'm trying the glucose tolerance test tomorrow to see if my insulin function is fine. If it is (despite the fact that my fasted blood sugar is always too high), then I dunno. 

 

I'll just have to cut out all my favorite things I guess. I hate that I have to torture deprive myself of my most beloved pleasures to stay young.


Edited by Nate-2004, 12 August 2019 - 03:26 PM.


#135 sthira

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 04:54 PM

I hear ya, man. Fasting isn’t a solution to aging or to correcting all bad habits. But I guess you are weighing this:

I'm panicking here because .... my A1C in January 2018 was 5.2. Earlier this year it was 5.4, and now today I learn it is 5.8...

Against this:

I'll just have to cut out all my favorite things I guess. I hate that I have to torture deprive myself of my most beloved pleasures to stay young.

And it’s shades of gray. You probably don’t need to cut out all your favorite things, torture and deprive yourself of your most beloved pleasures. That would be hideous. What are we, Puritans? Fuck that... What would be the point of living if you’re eliminating your beloved pleasures just for some mostly preliminary fasting science outcomes?

But if you know your pleasures are hurting your body, are these really pleasures?

Fasting isn’t a cure all, as you know. Maybe you need a reminder of this from time to time. I know I do. I think — I’m doing all this fasting crap, and I don’t seem to be aging any less quickly than anyone else. I may even be hurting myself. I don’t even know.

But I think fasting seems like an easy, free way to clear the body, and give the organism a rest from the onslaught of a predatory food business model. Fasting is counter-culture. But like some of the clearest voices in the counter-culture say (eg, Longo, Klapper, Fontana, Goldhamer) it’s not the fasting itself that’s providing the anti-aging benefits. It’s the habitual diet that’s presumably slowing (but not stopping or reversing) the aging process.

Cronometer?

...I do think that it is most definitely ice cream and chocolate and other things I'm addicted to. Despite all the healthy things I eat and do, eating those must not have helped, even with all the fasting..


Not that I believe any books can cure addictions, but have you read this one?

The Pleasure Trap: Mastering the Hidden Force that Undermines Health & Happiness https://www.amazon.c...i_1nAuDb6YF5175

Edited by sthira, 12 August 2019 - 05:22 PM.

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#136 joesixpack

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 01:08 AM

 

I'm panicking here because I was under the impression that fasting helped improve insulin function and might even help reverse type 2 diabetes, not give a person type 2 diabetes. I've heard rumors that fasting and the keto diet can actually make things worse but it's been spotty between claims to the contrary. Clearly there is not enough study on fasting in humans and too much reliance on rat data.
 
I've been fasting in different ways over the past couple of years. I've kept my ideal weight and even lost a good amount of belly fat even if I temporarily gained it back at certain points. For a while I would fast 5 days a month, and that worked to keep the weight off. Then I more recently began to do alternate day fasting which I found easier to maintain. I have been doing that for the last 6 weeks. It even helped with my life long condition of essential tremor. I also hoped it would help with the other anti-aging benefits. I was wrong apparently. Glycation is not good.
 
Before all this started my A1C in January 2018 was 5.2. Earlier this year it was 5.4, and now today I learn it is 5.8. That is not good. It may even explain some of the soreness I've been feeling in my forearms which originally I'd attributed to pull-ups at the gym. Also when I first began I was very concerned about my fasted blood sugar levels, which has never really improved at all, 120's sometimes. Then I learned from 23 & me data that I'm prone to the dawn phenomenon. So I just wait till lunch to eat. My post prandial blood sugar was always lower and still is which still doesn't make sense either.
 
I exercise 4 days a week very consistently, I also use the sauna. I get a lot of greens and veggies in smoothie form, lots of lentils in the form of black and pinto beans which supposedly slow blood sugar. I do have a ravenous sweet tooth but I do try to limit that, figured that would balance out with the fasting. Is my insulin function breaking down? I'd heard fasting increases insulin resistance but I'd also heard the opposite.
 
I'm now panicking and very concerned. I don't know what to do. I'm recently unemployed with no insurance. I can't see a specialist till I'm back at work. It makes no sense because I've been losing weight at the normal rate of around 2 lbs a week and I'm looking great shape wise, 17 or 18% body fat at 45 is tough to maintain but it's good enough. My BMI is 24, so on the edge, but I have a ton of muscle.
 
Today is a fasting day, should I just stop fasting? I want to bring the A1C back down, but kind of in despair because the fasting is obviously doing the opposite for me, or I'm doing it wrong. 

 

Hi Nate, you might want to take a look at this reddit post. It discusses a phenomenon in which rapamycin use can cause a form of glucose intolerance know as benevolent psuedo-diabetes, which is not detrimental.

