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How Many Hours Before Autophagy Begins in Fasting?

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#61 Michael

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 05:56 PM

RWhigham wrote: i'm going to take time to answer the sweeping statements with no references (except himself and he is an authority) in the preceding post from Michael, our resident SENS and CRAN expert.


I'm not sure how you missed them, but I cited these two papers.
 

 

This isn't actually how this works. The size, composition of lipid droplets doesn't simply reflect dietary intake; and saturated and unsaturated fats both promote lipophagy.


Differential roles of unsaturated and saturated fatty acids on autophagy and apoptosis in hepatocytes
The unsaturated fatty acid, oleic acid, promoted the formation of triglyceride-enriched lipid droplets. In contrast, the saturated fatty acid, palmitic acid, was poorly converted into triglyceride-enriched lipid droplets

 


Ahem. First, your quote from me is a bit truncated, and your summary of the "Differential roles" abstract is missing some key elements. What I said in full was,
 

Michael wrote: The formation, size, and persistence of lipid droplets is regulated by a variety of things, of which fat intake is a very minor one [...]

 

The composition of lipid droplets doesn't simply reflect dietary intake; and saturated and unsaturated fats both promote lipophagy at the regulatory level, beyond their presence in lipid droplets, via different mechanisms: in general, unsaturated fatty acids stimulate autophagy and protect against apoptosis, whereas saturated FA inhibit it and promote apoptosis (but there are poorly-understood exceptions).


And what the "Differential roles" paper says is,
 

The unsaturated fatty acid, oleic acid, promoted the formation of triglyceride-enriched lipid droplets and induced autophagy but had a minimal effect on apoptosis. In contrast, the saturated fatty acid, palmitic acid, was poorly converted into triglyceride-enriched lipid droplets, suppressed autophagy, and significantly induced apoptosis. Subsequent studies revealed that palmitic acid-induced apoptosis suppressed autophagy by inducing caspase-dependent Beclin 1 cleavage, indicating cross-talk between apoptosis and autophagy. Moreover, our data suggest that the formation of triglyceride-enriched lipid droplets and induction of autophagy are protective mechanisms against fatty acid-induced lipotoxicity.


So, we see here that "The formation and composition of lipid droplets doesn't simply reflect dietary intake:" part of the reason why you see more PUFA in LD is because saturated fatty acids are resistant to incorporation, even when present. And, on the flip side, PUFA induce autophagy even as they form LD, facilitating LD clearance after initial sequestration in LD, whereas palmitic acid fails to do so under these circumstances (with the result of lipotoxic apoptosis).

Here is another paper reflecting this general schema:
 

Oleic acid supplementation leads to triglyceride accumulation and is well tolerated, whereas excess palmitic acid is poorly incorporated into triglyceride and causes apoptosis. Unsaturated fatty acids rescue palmitate-induced apoptosis by channeling palmitate into triglyceride pools and away from pathways leading to apoptosis. Moreover, in the setting of impaired triglyceride synthesis, oleate induces lipotoxicity. Our findings support a model of cellular lipid metabolism in which unsaturated fatty acids serve a protective function against lipotoxicity though promotion of triglyceride accumulation.


However, as I noted, there are exceptions: under some conditions, SaFA also promote autophagy via an AMPK-, PKR-, and JNK1-dependent process.
 

RWhigham wrote:
The role of lipid droplet formation in the protection of unsaturated fatty acids against palmitic acid induced lipotoxicity to rat insulin-producing cells

Long-chain unsaturated NEFAs strongly induce the formation of lipid droplets ... On the other hand the saturated NEFA palmitic acid only induced minor lipid droplet formation ...

Take away: LD's form from unsaturated fatty acids


So, again we see that even when present, palmitic acid as a representative SaFA are resistant to LD formation, meaning that "The composition of lipid droplets doesn't simply reflect dietary intake."

And what happens when you look at the interaction of different FA in this process?
 

PA [palmitic acid] induced cell death in a dose dependent manner up to 1.5 mM, but AA [arachidonic acid] protected substantially lipotoxicity caused by PA at even low concentration of 62 μM, at which monounsaturated fatty acids including palmitoleic acid (POA) and oleic acid (OA) did not protect as much as AA did. ...

 

Based on the observations that polyunsaturated AA generated competently cellular droplets at low concentration within the cytosol of myotubes compared with monounsaturated fatty acids, and AA-driven lipid droplets were also enhanced in the presence of PA, we hypothesized that incorporation of harmful PA into inert triglyceride (TG) may be responsible for the protective effects of AA against PA-induced lipotoxicity. To address this assumption, C2C12 myotubes were incubated with fluorescent probed-PA [...] in the presence of AA and their subsequent lipid profiles were analyzed. The analyses of lipids on thin layer chromatograpy (TLC) showed that fluorescent PA analogue was rapidly channeled into AA-driven TG droplets.

