579 replies to this topic

[Eva Victoria]

Couple of possibly dumb questions:

Are you recommending that people use sunscreen every day

Yes. But it also depends where you live. Esp. in the winter. When the UV Index is above 2.5 one should apply sunscreen.

even if they don't spend much time outside? Do they still need protection from sunlight coming through the windows?

Yes. UVA rays penetrate through window glass.

What are your thoughts on keeping a beard? It makes it impossible to apply skin care products to the skin underneath, but does it make up for that by providing protection?

It actually does not provide adequate protection. A hat is always recommended.

I'm guessing the answer is yes since our scalps seem to do ok, or is the skin on the face qualitatively different?

[Eva Victoria]

Eva how do I correctly use Retin-a and Kojic acid in conjunction?

I would recommend you using Retin-A in the evening and the product containing Kojic Acid in the morning. Both should be applied on clean skin and followed with a moisturizer if it is necessary. Sunscreen during the day is a must.

Thank you. I think I am going to try using kojic acid instead of HQ as you suggested in the PM a couple of weeks ago. I might still use HQ a couple times a week in the beginning before totally excluding it from my regimen in favor of kojic acid and sepiwhite (opinion on sepiwhite?). I am also doing regular lactic peels (once every week and a half) which is yielding nice results.

Sepiwhite does inhibit melanogenesis but does not fade existing pigmentation in the skin.
HQ and Kojic Acid along with Azelaic Acid and Vitamin C do. Vitamin C, Kojic Acid and Azelaic Acid also have a preventative action against melanogenesis.

[DairyProducts]

Eva, in past posts you have recommended for a young person (20's) with healthy skin to use Clinique: Continuous rescue antioxidant moisturizer and Bioderma:photoderm MAX fluide SP50+. Both of those are a little pricey for me now. I will one day be sure to try them out, but can you recommend something cheaper that would be almost as effective or at least a poor man's substitute? Same for a good vitamin-C serum (you said la Roche posay.)

I was also wondering about using retin-a with a moisturizer. In some posts of yours I saw that you said to use retin-A alone and others I saw you said to use it with a moisturizer. Which is it?

Finally, you said to use sunglasses and clothes to protect from the sun. Are all sunglasses and clothes created equal, or do some materials protect better than others? Thanks!

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, in past posts you have recommended for a young person (20's) with healthy skin to use Clinique: Continuous rescue antioxidant moisturizer and Bioderma:photoderm MAX fluide SP50+. Both of those are a little pricey for me now. I will one day be sure to try them out, but can you recommend something cheaper that would be almost as effective or at least a poor man's substitute? Same for a good vitamin-C serum (you said la Roche posay.)

As I can see you live in the US. Try to find a sun creme containing Cetyl Dimethicone or Stearyl Dimethicone and a high level ZnO. That will have a good UVA protection along with good film forming properties.
Estee Lauder group has some cheaper lines. Their moisturizers can be good as well. Good Skin line is a good example of that.

I was also wondering about using retin-a with a moisturizer. In some posts of yours I saw that you said to use retin-A alone and others I saw you said to use it with a moisturizer. Which is it?

Retin-A should be used alone. However, it is very drying for most. Then you can apply a moisturizer approx. after 20 min.

Finally, you said to use sunglasses and clothes to protect from the sun. Are all sunglasses and clothes created equal, or do some materials protect better than others? Thanks!

As far as I know sunglasses are not regulated in the US. (I might be wrong though). In the EU there is a regulation. It is printed EU on the glasses. Meaning it has UVA protection as well. Glasses should be as dark as possible. Then they'll protect better. The side should be sicker so there is mor protection against rays on the side. Glasses should fit at your eyebrows/ forehead otherwise they can let light penetrate your eyes.

Edited by Eva Victoria, 02 February 2010 - 02:45 PM.

[Inaara]

As far as I know sunglasses are not regulated in the US. (I might be wrong though). In the EU there is a regulation. It is printed EU on the glasses. Meaning it has UVA protection as well. Glasses should be as dark as possible. Then they'll protect better. The side should be sicker so there is mor protection against rays on the side. Glasses should fit at your eyebrows/ forehead otherwise they can let light penetrate your eyes.
[/quote]

Eva, could you please name a few brands (or just one - the best ) for quality sunglasses? I'm always looking for the best one and I found that my dark brown Gucci (I bought it about 5-6 years ago) is not good enough as far as sun protection concerned.
I am a sun protection fanatic, avoid the sun at all costs and wear Bioderma Photoderm Spot (SPF 50+ PPD 38)sunscreen every single day.As a result I have very good skin at 40 and I plan to keep it like it is now for as long as possible!

Thank you so much in advance!

[Eva Victoria]

As far as I know sunglasses are not regulated in the US. (I might be wrong though). In the EU there is a regulation. It is printed EU on the glasses. Meaning it has UVA protection as well. Glasses should be as dark as possible. Then they'll protect better. The side should be sicker so there is mor protection against rays on the side. Glasses should fit at your eyebrows/ forehead otherwise they can let light penetrate your eyes.