 

The same thing can occur with fasting and according to the article, the condition arises when the fast ends and is not harmful.

 

There is a link to the Nature.com article in the post. Hope this helps.

 

https://www.reddit.c...sus_benevolent/



#137 pamojja

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:04 PM

Before all this started my A1C in January 2018 was 5.2. Earlier this year it was 5.4, and now today I learn it is 5.8. That is not good.
 
HbA1c can be easily falsified by changes to the life-cycle of hemoglobin. Usually at 3 month, if longer it accumulates more glycation, and vice-versa. In my case probably taking high-dose vitamin C in average lowered HbA1c by 0.6% calculated from average blood glucose (source).
 
Me too, before 7 years after a 1-week water-fast, experienced some blood-glucose control-loss, which normalized later. Just now am in a similiar episode, where I come to think the first time might have been an unrelated coincidence.
 
I've seen jumps of HbA1c from one test to the next, like from 5% to 6.2% and back to 5.2% within 1 year again. In average it's been 5.1 and calculated (from average blood glucose) 5.7%. The latest 4.6% (calculated 6%). One can't give too much credence to a 1-time off value. I usually also test fasting and postprandial glucose, and fasting insulin or c-peptide to calculate insulin-resistance (HOMA-IR).
 
I do have some insulin resistance, going up or down with each additional test, but in average not having worsened the last 10 years.


#138 sthira

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 02:33 PM

I think these blood tests are snapshots in time. Your doctor may tell you this, too. Numbers rise and numbers fall within the dynamic walking, talking weird bags of chemical-animal that all of us present to the world. Look for general trends, keeping in mind blood tests are rough guides.

But if my HbA1c raised from 5.2 to 5.4 to 5.8 during the course of a year or two, I’d be curious but not panicked. I mean, if you have a sweet tooth then you have a sweet tooth, and that sweet tooth, depending upon the sweetness of tooth, has consequences. There are no free lunches. So fasting, as close to a free lunch as we have right now, may be limited in protecting against and repairing the damages.

Monitoring habitual diet and occasional pleasure excursions provide better hints about why your numbers are the way they are, imho...

Continuously monitored BG devices, when affordable, will be a step forward for those of us who give a damn about such things.

#139 xEva

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 05:42 PM

Nate,re blood glucose levels, imo it's not so much the quantity and content of the food you eat but your liver making more glucose. If I understood you correctly, your A1C tests worsened during your alternative day fasting period. I believe your fasting schedule is at fault.

 

After a fast, liver keeps churning out more glucose than when you ate daily (likely there is a reference for this, though I'm not gonna look for it). Liver does so in response to certain hormones induced by the fast. I'm not sure why it does not go 'back to normal' right away. I always assumed that it was due to 'metabolic inertia' -- but what does it mean?  Maybe the gene expression induced by fasting does not change that easily?

 

Don't know how to combat this (other than possibly metrformin). I'm pretty sure your A1C tests will improve when you change your routine to something more steady.

 

PS

basically, I believe there are 2 metabolic modes, based on fat and based on glucose. It's not easy to switch from one to another (experience shows that a period of adaptation is always required). I think mixing the two haphazardly induces chaotic methylation pattern / gene expression and, as a result, things stop working smoothly.


Edited by xEva, 17 August 2019 - 06:10 PM.

  • Good Point x 1

#140 Nate-2004

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 05:17 AM

Nate,re blood glucose levels, imo it's not so much the quantity and content of the food you eat but your liver making more glucose. If I understood you correctly, your A1C tests worsened during your alternative day fasting period. I believe your fasting schedule is at fault.

 

After a fast, liver keeps churning out more glucose than when you ate daily (likely there is a reference for this, though I'm not gonna look for it). Liver does so in response to certain hormones induced by the fast. I'm not sure why it does not go 'back to normal' right away. I always assumed that it was due to 'metabolic inertia' -- but what does it mean?  Maybe the gene expression induced by fasting does not change that easily?

 

Don't know how to combat this (other than possibly metrformin). I'm pretty sure your A1C tests will improve when you change your routine to something more steady.

 

PS

basically, I believe there are 2 metabolic modes, based on fat and based on glucose. It's not easy to switch from one to another (experience shows that a period of adaptation is always required). I think mixing the two haphazardly induces chaotic methylation pattern / gene expression and, as a result, things stop working smoothly.

 

Maybe so, I lose weight fast doing it, even faster than the longer fasts, but the long term effects are obviously not good.

 

Alternate day fasting has really only been studied so far as weight loss.

 

I think just getting my ravenous sweet tooth under control would go a long way but so would a little metformin. I dunno what to do about keeping the weight off though.







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