 

Lipid Droplets in Health and Disease
LD biogenesis is stimulated upon an increase in intracellular free FA levels.
Uptake of individual fatty acids into adipose tissue in relation to their presence in the diet
Shows that adipose cells store dietary fats in the preferential order: monounsaturated, n-6 polyunsaturated, saturated. So with what most people eat, the FA's stored and then released by adipose cells are mostly not saturated and will stimulate LD biogenesis--directly related to a diet high in unsaturated fats.

Take away: Dietary unsaturated fats increase LD's


Actual takeaway: even for storage in adiopose tissue, there is a preferential order — that is, a regulated order, independent of dietary intake — in which cells store fatty acids into LD. "In relation to the amount fed, storage of fatty acids differed (P < 0.01) between classes (n−3 polyunsaturated < saturated < n−6 polyunsaturated < monounsaturated); oleic acid was stored in the greatest amounts." Because adipocytes are primarily a storage organ, the preferential order in adiopocytes mostly reflects the differential incorporation of different FA into chylomycrons: in other cell types, as documented above (and below), there is a greater degree of selective incorporation within the cell itself.
 

RWhigham wrote: The single large "LD" in an adipose cell is in a constant state of simultaneously storing and removing (via lipolysis) fatty acids and glycerol molecules from the LD. There is no lipophagy there. The adipose LD is much too large. On the other hand, non-adipose cells make relatively small LD's. They appear to change size through fission and fusion much like mitochondria, and the smaller ones are easily degraded.


Autophagy certainly regulates lipid droplet dynamics differently in adipocytes than other tissues. "Adipocytes represent the primary cell type of adipose tissue and are responsible for storing excess calories as triglycerides in their cellular lipid droplets without the common lipotoxicity experienced by other cells under these conditions (Konige et al., 2014). This unparalleled capacity for lipid storage and release upon systemic metabolic demand links the cell biology of the adipocyte and adipose tissue physiology to whole body metabolism (Fig. 1)."[source]


RWhigham wrote: In conclusion

  • LD's contain mostly unsaturated fats that were at some point consumed
  • When LD's are not removed, they grow in number and size and result in disease.
  • LD removal must be preceded by autophagy
  • In the early stages of autophagy LD's grow in size, so it likely takes awhile before lipophagy kicks in
  • It appears to be lipophagy, not LP lipolysis, that is enabled by autophagy

 

I agree with all of that; I'm not sure why you were adding that additional information (and documentation, which I snipped), which doesn't relate to my response to which you seem to have taken umbrage.


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#62 normalizing

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 03:12 AM

 

 

but you still need to fast, at least a couple of days, to induce ketosis. It takes weeks on a diet.

 

but if temporary hunger is such an unbearable thing, why not use appetite suppressants? they work by inducing autophagy and likely also lipolysis. The thing is, if you have not eaten in a while and yet you're not hungry your body is getting its nutrients somehow. How?

 

probably from nutritious dying bacteria cells in the gut. i assume since bacteria constantly feeds from food we consume, they are nutricious enough on their own when dying and being reabsorbed by the body. i assume only this that starvation probably depletes you completely of any bacteria


regarding ketosis, this is another good thing; http://www.medicalne...cles/319375.php

 

 

The link is not about ketosis but omega3 and gut bacteria.

 

Re your answer -- ?! shocking  :|o  sounds like you need to review GI tract, where most of bacteria reside, and where/how digestion/absorption takes place.

 

and I intended my question as rhetoric. I was driving at you recalling experiences when you lost appetite and hoped that this would lead to realization that whenever that happened --for whatever reason-- the body was living off liver glycogen supplemented by autophagy in tissues that needed it most. In other words, you were fasting -- without hunger pangs! :)

 

Lets see, when we tend to lose appetite:

some infections, fever, poisoning, trauma,  inordinary dose of radiation...

what else? 

ah! heat stroke (or just overheating)

there must be more..

enlarged spleen.,

 

Or take hormetics or appetite suppressants. They must press the right kind of metabolic buttons -- otherwise how do they work?

 

Black coffee and cigs always worked for me, though there are healthier choices out there. Why not use them, when you want to fast?

 

 

coffee and cigs prevented you from eating? i know cigs will do that to me too but coffee always makes my stomach grown and requires some filler not sure how and why but it does. same as green tea. these things are like pipe cleaners, run through and make me use the toilet quite often and then require food no matter what. i cannot see how that will help with fasting at all!

