72 replies to this topic

[Benko]

what came first: did my low T cause or contribute to my depression, or did my depression cause or contribute to my low T?

 

I'll bet the later i.e. stress/depression is primary problem.  That has been my sense from the beginning of this thread.  Deal with that first and thoroughly before even worrying about your test.

 

Moderate cardio/lifting can help some to relieve stress, as can the right kinds of meditation (message me) and spending more time in nature, but you may need more to deal with depression (not my area of expertise).

 

And to clarify, markedly increasing test is not going to turn you into an alpha male.   

[aconita]

Are you afraid of cold weather, cold hands/feet?

 

Sparse outer eyebrows, thin/fragile/balding hairs?

 

Check your basal temperature.

 

 

[Rocket]

Has anyone mentioned clomid? In other words, bodybuilders go onto a post cycle therapy to restart their bodies natural production of test after they finish an anabolic steroid cycle.

clomid + nova

If your balls are not in testicular failure, it can be easy to get back into the 600 range with clomid and nolva.

Both are extremely easy to find as research substances.

I used clomid and nolva to restart my T after cycles. It works. I have the blood tests to back it up.

Edited by Rocket, 15 July 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[Baten]

I used clomid and nolva to restart my T after cycles. It works. I have the blood tests to back it up.

 

The thing with clomid is, while it does boost your levels on paper, you don't feel particularly better. In fact, many feel worse because of the side effects. Libido tends to be fucked, emotions are WAY up.

 

Once you're done with the treatment, I'm still not sure if you're "better" off than before, since your estrogen is likely up, too, as well as your bound hormone/shbg. I'm sure it can be useful in the case of hypogonadism (or shutdown in the case of steroid usage), but in other cases I suspect it mostly a waste of time and money.

Edited by Baten, 15 July 2017 - 09:06 AM.

[Rocket]

I and others i know are great on clomid. Its a fantastic chemical! Just take an AI with it and don't take it forever. That's why bodybuilders use it for a matter of weeks.... to restart T production. If after 6 weeks or so of clomid, T falls again, then unfortunately there isn't anything you can do naturally. Not that clomid is natural. . .

There is one other thing you can do, but I hesitated to talk about it because of the danger of OD.Triptorelin. Used at the right dose, it works! But again, if your T levels fall again, then its just your body...

I have used Trip once. It worked. Then I did another roid cycle and used clomid.

Trip can work if you find a good supplier and if your body is suffering low T for the right reasons.

Why do you want higher T? 300s is normal low and if you're still loving sex and women, why mess with it??? If you have ED issues, just address that.

Testosterone makes want to have sex 3 times a day when I am on a cycle. But honestly once a day is good enough and normal. You haven't lived until you shoot a gram of testosterone in a week! A store mannequin will make you want to have sex!

Good luck

Note: I have blood tests for everything I use.

Edited by Rocket, 16 July 2017 - 01:47 AM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

You people can absolutely not read! Clomid does not bring you to 600ng/dl. Clomid increases your current levels by about 100ng/dl, or brings you back to your baseline. If your baseline is 400ng/dl then that's where you'll land.

Combining an aromatase inhibitor with clomid is only useful for increasing recovery time. It doesn't make a difference because it's about blocking the estrogen receptor activation in the hypothalamus to prevent the negative feedback loop, and clomid does this (it's both an ER antagonist and agonist).

Clomid is also a dangerous drug that can give you blood clots in your lungs, so you need to be careful with using it.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

simple, protein-bound hormone is not biologically active. only the protein-free fraction is.

This is absolutely false. Sex-hormone binding globulin has a function other than preventing hormone receptor binding. Bound testosterone affects HCT levels so you need some shbg.

Shbg also binds estrogen, dht and other sex hormones.

 

[jack black]

 

simple, protein-bound hormone is not biologically active. only the protein-free fraction is.

This is absolutely false. Sex-hormone binding globulin has a function other than preventing hormone receptor binding. Bound testosterone affects HCT levels so you need some shbg.

Shbg also binds estrogen, dht and other sex hormones.

 

 

if you don't like the wiki reference i linked, go ahead and rewrite it. lets see how long your edit will stay.
 