Eva, could you please name a few brands (or just one - the best ) for quality sunglasses? I'm always looking for the best one and I found that my dark brown Gucci (I bought it about 5-6 years ago) is not good enough as far as sun protection concerned.
I am a sun protection fanatic, avoid the sun at all costs and wear Bioderma Photoderm Spot (SPF 50+ PPD 38)sunscreen every single day.As a result I have very good skin at 40 and I plan to keep it like it is now for as long as possible!

Thank you so much in advance!

I don't know much about sunglasses. I have several sunglasses from Gucci and Oakley. The ones that I use all have huge black glass and good protection at the side. Oakley tends to have better glasses but the arms are thinner.

[TheFountain]

As far as I know sunglasses are not regulated in the US. (I might be wrong though). In the EU there is a regulation. It is printed EU on the glasses. Meaning it has UVA protection as well. Glasses should be as dark as possible. Then they'll protect better. The side should be sicker so there is mor protection against rays on the side. Glasses should fit at your eyebrows/ forehead otherwise they can let light penetrate your eyes.


Eva, could you please name a few brands (or just one - the best ) for quality sunglasses? I'm always looking for the best one and I found that my dark brown Gucci (I bought it about 5-6 years ago) is not good enough as far as sun protection concerned.
I am a sun protection fanatic, avoid the sun at all costs and wear Bioderma Photoderm Spot (SPF 50+ PPD 38)sunscreen every single day.As a result I have very good skin at 40 and I plan to keep it like it is now for as long as possible!

Thank you so much in advance!

I don't know much about sunglasses. I have several sunglasses from Gucci and Oakley. The ones that I use all have huge black glass and good protection at the side. Oakley tends to have better glasses but the arms are thinner.

I use to work for a sunglass hut and Oakley sunglasses sold abundantly. I found that the 'polarized' ones sold the best because they reduced glare. I personally could not tolerate polarization technology because it caused my eyes to strain after a short while, but it is said that when wearing extremely dark glasses that polarization is very helpful for distinguishing objects in the world around you. Especially when on a sailboat with the water reflecting sunlight back at much greater magnitudes than other environments. But again I do not know for certain as I never went sailing.

[amonavis]

Hi Eva I have a question about Zinc Oxide sunscreens. I live in Canada and in the winter in Toronto the UV index is around 2 mostly. So I thought that maybe I dont need my SPF 50, but that it would make more sense to use a cosmetically elegant Zinc Oxide based sunscreen, since it also helps with redness and windburn, and inflammation that one gets from harsh weather. I was interested in Topix Glycolix which has 17% Z cote. Here is some info about it:

Active Ingredients:
Zinc Oxide 17.0%.

Inactive Ingredients:
Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Cyclomethicone, Laurylmethicone Copolyol, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Polyacrylamide, Ceresin, Dimethicone, Green Tea Extract, Phospholipids, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Retinyl Palmitate, Coenzyme Q-10, Ascorbyl Glucosamine, Superoxide Dismutase, Laureth-7, Sodium Chloride, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Diazolidinyl Urea.

An innovative form of microfine zinc oxide—with a particle size of less than 0.2 microns, Z-COTE® is invisible when applied to the skin. But don't let its transparent nature fool you. Even though it's light on the skin, it's a heavyweight when it comes to sun protection. It offers true broad-spectrum UVA and UVB protection."

Will these "microfine particles" of zinc also protect against long UVA rays- UVA1? Or do they face similar limitations as Nano particles of Zinc (poor UVA1 protection?). I want to ensure that I am well protected against UVA rays. Thanks

Edited by amonavis, 16 February 2010 - 02:45 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Eva I have a question about Zinc Oxide sunscreens. I live in Canada and in the winter in Toronto the UV index is around 2 mostly. So I thought that maybe I dont need my SPF 50, but that it would make more sense to use a cosmetically elegant Zinc Oxide based sunscreen, since it also helps with redness and windburn, and inflammation that one gets from harsh weather. I was interested in Topix Glycolix which has 17% Z cote. Here is some info about it:

Active Ingredients:
Zinc Oxide 17.0%.

Inactive Ingredients:
Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Cyclomethicone, Laurylmethicone Copolyol, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Polyacrylamide, Ceresin, Dimethicone, Green Tea Extract, Phospholipids, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Retinyl Palmitate, Coenzyme Q-10, Ascorbyl Glucosamine, Superoxide Dismutase, Laureth-7, Sodium Chloride, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Diazolidinyl Urea.

An innovative form of microfine zinc oxide—with a particle size of less than 0.2 microns, Z-COTE® is invisible when applied to the skin. But don't let its transparent nature fool you. Even though it's light on the skin, it's a heavyweight when it comes to sun protection. It offers true broad-spectrum UVA and UVB protection."