 

what i usually do to lose appetite is hangovers or overmasturbation believe it or not, actually shuts my body down in such a way i cannot tolerate food at all, but thats not healthy in anyway so not proud of experiencing it :(
 



#63 normalizing

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 03:15 AM

 

...starvation probably depletes you completely of any bacteria


Fasting for a couple of days or weeks isn't starvation. We slob moderns in privilege can go quite a while on nothing but liquid:

"A 27-year-old male patient fasted under supervision for 382 days and has subsequently maintained his normal weight..." https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2495396/

And when we finally do kick the bucket and inevitably lose dreamy immortality, billions of bacteria will begin doing their thing -- breaking down cells. Dead human bodies are yumola for creatures large and small:

"As the cells die, bacteria within the body begin breaking them down. Enzymes in the pancreas cause the organ to digest itself. The body soon takes on a gruesome appearance and smell. Decomposing tissue emits a green substance, as well as gasses such as methane and hydrogen sulfide. The lungs expel fluid through the mouth and nose.

"Insects and animals certainly take notice of all this. A human body provides sustenance and a great place for insects to lay eggs. A fly trying to find its way in this crazy, mixed-up world can eat well on a corpse, and then lay up to 300 eggs upon it that will hatch within a day..."

http://science.howst.../body-farm1.htm

 

 

but the beneficial bacteria in the gut do feed on whatever you throw at them, are you saying after you die they become zombies and eat flesh?? this is hard to believe seriously. i dont think they can go the extra mile and chew through the guts to get their nutrients after you have starved to death.

also that case you put, very very unique and phenomenonal ive never read or heard of this before and that is impossible in all honesty. i have also read of people holding their breath for amazing amounts of time under water, do you believe most people can do that? of course not, you just posted an amazing case, which i find interesting, thank you

 



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#64 sthira

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 05:11 AM

but the beneficial bacteria in the gut do feed on whatever you throw at them, are you saying after you die they become zombies and eat flesh?? this is hard to believe seriously. i dont think they can go the extra mile and chew through the guts to get their nutrients after you have starved to death.

After we die "....our gut bacteria begin to digest the intestines – and then the surrounding tissues – from the inside out, using the chemical cocktail that leaks out of damaged cells as a food source. Then they invade the capillaries of the digestive system and lymph nodes, spreading first to the liver and spleen, then into the heart and brain...."

This is a fun: https://mosaicscienc...s-after-you-die

"Far from being ‘dead’, a rotting corpse is teeming with life. A growing number of scientists view a rotting corpse as the cornerstone of a vast and complex ecosystem..."

also that case you put [https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2495396/] very very unique and phenomenonal ive never read or heard of this before and that is impossible in all honesty. i have also read of people holding their breath for amazing amounts of time under water, do you believe most people can do that? of course not, you just posted an amazing case, which i find interesting, thank you

Fasting of we the people definitely needs more intensive study, forget them the rodents. The outer limits -- how much no food can we the consenting forgo -- have hardly been touched by modern science. But one aspect seems clear: we, you, me, all quietly reading lurkers, all humans evolved in a rude environment of food scarcity.

We may fast longer than our modern habits dictate. So c'mon, hazy, practice, try a week or two of no food: dare ya. You might be pleasantly surprised at how, after the initial weird wears off, your body's like, I remember this. This is good. Euphoric, sometimes. But shush, don't tell anyone: It Ancient Secret.

Edited by sthira, 15 September 2017 - 05:27 AM.


#65 normalizing

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 09:36 PM

not sure if i can work like this but i did before not eat for days, i got really skinny and i did lose weight and i didnt look too healthy. also, you feel hyper always on the look out as if to find food, sleep can be difficult etc. a lot of side effects really. especially when you have to lift things or run, thats painful



#66 Nate-2004

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 09:44 PM

The beneficial effects of fasting aren't really seen during the fast but during the re-feeding period, perhaps 3 or 4 days after the fasting ends. It helps if you're eating as low carb as possible I think, because then you're not screwing with any gains in insulin sensitivity and drop in insulin levels.

 

Slightly off topic but I watched this earlier, seems like keto might theoretically block, or at least prevent glycation (AGEs).

