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I think I might have caused my mother Hemorrhagic Stroke via Grape Seed Extract & E; What's next?

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#1 fighter

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:48 AM


My mother was rushed to the ER and they found that she suffered from a brain hemorrhage on the left side. Her right eye has lost vision, neurosurgeon said surgery wasn't warranted but she'll be transferred to her HMO facility, she's currently at the ICU stable. Her motor skills seems fine but still wobbly walking her cognition seems fine they said. She's in her 60s. I've put her on GSE for hypertension for the longest time alongside N-3. just so last week carelessly also added vitamin E 400 IU and increased her fish oil. I hope this could help other people who may mean well but can actually put their loved ones in more danger. I've been crying for 3 days straight I don't think I could ever forgive myself, but I'm writing here to ask opinions on what's best after this besides rehab, or which procedures or PT protocol or other Hemorrhagic Stroke treatments out there are best that I can discuss with her doctors. Thank you and please keep her in your thoughts

Edited by fighter, 16 May 2017 - 01:51 AM.

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#2 fighter

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 05:27 AM

Edit: Hopefully, her right vision comes back to normal. My sister said she can see a bit in the right eye now. Checking in with the doctor tomorrow.


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#3 joelcairo

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 05:41 AM

Forgive yourself. 1. You were trying to do the best thing for her health. 2. Nobody will ever know all the factors that contributed to the stroke (unless maybe if the doctors find evidence of a physical abnormality), so there's no point speculating. 3. It doesn't sound like she was taking unusually high amounts of anything. Probably millions of people take similar combinations of supplements with no ill effects and perhaps some benefit.


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#4 tintinet

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:40 AM

Just as likely those suppliments helped reduce the severity of her stroke, rather than being the cause, ISTM.
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#5 pamojja

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:33 AM

Also consider that statistically always those who medicate or take supplements instead, in most case do so by trying to slow down a disease process. Therefore an adverse event will always be more likely with those medicating or supplementing. Without any necessary causal link.

 

An other example in my case because of a PAD, take almost every natural anticoagulant available at high doses without difficulties (incredibly more than your mother was taking). However, if I add only 1 baby aspirin I get immediately bloody stools. Sure, all the naturals are confounding, but the one agent which 'brakes the camels back' is clearly the baby aspirin.

 

Then just had a brain MRI done. Where they reported I would have an old infarcation in the left Cerebellum. Now can only theorize if this happened with one of those nasty 4 falciparum malarias I experienced long ago, and which could have turned cerebral? Or after my deepest dive down to 40 m with a nitrogen intoxication? Or it happened recently, and wasn't even mentioned because of the many anticoagulants I'm already taking? - I probably will never know.


Edited by pamojja, 16 May 2017 - 09:39 AM.

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#6 pamojja

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:58 AM

Once I marked everything I take in this list from NaturalStandard:

 

 

Agents That May Increase Risk of Bleeding

 

 

Agents reported to cause clinically significant bleeding in case report(s)

 

Garlic (Allium sativum), ginger, Ginkgo biloba, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens).

 

 

Agents that may increase risk of bleeding (based on evidence from basic science, animal study, human case reports/trials, expert opinion, or anecdote)

 