[jack black]

Has anyone mentioned clomid?

 

post #10

[Eryximachus]

It depends, if you are looking to improve testosterone to such a degree it will make a difference in your body composition there is no way but exogenous steroids or SARMs.

 

 

 

SARMs are garbage.   Perhaps you meant SERMs.

 

There is ample evidence that clomiphene increases testosterone levels, even at low doses where side effects are are (i.e. 12.5mg per day).   Clomiphene is cheap, has 60 years of research behind it, and even more modern research thanks to the development of Androxal.  

[PeaceAndProsperity]

SARMs are garbage.   Perhaps you meant SERMs.

 

There is ample evidence that clomiphene increases testosterone levels, even at low doses where side effects are are (i.e. 12.5mg per day).   Clomiphene is cheap, has 60 years of research behind it, and even more modern research thanks to the development of Androxal. 

Clomid and clomiphene are the same thing. I don't know why you mention it again when it's already been mentioned that the amount that it raises testosterone is minor. Clomid also raises shbg and has nasty side-effects even in low dosages. Taking clomid day after day is not going to do anything for you except make you feel even more castrated.

 

[smithx]

of interest:

 

Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate, but with a modest effect on sexual function. We wondered if longer treatment would produce improved results. A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone (P<0.001) and free testosterone (P<0.001) occurred in all patients. Multivariable analysis showed that responses decreased significantly with aging (P<0.05). Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements.

http://www.nature.co...l/3900981a.html

 

 

[Eryximachus]

 

SARMs are garbage.   Perhaps you meant SERMs.

 

There is ample evidence that clomiphene increases testosterone levels, even at low doses where side effects are are (i.e. 12.5mg per day).   Clomiphene is cheap, has 60 years of research behind it, and even more modern research thanks to the development of Androxal. 

Clomid and clomiphene are the same thing. I don't know why you mention it again when it's already been mentioned that the amount that it raises testosterone is minor. Clomid also raises shbg and has nasty side-effects even in low dosages. Taking clomid day after day is not going to do anything for you except make you feel even more castrated.

 

 

I mention it because, obviously, the post I cited told someone to use SARMs.  There is no research behind them, and the sources for them are BS grey market websites. 

 

You are entirely wrong about clomiphene, and you are being ridiculous pedantic pointing out the brand name for a drug whose patent expired in the 1970s.  

 

It's 2017.  The internet has ample research available to you.  Simply my mentioning Androxal should have been a clue to use google.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...clomiphene male

 

So, we have tons of articles about how clomiphene is used to treat male infertility and low testosterone, and you've got - what?  Nothing.  Castration? hahaha.   

 

PS: I take 12.5mg of clomid every day. My athletic recovery is faster, and I love blowing huge loads in my women.  

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Yes, you microbrain teenager. There are many studies on the use of clomiphene to RESTORE fertility, but not to be used to increase testosterone chronically and treat the emotional effects of low testosterone, or performance enhancement.

Clomiphene is not a performance enhancer in any way. Actually it kills libido (you'd know if you had tried it) and does not add strength whatsoever. And the boost to testosterone levels it gives you first of all fades over time and secondly can be gotten with other supplements like zinc. Lastly, clomiphene makes people feel like they have a testosterone deficiency probably because it increases shbg or whatever it is.

 

If you don't have testosterone levels LOWER than what your levels usually are, you have no use for it. It's only useful in restoring fertility, especially after using various hormones.

[aconita]

I mention it because, obviously, the post I cited told someone to use SARMs.  There is no research behind them, and the sources for them are BS grey market websites.

 

Educate yourself better before making a fool of yourself.

 

https://en.wikipedia...eptor_modulator

 

And by the way I never suggested to use SARMs or steroids, I just pointed out that those are the only realistic options "if you are looking to improve testosterone to such a degree it will make a difference in your body composition".

 

Clomiphene isn't able to do that therefore not comparable to SARMs or steroids, side effects are of concern and is a prescription only drug, now, where are you getting it from?

 

Not from a pharmacy without a prescription for sure but from the same kind of "BS grey market websites" or gym drugs smugglers you seem to dislike so much.