 


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#67 normalizing

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 03:06 AM

why do people keep saying grains when it comes to carbs, legumes also have tons of crabs but strangely enough beans are associated with very good health outcomes unlike carbs from other sources and i dont get it


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#68 normalizing

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:20 AM

im against marketing and promotions and exploitations and just straight business oriented people trying to make profit off others and i find this quite excitable to me, that each time a human being can deter such deteriorative exploitation by just simply not eating or drinking and standing still as in meditation. thats the way to fight the system, dont eat, drink and just sit in the middle of all only to meditate, and not speak, because by the very wise and amazingly educated lawyers and cops, all you say can be used against you


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#69 Nate-2004

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:42 PM

I agree, and governments are even more exploitative and enable what you're talking about. Also, I agree about beans, legumes have a very interesting effect on blood sugar despite having carbs. The same goes for blueberries.


Edited by Nate-2004, 19 October 2017 - 06:44 PM.


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#70 Believer

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:46 AM

"A 27-year-old male patient fasted under supervision for 382 days and has subsequently maintained his normal weight..." https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2495396/

How the hell is that possible? This must be some sort of junk science. You can't live without food even if you drink water. And that he maintained his weight is even more fantasy-like. I'd expect this study to come out of India.

 

Maybe "fasting" means something special the way that they talk about it? If fasting to them means eating nothing and then eating nothing for over a year, that is absolutely impossible.
 


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#71 sthira

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:04 AM

"A 27-year-old male patient fasted under supervision for 382 days and has subsequently maintained his normal weight..." https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2495396/

How the hell is that possible? This must be some sort of junk science. You can't live without food even if you drink water. And that he maintained his weight is even more fantasy-like. I'd expect this study to come out of India.

Maybe "fasting" means something special the way that they talk about it? If fasting to them means eating nothing and then eating nothing for over a year, that is absolutely impossible.

When you read the paper, you'll see it's spelled out quite plainly.
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#72 sthira

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 04:16 PM

You can't live without food even if you drink water. And that he maintained his weight is even more fantasy-like.

Ah, maybe I see the confusion. The patient didn't maintain his weight during the extreme fast. Indeed, he weighed in at 456 pounds (~207 kg), fasted "382 days," and weighed out at 180 pounds (~82 kg).

So, he lost 276 pounds (~125kg) during his fast.

However, five years after the fast ended, his weight stayed around 196 pounds.

Does that help? He lost a lot of weight during the fast; he was able to keep that weight off years later.

I wouldn't call this "junk science" but I would call it extremely rare. Fasting isn't very well studied in humans, and we who are interested in healthy lifespan extension should support and encourage more human fasting studies.

Why? Because as laid out here: http://mobile.the-sc...unning-on-empty "...Mounting evidence suggests that fasting causes significant changes to various organs and tissue types. The fasting signal likely starts in the liver, the body’s central command for metabolism. But through changes in gene expression and alterations in complex enzymatic pathways, the effects of food deprivation spread throughout the body, from the brain and visceral fat to the muscles and more.

In the liver:

Fasting and time-restricted feeding increases insulin sensitivity, decreases insulin resistance, and lowers blood glucose levels. With prolonged periods of fasting, the liver’s glycogen stores become depleted, and visceral fat is tapped as an energy source, which releases ketones that can be metabolized by neurons and muscle cells.

For the immune system:

Periodic fasting reprograms T-cell populations, tamping down autoimmunity and rescuing immunosenescence. A lack of incoming calories appears to prune away autoimmune T cells, and with refeeding, hematopoietic stem cells are activated to replace T cells, lymphocytes, and other white blood cells. Several fasting studies have also pointed to a decrease in inflammatory cytokines.

For the heart:

Because triglycerides become mobilized for energy in the absence of incoming dietary calories, blood lipid levels tend to go down in a fasting body. Researchers have also seen decreases in blood pressure in fasting animals. In some animal studies of fasting, investigators have recorded decreases in cholesterol.

The brain:

Fasting has improved memory, learning, and neurogenesis in rodents, and has been shown to repair some neurons in mouse models of ischemic stroke.

Delays in cancer:

By making tumor cells more susceptible to chemotherapeutic agents while protecting healthy cells from the treatment’s toxicity, fasting is showing promise in slowing the progression of breast cancers and melanoma in mice."



Indeed, fasting needs more study in healthy people. Meanwhile, here are some helpful references if you're interested in continuing your education into fasting and its potential benefits to, yes, you, too:


W.K. Stewart, L.W. Fleming, “Features of a successful therapeutic fast of 382 days’ duration,” Postgrad Med J, 49:203-9, 1973.

C. Vollmers et al., “Time of feeding and the intrinsic circadian clock drive rhythms in hepatic gene expression,” PNAS, 106:21453-58, 2009.

M. Hatori et al., “Time restricted feeding without reducing caloric intake prevents metabolic diseases in mice fed a high fat diet,” Cell Metab, 15:848-60, 2012.

C.W. Cheng et al., “Fasting-mimicking diet promotes ngn3-driven β-cell regeneration to reverse diabetes,” Cell, 168:775-88, 2017.