Acacia, acerola, aconite, agrimony, alfalfa (Medicago sativa)*, aloe, alpha-linolenic acid, alpinia, American ginseng (Panax quinquifolius), American pawpaw, Andrographis paniculata Nees, angelica (Angelica archangelica)*, angel's trumpet, anise (Pimpinella anisum)*, aniseed, annatto, aortic acid, arabinogalactan, arginine (L-arginine), aristolochia, arnica (Arnica montana), asafetida (Ferula asafetida)*, ashwagandha (Withania somnifera L.), aspen bark**, astragalus, avocado (Persea americana), babassu, banaba, barley, Bear's garlic, Bellis perennis, beta-sitosterol, bilberry (Vaccinium myrtillus), birch (Betula barosma)**, black cohosh (Cimifuga racemosa)**, black currant, bladderwrack (Fucus vesiculosis), blessed thistle, bogbean (Menyanthes trifoliata), boldo (Peumus boldus), borage seed oil, breviscapine, bromelain (Anas comosus), bupleurum, burdock (Arctium lappa), calamus, calendula, capsicum, cat's claw (Uncaria tomentosa), celery (Apium graveolens)*, chamomile (Matricaria recutita)*, chaparral (Larrea tridentate (DC) Coville, Larrea divaricata Cav.), chia, chlorella, chondroitin sulfate, cinnamon*, clove (Eugenia aromatica), codonopsis, coenzyme Q10, coleus (Coleus forskohlii), coltsfoot, cordyceps (Cordyceps sinensis), cowhage, cranberry, daisy, dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)*, danshen (Salvia miltiorrhiza), Datura wrightii, desert parsley, devil's claw (Harpagophytum procumbens), DHEA, diallyl trisulfide, dong quai (Angelica sinensis), echistatin, elder, EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), evening primrose oil (Oenothera biennis)***, fennel (Foeniculum vulgare Mill.), fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum)*, feverfew (Tanacetum parthenium)***, fig (Ficus carica), fisetin, fish oil***, flavonoids, flaxseed/flax powder (not a concern with flaxseed oil), forskolin, fucus, gamma-linolenic acid, gamma-oryzanol, Ganoderma japonicum, garlic (Allium sativum)***, genistein, German chamomile, ginger (Zingiber officinalis)***, ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba)***, ginseng (Panax spp.)***, globe artichoke (Cynara scolymus L.), goldenseal (Hydrastis canadensis L.), grape seed (Vitis vinifera), grapefruit juice, green tea (Camellia sinensis), ground ivy, guarana, guggul (Commiphora mukul), gymnema, gymnestra, hawthorn, heartsease**, hirudin, holy basil, horny goat weed, horse chestnut (Aesculus hippocastanum)*, horseradish (Radicula armoracia), jackfruit, jequirity, jiaogulan, juniper, Kan Jang, kava, kelp, kinetin, kiwi, kudzu, lady's mantle, Lathyrus, lavender, lemongrass, leopard's bane (Arnica montana), licorice (liquorice) (Glycyrrhiza glabra)***, ling zhi, lotus, lovage root, male fern (Dryopteris filix-mas), marjoram, meadowsweet (Spirea/Filipendula ulmaria)**, melatonin, methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), mistletoe, modified citrus pectin, mugwort, mullein, nettle, niacin, nopal, nordihydroguairetic acid (NDGA), northern prickly ash, octacosanol, omega-3 fatty acids, onion, oregano, pagoda tree, pantethine, papain, papaw, papaya, parsley (Petroselinum crispum), passion flower (Passiflora incarnata), PC-SPES, peony, policosanol, polypodium, poplar**, populus, prickly ash (Zanthoxylum spp.)*, propolis, PSK, Pycnogenol® (Pinus pinaster ssp. atlantica), quassia (Picrasma excelsa)*, quercetin, quinine, red clover (Trifolium pratense)*, red yeast rice, rehmannia, reishi (Ganoderma lucidum), resveratrol, rhubarb, Roman chamomile, rose hip, rosemary, rue, rutin, safflower, sage, sarsaparilla**, sassafras, savory, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), schisandra, scotch broom, sea buckthorn, seaweed, selenium, SHA-10, shea, shiitake mushroom (Lentinus edodes), Siberian ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus), sorrel, southern prickly ash, soy***, Spanish bayonet (Yucca spp.), spirulina, St. John's wort, star anise, stinging nettle, strawberry, sweet birch**, sweet clover (Melilotus spp.)*, sweet marjoram, sweet woodruff, tamanu, tamarind, tarragon, taurine, tea, thyme, tonka bean, turmeric (Curcuma longa), usnea, vanilla, verbena, vitamin A, vitamin C***, vitamin E***, wasabi, watercress (Nasturtium officinale), wheatgrass, wild carrot, wild lettuce, willow, willow bark (Salix spp.)**, wintergreen**, yarrow, yew, yohimbe.

 

Therefore, according to this list, your mother hasn't even taken 1 of the 4 agents, which have been shown in case reports to may have caused clinically significant bleedings.

 

Very, very unlikely.


Edited by pamojja, 16 May 2017 - 12:08 PM.


#7 Ethic

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:15 PM

@OP Good luck for her recovery, it will happen and it is not your fault as joelcairo said.

You could take a look at stuff that improves cellular biomembranes, like a good balance of unsaturated and saturated plant oils in her diet (virgin olive oil comes to my mind) and phospholipids like sunflower seed lecithin or soy lecithin. Reduction in carbohydrates might come in handy aswell.

Maybe offer your mother some fried Tofu with onions and milled black pepper (I've never noticed any cross sensitivity from fried Tofu even though having hay fever allergy).

 

Just like pamojja, I've taken high amounts of various natural anticoagulant and antioxidants (and still do). I've experienced predominantly good but also bad with them.

Half a year ago I got two tooth implantations and it took me an entire day at home to stop the bleeding. It was a mess. I became dizzy in the evening, took my last tissues and increased preasure heavily, breathed hard to maximise blood oxygen content (->coagulation) and finally after an hour or so it stopped.

 

So technically I became a haemophiliac/bleeder at that point. But interestingly the 3 cm wound healed extremely fast after that. One week later, I pulled the suture and it was done. The doctor was impressed.