 

I take 12.5mg of clomid every day

 

Therefore isn't a cure but a "replacement" and as such it makes no sense at all, you'll be much better off with plain old testosterone, more researched (since you seem to care so much about), way more effective and less side effects.

[jack black]

Educate yourself better before making a fool of yourself.
.

Not gonna to happen. Lost case here, LOL.

[Brundel]

If you want to increase endogenous testosterone levels you have a few viable choices.

 

1. Testosterone. IM injection, Sublingual, transdermal, they even make an oral but its efficacy is questionable IMO.

2. Aromatase inhibitors. There are many pharm grade AIs available and some very solid OTC options. AIs bind to aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. So firstly they prevent your available testosterone from being converted to estrogen but also as the brain senses estrogen levels dropping into low ranges it will send the signal (LH) leutinizing hormone to the balls so more test can be made as a substrate to be converted into estrogen but of course we are preventing this so test levels contnue to rise as estro continues to drop.

3. SERMS. Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators. These also come as a pharmaceutical and as Natural OTC options. SERMS bind directly to estrogen receptors and block estrogen at the receptor. This does 2 things where we are concerned. First it prevents estrogens action at the receptor regardless of circulating estro levels and second it tricks the brain into thinking estro levels are plummeting. This in turn causes the LH signal to be sent and testosterone levels to rise.

Generally speaking an AI is preferred if only using 1 compound because with SERMS they do not lower estrogen levels. In fact, if anything estrogen levels will rise with test levels and upon cessation of administration of the SERM test levels will rapidly drop.

Instead concurrent administration of both a SERM and an AI will give the subject greater long term success.

4. Plant extracts and certain vitamins and minerals can work to increase test levels. Eurycoma longifolia, Boron citrate, Even Zinc and Vit D can help boost test levels.

 

Ultimately the strongest option is self administered testosterone but a blend of AI, SERM and vitamin/minerals will certainly work well to increase levels.

[jack black]

If you want to increase endogenous testosterone levels you have a few viable choices.

1. Testosterone. IM injection, Sublingual, transdermal, they even make an oral but its efficacy is questionable IMO.

There is a problem with you point #1.
Injecting exogenous T will shrink your balls and decrease or stop endogenous T, duh.
Please educate yourself, too.

[Brundel]

 

If you want to increase endogenous testosterone levels you have a few viable choices.

1. Testosterone. IM injection, Sublingual, transdermal, they even make an oral but its efficacy is questionable IMO.

There is a problem with you point #1.
Injecting exogenous T will shrink your balls and decrease or stop endogenous T, duh.
Please educate yourself, too.

 

 

I assure you I need no education on the subject so please, dont make assumptions. If the goal is the have stable high testosterone levels exogenous testosterone is the most effective way to get it done.

Yes your testes will shrink.

And yes endogenous testosterone will drop but its being more than replaced by the injection so its a moot point. Its like you started with 2 apples and someone offers you 10 apples but you have to give up the 2 you have. Is it smarter to keep the 2 or trade them for 10? Ive personally been on IM testosterone injections for more than a decade. My test levels are constantly in an optimal range and will continue to be so as long as Im alive. The other options that work well include taking daily drugs or supplements and even the best combination of these cannot even come close to the efficacy of IM testosterone.
 

Edited by Brundel, 24 July 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[jack black]

Fine that it works for you, but please don't claim it increases your endogenous T like you did before.

[Brundel]

Fine that it works for you, but please don't claim it increases your endogenous T like you did before.

 

Oh!

Your correct. It was early and I misstyped. That certainly IS incorrect.

Exogenous test will under no circumstances raise endogenous test.

I cannot edit it now.

Endogenous should not have been in the first sentence. Was thinking faster than I was typing.

Otherwise, I stand by my statements.

Edited by Brundel, 25 July 2017 - 12:26 AM.

[Brundel]

I own a company that manufactures and sells natural AIs and SERMS as well as natural test boosters. I wont name the company as I dont want it to look as though Im trying to market my brand here. Probably against the rules.

We can for sure talk about the different types of plant extracts and naturally occurring HPTA manipulating compounds though if this is something that interests those reading this thread.