K. Marosi, M.P. Mattson, “BDNF mediates adaptive brain and body responses to energetic challenges,” Trends Endocrinol Metab, 25:89-98, 2014.

A.R. Vasconcelos et al., “Intermittent fasting attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced neuroinflammation and memory impairment,” J Neuroinflamm, 11:85, 2014.

Cheng, et al., “Involvement of PGC-1α in the formation and maintenance of neuronal dendritic spines,” Nat Commun, 3:doi:10.1038/ncomms2238, 2012.

A. Cheng, et al., “Mitochondrial SIRT3 mediates adaptive responses of neurons to exercise, and metabolic and excitatory challenges,” Cell Metab, 23:128-42, 2016.

I.Y. Choi et al., “Diet mimicking fasting promotes regeneration and reduces autoimmunity and multiple sclerosis symptoms,” Cell Rep, 15:2136-46, 2016.

S. Di Biase et al., “Fasting-mimicking diet reduces HO-1 to promote T cell-mediated tumor cytotoxicity,” Cancer Cell, 30:136-46, 2016.

D.Y. Fann, et al., “Intermittent fasting attenuates inflammasome activity in ischemic stroke,” Exp Neurol, 257:114-19, 2014.

S. Gill et al., “Time-restricted feeding attenuates age-related cardiac decline in Drosophila,” Science, 347:1265-69, 2015.

S. Gill, S. Panda, “A smartphone app reveals erratic diurnal eating patterns in humans that can be modulated for health benefits,” Cell Metab, 22:789-98, 2015.

J.F. Trepanowski et al., “Effect of alternate-day fasting on weight loss, weight Maintenance, and cardioprotection among metabolically healthy obese adults: A randomized clinical trial,” JAMA Intern Med, doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2017.0936, 2017.

Edited by sthira, 30 October 2017 - 04:25 PM.

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#73 Believer

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 06:28 PM

Ah, maybe I see the confusion. The patient didn't maintain his weight during the extreme fast. Indeed, he weighed in at 456 pounds (~207 kg), fasted "382 days," and weighed out at 180 pounds (~82 kg).


So, he lost 276 pounds (~125kg) during his fast.

However, five years after the fast ended, his weight stayed around 196 pounds.

Does that help? He lost a lot of weight during the fast; he was able to keep that weight off years later.

I wouldn't call this "junk science" but I would call it extremely rare. Fasting isn't very well studied in humans, and we who are interested in healthy lifespan extension should support and encourage more human fasting studies.

I think you misunderstood me. I fast as well and am currently on my second day of water fasting. I just can't believe you can go a year without food. At least you'd need to supplement vitamins and minerals which are flushed out by all the water you take in.

The fact that the study took place in the 1970s also raises a suspicion that it may have been motivated by the hippie or "new age" movements of that time where they mix all sorts of religious beliefs together. For example it could boil down to the nonsense idea of "feeding off the sun," so letting the sun sustain the body with """"energy"""" even though you are eating nothing. In India there have been, as with everything else, so many claims to people going without food for 40 days, a year, 20 years, whatever. It always turns out to be complete nonsense. There is even on Youtube an example of some proclaimed "non eating" Indian who hasn't eaten for years but he was found eating in closed restaurants or something.

 

People have a hard difficult extending their fasts more than 3 days because they become weak and hypoglycemic. Yet the study claims the fasting individual was walking in spite not eating.

 

If it turned out to be true then I would be very interested in knowing if his bones shrunk in length or width. Did he lose height? I have been thinking of trying to induce bone loss so as to shrink my height (for medical reasons). I know fasting for long enough can cause some permanent bone changes.
 


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#74 sthira

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 07:36 PM

[quote name="Believer" post="831473" timestamp="1509388120"]

I think you misunderstood me. I fast as well and am currently on my second day of water fasting. [/quote]

I apologize for misunderstanding you. And congratulations on your second day of a water fast -- awesome. I'm currently on day 5 (not water only, though, I cheat with coffee and kombucha...)



I just can't believe you can go a year without food. At least you'd need to supplement vitamins and minerals which are flushed out by all the water you take in.


The study is pretty damned interesting, and a fascinating read even if you're not down with the science. Evidently, throughout the entire period of 382 days, the guy consumed water, vitamin supplements, and yeast for the first 10 months. He took potassium supplements (Day 93 to Day 162), and sodium supplements (Day 345 to Day 355). Urine and blood collections were taken throughout the experience. Fecal evacuations were infrequent in the later period of the fasting, as the time between stools was averaging from 37-48 days, as the researchers claim.