 

Why I'm telling this anecdote is, because I think there might be a chance of rapid healing for your mother. I wish you the best.



#8 pamojja

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:46 PM

 

Agents reported to cause clinically significant bleeding in case report(s)

 

Garlic (Allium sativum), ginger, Ginkgo biloba, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens).

 

Therefore, according to this list, your mother hasn't even taken 1 of the 4 agents, which have been shown in case reports to may have caused clinically significant bleedings.

 

Very, very unlikely.

 

On the other hand, there are about 60 deaths - not just clinically significant bleedings - with aspirin every year in the US alone.
 


Edited by pamojja, 16 May 2017 - 04:46 PM.


#9 fighter

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:38 PM

The doctor said they're waiting for her clot to get reabsorbed on its own. Is there any supplement that can help this? Will low dose liposomal Vitamin C help or worsen this? One study I saw on Vit C was only for ischemic stroke patients. Hemorrhagic stroke cases were excluded



#10 aconita

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 10:53 PM

Was it intracerebal or subarachnoid?



#11 fighter

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 03:35 AM

Was it intracerebal or subarachnoid?

 

What I only got from them is that it is neither aneurysm nor AVN, but I will most definitely ask it now and speak to them in person by Thursday if they won't email back by then. Thank you for this very good question. Her right eye has partial vision loss which we're hoping can still be reversed. She does not seem to have any other physical disability thankfully and got discharged 4 days after staying at the ER/ICU.



#12 aconita

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:26 PM

Just to clarify the difference:

 

http://www.stroke.or...orrhagic-stroke

 

As you may notice only subarachnoid hemorrhage could eventually be linked to blood thinners which in your case I would rule out as a cause anyway, high blood pressure/hypertension being by far the most likely cause.

 



#13 MikeDC

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:45 AM

Give her Niagen immediately to prevent damage and enhance recovery.
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#14 fighter

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 04:31 AM

Just to clarify the difference:

 

http://www.stroke.or...orrhagic-stroke

 

As you may notice only subarachnoid hemorrhage could eventually be linked to blood thinners which in your case I would rule out as a cause anyway, high blood pressure/hypertension being by far the most likely cause.

 

\Doctor said it's intracerebral but that blood thinners can cause either.



#15 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 01:14 PM

If there are supplements you should give a woman of old age it should firstly be birth control pills, because they have seriously strong anti-aging effects and can reverse several diseases of aging including atherosclerosis. Secondly you should give an anticoagulant supplements like niacin (which is good for lots of diseases) or maybe fish oil, to protect against the increased risk of strokes caused by estrogen. Progesterone itself protects against strokes to some extent but while doing this it also counteracts the positive effects on the heart by estrogen, so it needs to be balanced.

Thirdly, you should look into adding vitamin K2 (mk4) for calcium control, to prevent arteries from getting calcified. This will normalize her blood pressure to that of a young girl and pretty much prevent strokes from occurring.

 

Do not let her take prescription blood thinners as they all rapidly calcify the arteries and seriously increase the risk of death.

 

So to summarize what you should give her:

Female hormones, primarily estrogen (for heart, cognitive and psychological, sexual and aesthetic and many other benefits).

Some natural anti-coagulant to prevent strokes from increased coagulation by estrogen (progesterone can both be good and bad)--I STRONGLY advice you to use nicotinic acid.

Vitamin K2 to remove arterial calcification.

 


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#16 ceridwen

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 01:24 PM

Pills containing estrogen can exacerbate Alzheimer's if taken 5 years after the start of menopause. This is also of particular concern after a stroke of course
5 years or above I should say. Estrogen then becomes dangerous

#17 osris

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 06:17 PM

With respect to the OP and his mother, but his post is irresponsible and unintentionally fear mongering.


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#18 fighter

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 09:33 PM

With respect to the OP and his mother, but his post is irresponsible and unintentionally fear mongering.

 

First of all, this was my experience and my perception of what happened as her lab markers and general health and well being were normal prior to supplement administration, so I resent my mere sharing of what happened as "irresponsible" since I have zero control of how you receive the message. That burden is upon you. Secondly, I was in a state of shock, grief, stress and a whirlwind of emotions when I initially wrote the post.

 

Maybe you can try megadosing on d-alpha tocopherol for 3 weeks straight 1000iu minimum  alongside 3000-4000mg EPA DHA 2:1 ratio and get back to us with anecdotal.


Edited by fighter, 28 January 2020 - 09:39 PM.

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#19 osris

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 05:58 AM

I'm sorry. I overreacted. 

 

How is your mother now, by the way? I hope she recovered.


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