Its surprising how many "test boosting" supplements are available that wont raise testosterone levels. Many will likely lower it and some are major antiandrogens. Its out of control.

[aconita]

Nice....but  in despite of that you are on testosterone.

 

How comes if, as you claim, there are so many effective alternatives to raise it?

 

Just out of curiosity, of course. 

[Brundel]

Nice....but  in despite of that you are on testosterone.

 

How comes if, as you claim, there are so many effective alternatives to raise it?

 

Just out of curiosity, of course. 

 

Great question!

First intramuscular testosterone injections are massively more effective than any other option.

You can, after a bit of testing, know within a certain range how much say 100mg of IM test will raise your total testosterone level. This means I can reliably keep my test level at 1100ng/dl or I can raise it to 3300. The point is I have control.

With all other options its a crapshoot. Yes they raise test levels but sometimes a little, sometimes alot and you would have a hard time raising levels above normal if this is what you wanted to do.

Also its a much more direct route. Why take a bunch of pills that raise your testosterone levels when you can just take the testosterone? Makes no sense.

Unless of course you dont like needles or dont have a medical need for it in which case a prescription for testosterone would be impossible to get and or your not into buying blackmarket testosterone off some guy at the gym. All good reasons to want to seek other options.

 

Keep in mind its not my opinion that there are many things that raise testosterone levels. Its a fact.

The efficacy of each specific option may be argued but SERMS, AIs and some plants will raise test levels for the vast majority of healthy individuals.

I have seen dozens of labs showing that our SERMS and AIs raise test levels and Ive read more studies than I can count that show these options work.

Its really up to you.

The most effective way to raise testosterone levels is to self administer testosterone. But if for some reason you cant or wont other options will work although with less potential and less reliability.

[aconita]

I would really like to see a study on HUMANS with testosterone levels ranging around mid point (let say 500-600) showing significant increase by the use of supplements.

 

As far as I know there is none.

 

 

[Brundel]

I would really like to see a study on HUMANS with testosterone levels ranging around mid point (let say 500-600) showing significant increase by the use of supplements.

 

As far as I know there is none.

 

Another reason IM testosterone is the way to go. Pretty much all other options even Pharmaceutical ones will not raise testosterone above normal range or around the top end. Nearly all studies are done on people with deficiencies and while its great raising test from 300 to 700 most people are more interested in supraphysiological levels as its this that gives the most noticeable results.

One thing to consider though is percentage. There is a "normal range" for testosterone. This is, in most places, 300-1100ng/dl. What I mean by percentage is percentage of change relative to overall benefit of treatment.

For example subject 1. has a total testosterone level of 300ng/dl. Subject 1. takes a supplement and his levels climb to 900. or 300% of HIS normal.

Subject 2 has a total testosterone level of 800. He supplements and his levels reach 900.

Which do you think will see the biggest benefit? I can tell you that without question someone with a 300% increase in testosterone level will see changes in physique, strength, mood, libido etc regardless of if his levels reached supraphysiological levels.

In addition lots of guys have low test levels and high estrogen levels. Getting this in check is a major benefit healthwise, physique wise, moodwise etc. So some of the supplements used, AIs for example play a larger role.

[RonBurgandy]

So much trash advice on this thread. Some posters sound like they're talking out of their ass after reading on AnabolicMinds.com

 

OP, do some research on your own, there is plenty of literature out there on both getting natty levels up AND replacement therapy if you choose that route.

 

A tale of caution from personal experience...

 

I got my levels tested @ 24 and found them to be at ~400, this started a frenzy of trying to get them up.

 

• Nolvadex after 2 weeks put me @ 577 ng/dl with liver enzymes in the 100's, back to 400 2 weeks later and enzymes normal
• Tongkat Ali pushed me to about 475 ng/dl, libido skyrocketed, back down to ~400ish 2 weeks later
• Clomid pushed me to 997 ng/dl, but also shot up shbg to 60, but it's cool - cause I was back to normal 2 weeks later, yes 400.

See where I'm going here...

 

So then I jumped on TRT (Test + HCG), was on for 2 years. 