During the first four months there was a decrease in serum potassium concentration, which is why they administered potassium supplements for the next 10 weeks, which have increased the K levels. After that period no further potassium supplements have been taken, as K serum levels remained normal. There were no further decreases in potassium levels perhaps because there was a sufficient release of potassium from his fat cells to make up for the excretion of potassium through urine?

Researchers noted hypercalcaemia for certain periods within the last 6 months of the fast, but that seemed to spontaneously remit in the last month of the fast.

Plasma urea decreased in the first two weeks but it then remained constant onward at 15-20mg/100ml.

Plasma uric acid, which was high before the fasting, remained constant during the fasting.



The fact that the study took place in the 1970s also raises a suspicion that it may have been motivated by the hippie or "new age" movements of that time where they mix all sorts of religious beliefs together.


Uh, since I'm a dirty hippie myself, complete with dreads and stankin' like incense and patchouli, I'll take this as a compliment. But he was not like me, apparently. Rather, he was an obese Scottish guy looking for doctor's help. He went to clinic, his doctor suggested "stop eating," and so he did. He evidently so "enjoyed" the process that he decided to prolong it out to extremity. And, as a fellow faster yourself, maybe you get the undeniable and strong "high" and senses of well being we often get off fasting, the uplift, it feels good, it feels euphoric, it feels natural and sweet, like it's correct, no matter what anyone else thinks or believes, like a deeper connection to our evolutionary past. Exploration of our hominid limits is, perhaps, one thing that makes life worth living. And perhaps he was into that. Or maybe he was just fat, sick and miserable and wanted relief. The study doesn't mention any new age proclivities he may have had.


In India there have been, as with everything else, so many claims to people going without food for 40 days, a year, 20 years, whatever. It always turns out to be complete nonsense.


Well, yeah, of course, I agree here, and I have street cred. Meaning, I've spent a few years roaming India, wandering countryside on the rails, in and out of ashrams and yoga communities, and of course bullshit artists exist everywhere, and there are loads of 50 year olds posing as 100 year olds in India. In the same breath, though, there are also loads of quiet, contemplative seekers who do stop eating for significant lengths of time and say nothing about it. I know this. So be mindful of broad-stroking an entire beautiful, horrible country with billions of people. India covers a wide range of folks -- ordinary boring to outlandish and bizarre.

Believer wrote:

"People have a hard difficult extending their fasts more than 3 days because they become weak and hypoglycemic. Yet the study claims the fasting individual was walking in spite not eating.[/quote]

Sthira writes: Fasting is a practice. And the first several days, especially for beginners, can be intense. That metabolic shift tends to weed out a lot of people. But I'm five days in right now, I'm in ketosis, and I've more energy than I know what to do with. So I'm writing to you.

But if a man started his fast weighing more than 300 pounds, I see no reason why he couldn't live off his largess for even a year. He did do this.

Believer wrote:

"If it turned out to be true then I would be very interested in knowing if his bones shrunk in length or width. Did he lose height? I have been thinking of trying to induce bone loss so as to shrink my height (for medical reasons). I know fasting for long enough can cause some permanent bone changes."

Sthira writes: I agree with you here that it'd be fascinating to know what became of this strange cat. He underwent this extreme fasting epic in the mid-1960s -- did he live long? He still kicking? What became of him? Maybe this is something you're interested in researching. Invite him here to comment, he'd be like in his 80s now, right.
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#75 Believer

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 09:12 PM

Invite him here to comment, he'd be like in his 80s now, right.

How?

 

How do I know when I should start eating again to avoid killing myself? How long can concentration camp victims survive without food?

Some people pass out from hypoglycemia, I sure don't want to be that guy when I am all by myself in my apartment and nobody would find me to give me sugar.

 

By the way let me add I am surprised it took him so long to lose what he lost. He lost a huge amount but a whole year on no food seems to be slow progress. I know that I can lose a lot of weight if I don't eat. I'd expect his weight loss to have occurred over only 1 month of concentration camp style starvation.


Edited by Believer, 30 October 2017 - 09:15 PM.

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#76 sthira

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 10:04 PM

How do I know when I should start eating again to avoid killing myself? How long can concentration camp victims survive without food?
Some people pass out from hypoglycemia, I sure don't want to be that guy when I am all by myself in my apartment and nobody would find me to give me sugar.


First, don't die. That's important, no shit. No one wants that, and death might cause you to miss the first bridge crossing to longevity escape velocity. Unless you cryonize yourself, is cryonize a verb?

Second, this is a thread about when does autophagy begin, so before we're pelted by spit balls, consider opening a new thread dedicated to you and your fasting journey.

Third, I'm just gonna assume you're a healthy young person who can handle a 1-5/d water only fast? But maybe this assumption isn't right on my part. If you're dealing with specific medical challenges, list them in a new post, and I and maybe others are happy to engage and offer our peculiar support.

Fourth, don't die: again: and I like to think of "fasting" as a practice. It's a little like learning to, say, learn to play the violin. You don't immediately become Itzhak Perlman on day three. So relax into the learning experience. Document it.

Fifth, drink water. Many people mistake being thirsty with being hungry. Is this you?

Sixth, fasting might be great stuff, but keep in mind you're just trying to stay healthy until better anti-aging alternatives emerge from these clinics we're all staring at. Like: targeted senolytics: that might actually do something better, more powerfully to retard aging than fasting or CR(on).

Seventh, fasting is sometimes more difficult for me when I'm holed up in my dark quiet apartment. Have you seen the trees today? If not, drink some water, steady your low-glycemic arms, legs, and torso, go find a park or a trail or somewhere good outside in nature. This really, really helps me on days 1-3.

Eighth, if you need to quit your fast because it's freaking you out, then quit your fast. It's a practice. A long journey. The three days you've already fasted (water only, mind you) is an amazing accomplishment -- kudos, man, we're rare birds pursuing an alternative song. It's too hard core and freaky for nearly all normal people.

So indeed congratulate yourself on being good to yourself for exploring this path, and maybe try fasting some other time, like next month or in December, whenever, when everyone else is cramming bloated faces with Christmas angel cookies, you're doing your own thing, man. Relax. You in the fasting state is actually more normal and similar to every other biological creature out there right now existing on planet earth: hungry.

When you think about it, it's the well-fed people who are actually the outliers --anthropologically and evolutionarily. We exist today only because our ancestors were goddamned hungry and hunting the dirt for anything edible to eat for, what, millions of years?
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#77 normalizing

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 10:12 PM

^ im not sure if that caused evolution in ancestors who were starving. i believe when we actually were getting as much food as we can is when our brains started to grow and we were evolutionizing. if anything, starvation will slow down evolution and procreation


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#78 sthira

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 10:39 PM

^ im not sure if that caused evolution in ancestors who were starving. i believe when we actually were getting as much food as we can is when our brains started to grow and we were evolutionizing. if anything, starvation will slow down evolution and procreation


Yeah, fire, agriculture, civilizations anew, all of it caused us to bloom into dominant beings. I guess my point is we have these bodies that are ancient, one human species of several other now extinct human species, and we sapiens did what we had to do to procreate, then we starved or we got eaten by cats or drank bad pond water. Meanwhile: here we are, with those very same bodies that have only slightly altered. So fasting, although deeply psychologically disturbing, is pretty natural for our sack of organs.

#79 normalizing

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 03:29 AM

i understand this whole ancient history and how there is potential in all of us to do things we wouldnt think possible, but i keep going back to how evolution works and its this constant consistent stream of genetical change in adaptation towards various conditions. for example regarding fasting state and well being, if centuries of ancestry were wealthy well fed, maybe kings and you come from noble gene pool, you likely never were passed on genes that deal with starvation and its likely you wont do as well on it as someone coming from ancestry of starving pissants. even not relation to centuries of changes, just decades could be possible as is my case i grew up never hungry always had food, somehow my organism is so used to it, its going to be very stressful to go through the process. and IF i have ancestry who didnt really starve in most of their lives, im going to have a problem here.



#80 recon

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:41 AM

So after this whole page of discussions (/arguments), how many hours before autophagy begins?

I read a rat study that reads that NAMPT is upregulated after a 48 hour fast. How long is that in humans?

I’d say that since rats metabolism is faster, humans would take a longer time to be equivalent to their 48 hours.
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#81 qofmiwok

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 08:19 PM

It would be awesome if there were something to measure to help you determine autophagy.  Respiration rate, HRV, heart rate, body temp, etc.  Maybe some day...


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#82 Chupo

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:20 PM

 


 

People have a hard difficult extending their fasts more than 3 days because they become weak and hypoglycemic. Yet the study claims the fasting individual was walking in spite not eating.

 

 

 

Three days is about the point where hunger goes away and energy levels increase on a fast.



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#83 normalizing

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:04 PM

after 24 hours of stomach discomfort and growling, hunger goes away for me at least not sure about 3 days i will probably actually start getting hungry



#84 xEva

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:30 AM

 

 


 

People have a hard difficult extending their fasts more than 3 days because they become weak and hypoglycemic. Yet the study claims the fasting individual was walking in spite not eating.