 

I've done countless hours of fine tuning and locking in everything from TT/FT to Preg, Prog, DHEA, DHT, E2. Found out I didn't need an AI after my doc put me on 1mg Arimidex weekly and it crushed my E2 to from 30 -> 13 literally overnight, so I switched to MWF dosing @ 30mg test, 150iu HCG which put me at a solid 900TT, 25-30FT, 18-22E2. Unfortunately it became a hastle when I had to start bloodletting 350-450cc monthly to keep RBC in check, I'm banned from donating and doc wouldn't provide script so I got a fair amount of practice sticking myself with all different gauges in all different places. 

 

ON TRT

 

I ate more, LOTS MORE (crave fats), still weigh the same as I have for years (160lb)

My strength stagnated or in some cases decreased

I became more complacent at work, somewhat arrogant

Found myself buying more, taking more risks, gambling

Wanted to have sex all the time, nothing wrong there

Developed a weird Anime fetish, somewhat odd

Sleep is awesome (GABA connection?)

 

OFF TRT

 

Eat less, (crave carbs), still weigh 160

Motivation is up at work, much more intellectual (I'm an engineer so it makes a difference)

Feel stronger in the gym, but tend to feel soreness more

Less anime, more gaming and working on tech life

Less sex, but sex feels better

Sleep sucks

 

I could go on and on .... but point I'm getting at here is, ONE number does NOT apply to ALL individuals. Everyone has a different genetic makeup with receptor density, sensitiviy, horomone and neurochemical balance, etc. 

 

Don't listen to fools who've never walked the path, I can assure you Longecity is the last place I would look for sound horomonal advice.

 

Check out www.anabolicmen.com (for natty suggestions) and https://www.t-nation...o-t-replacement (good place to start)

 

 

 

 

[aconita]

ONE number does NOT apply to ALL individuals. Everyone has a different genetic makeup with receptor density, sensitiviy, horomone and neurochemical balance, etc.

 

I agree with that but one thing is to be at 400 which is lowish but "in range", another is to be well below 300 which is scratching the lower range.

 

In my view that statement applies quite rightfully to whom is kind of lowish but after all not too far from mid values but not to whom can be defined as pathological or almost so.

 

There is a range appositely to accommodate "different genetic makeup with receptor density, sensitivity, hormone and neurochemical balance, etc...", outside that range or getting too close to the limits indicates something isn't working as it should, aren't tests performed for this very reason?

 

I can assure you Longecity is the last place I would look for sound horomonal advice

 

Longecity members aren't selected by their degree of knowledge or compliance to someone point of view, as all forums or the whole internet are for that matter, is up to the judging capacity of the reader to evaluate good advise from bullshit as for everything in life (even when it comes from "selected" people like professionals, PHD, etc..).

 

I think Longecity doesn't prevent sick advise but offers more chances to come by interesting suggestions since tends to attract curious people interested in research (which increases chances to be knowledgeable or at least not totally ignorant).

 

Advises or suggestions aren't diagnosis or prescriptions but pointing at a direction that might be intriguing and deserving some deeper research.

 

In most cases to ask for suggestions and just following them blindly isn't a smart behavior, regardless from whom the suggestion comes from, here as in life in general.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

The people I find on longecity are much more knowledgeable and intelligent compared to the people I find on steroid forums, regarding the subject of hormones.

 

Anyway, we've eliminated the usage of fertility medications, we've eliminated most herbs (again 1 or 2 work but they're toxic). Is there something we don't know? Doesn't seem like it.

[DarkRiver]

What's interesting guys is that when I was on TRT + HCG, both my DHEA and pregnenolone levels crashed.

 

DHEA - Nov. 2016

1099 ng/dL (61 - 1636)

Pregnenolone - Nov. 2016

23 ng/dL (13 - 208)

 

***STARTED TRT + HCG***

 

DHEA - Feb. 2017

255 ng/dL (61 - 1636)

Pregnenolone - Feb. 2017

<5 ng/dL (13 - 208)

 

***STOPPED TRT + HCG***

 

DHEA - May. 2017

414 ng/dL (61 - 1636)

Pregnenolone - May 2017

21 ng/dL (13 - 208)

 

Looks like my DHEA is still trying to recover and get back to 1000+ where it was originally.