 

 

 

Three days is about the point where hunger goes away and energy levels increase on a fast.

 

 

That's coming from  a keto diet, right?



#85 normalizing

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:43 AM

xeva has been on this fasting thing for a really long time and yet i have to see a report from her it actually made her feel good in any way at all



#86 xEva

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:58 AM

xeva has been on this fasting thing for a really long time and yet i have to see a report from her it actually made her feel good in any way at all

 

oh I'm done reporting. 

 

you probably missed it, but when I showed up on this forum, which then was called ImmIInst, or Immortality Institute --geez that was a long time!--  I was just beginning to study fasting and was hoping that here I could learn more about the "metabolism of starvation" (as it was called in the old scientific literature). Unfortunately, this was not the right place.

 

People here were very hostile to the idea.  The vast majority were into supplements and discussions revolved around complicated schedules at which they took the stuff: some pills they took in the AM, some PM, some before meal, with meal, after meal, upon awakening, before gym, after gym, and some just before going to bed.. Can you imagine? Those poor bastards! The average age, at the time, was 20+ and most were neurotic young men, scared of life and even more scared of death. And that's why they thought it was of paramount  importance to have the absolutely right nutrition. Nutrition was everything. Not eating at all?! This was an abhorrent, unnatural and dangerous idea. 

 

They accused me of quackery and of not being scientific.This put me on the defensive and made me bitter. They asked how not eating for a while can possibly repair anything and demanded refs. The problem was, at the time, there were hardly any refs younger than 1970s. But, as the years passed, they started to come in, one by one.  And look, now fasting is an accepted practice. Even on this board! who could have thought back then...

 

so yeah, I did 1 ot 2 reports, one was 8d fast. 


Edited by xEva, 23 December 2017 - 03:07 AM.

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#87 normalizing

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 04:47 AM

8 day fast seems a bit excessive...

 

but i dont think any male in their 20s would think such thing is a good idea. at this age for males, its all about muscles and being pumped up and energetic, not about fasting and being isolated from the crowd. dining is a very social thing you know.  so i can understand this, even now  days people will not do this in their 20s and it makes perfect sense. and i strongly discourage anyone growing up hitting puberty to do it, that is not a good idea!

me personally, i dont really care and im getting older now but i dont really seek longevity, im just experimental and im curious of all things out there that might create a change and different perspective of things. soo, im just a curious cat interested in reports regarding this or anything else going on here on the forum :)


Edited by hazy, 23 December 2017 - 04:49 AM.


#88 Chupo

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:05 PM

 

 

 


 

People have a hard difficult extending their fasts more than 3 days because they become weak and hypoglycemic. Yet the study claims the fasting individual was walking in spite not eating.

 

 

 

Three days is about the point where hunger goes away and energy levels increase on a fast.

 

 

That's coming from  a keto diet, right?

 

 

Yes.
 


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#89 xEva

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:44 AM

Thanks Chupo for your reply :)  I don't know who  deemed your answer "pointless" -- this is very relevant info in a fasting thread that talks about timing. Coming from keto, you are ahead of the game by at least 2 days -- compared to someone getting in from a carb-based diet.

 

Carb people listen here: you have to deplete your liver glycogen to get into ketosis and that's when the real fast begins.  And it takes 2 days for this, which is a very long time when you don't eat. And then you have to adapt to ketosis  itself, which can take a whole week for a complete newbie. These transitions and adaptations is what makes fasting difficult.

 

But coming from keto, Chupo needs only to adapt to not eating itself -- which takes only 3 days for him!  A comparable minimum  is 5 days for an experienced faster coming from the carb world. Hardly anyone here lasts that long. That's why people largely don't know how well one can feel on a fast. 


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#90 xEva

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:34 AM

PS 

à propos · here is a typical first-time faster on reddit, wondering why he feels high like a kite on his 9th day of fasting lol : https://www.reddit.c...ong_stimulants/

 

Please note: 9-10 days is the typical time it takes to adapt to the "ketosis of starvation" (as documented by Cahill & Owen back in the 1970s). This adaptation phase can be shortened to ~5 days+ by a pro (who would also jumpstart it dry) and that's the absolute minimum, coming from carbs.    

 

After the full adaptation  is when one can experience this unforgettable euphoria and burst of energy (that's how people get hooked btw) 

 

 

 

And it is contrasted by a guy, who fasts weekly 4-5 days (several weeks in a row, to lose weight). And he complains that fasting does not cure depression: "Of course, it's bullshit that it cures that," he writes.  That's because he does not fast long enough. 

https://www.reddit.c...erBreadAndBaccy


Edited by xEva, 20 February 2018 - 01:45 AM.

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