Will these "microfine particles" of zinc also protect against long UVA rays- UVA1? Or do they face similar limitations as Nano particles of Zinc (poor UVA1 protection?). I want to ensure that I am well protected against UVA rays. Thanks

Z-Cote comes in 3 variants. In this sunscreen the first Z-Cote version is used. It has protection up to 375nm. At 380 it almost does not offer any protection.
However, what all Z-Cote variants offer is the excellent feel on the skin. So it is still better to use a sunscreen with Z-Cote thn a sunscreen that might offer marginally better UVA protection but you don't use it because it does not feel good or look good on the skin.
Otherwise this sunscreen looks very impressive if I may say so myself.
I like the fact that it has more than 8% ZnO (this is the max. recommended amount from the producer of Z-Cote). It has several very good complementary anti-oxidants. It is water based but has a good film forming agent which contributes to a better UVR protection.
I also like the fact that it is fragrance free.
This product might not offer very high UVB protection (mostlikely about SPF 15-20) but it has a stable UVA protection of about PPD 15-18, which is much higher than most high SPF sunscreens have!
You can easily use this as an everyday sunscreen all year around. Maybe an additional sunscreen is required (under it) if you spend a longer period of time outside in the summer.

[Mia K.]

<FONT face="Arial">

Hi Eva I have a question about Zinc Oxide sunscreens. I live in Canada and in the winter in Toronto the UV index is around 2 mostly. So I thought that maybe I dont need my SPF 50, but that it would make more sense to use a cosmetically elegant Zinc Oxide based sunscreen, since it also helps with redness and windburn, and inflammation that one gets from harsh weather. I was interested in Topix Glycolix which has 17% Z cote. Here is some info about it:

Active Ingredients:
Zinc Oxide 17.0%.

Inactive Ingredients:
Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Cyclomethicone, Laurylmethicone Copolyol, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Polyacrylamide, Ceresin, Dimethicone, Green Tea Extract, Phospholipids, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Retinyl Palmitate, Coenzyme Q-10, Ascorbyl Glucosamine, Superoxide Dismutase, Laureth-7, Sodium Chloride, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Diazolidinyl Urea.

An innovative form of microfine zinc oxide—with a particle size of less than 0.2 microns, Z-COTE® is invisible when applied to the skin. But don't let its transparent nature fool you. Even though it's light on the skin, it's a heavyweight when it comes to sun protection. It offers true broad-spectrum UVA and UVB protection."
<DIV align="left">Will these "microfine particles" of zinc also protect against long UVA rays- UVA1? Or do they face similar limitations as Nano particles of Zinc (poor UVA1 protection?). I want to ensure that I am well protected against UVA rays. Thanks

Hi amonavis.  This is the sunscreen I use most days.  I'm glad/reassured that Eva approves!  


However, I am perplexed by something.  The Ingredients list that you've provided is the list that's on the box of mine (and that I can find all over the internet), while the list on the bottle itself is quite different.  Do the lists on your box & bottle agree?

Thanks, Mia

[happy lemon]

Hi Eva,

I would like to know if the average particle size of the zinc oxide in the sunblock is of 1 micron, do you think it is safe to use?

The link below says that microfine ZnO (0.2 micron) is "photoclastogenic, possibly photo-aneugenic, and a photo-DNA damaging agent in mammalian cells cultured in vitro."
http://ec.europa.eu/.../sccp_o_00m.pdf

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Eva,

I would like to know if the average particle size of the zinc oxide in the sunblock is of 1 micron, do you think it is safe to use?

The link below says that microfine ZnO (0.2 micron) is "photoclastogenic, possibly photo-aneugenic, and a photo-DNA damaging agent in mammalian cells cultured in vitro."
http://ec.europa.eu/.../sccp_o_00m.pdf

Hi Happy Lemon,

Indeed it is the case that in the EU ZnO in any form as a sunscreen agent is still waiting for approval. In Sweden it is totally prohibited in all products (including diaper cream for babies).

To know the particle size of any inorganic sunscreen in a finished product is very difficult unless you have lab. equipment to be able to measure it.
It is usually of smaller particle size than the original ZnO that is used in the finished product. Dispersion of ZnO and homogenization after emulsification is crucial to achieve good photo protection in an inorganic sunscreen (as well as in the case of organic filters) which will also make that the particle size of the inorganic filter is going to be smaller.
At the moment we don't know yet whether the EU will require producers to measure particle size of the inorganic filter before the finished product or its particle size after the product is finished (ready sunscreen).

I do not worry about the safety of ZnO even in the uncoated state. It has been proven in countless studies its anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory effect even in the case of Eczema.
Its safety profile and its broad-spectrum UV protection (esp. in the short and long UVA range) makes it an unparalled UV filter.

[Fredrik]

Zinc oxide is not prohibited in sweden, I know because I live there. We use it in diaper rash creams, lipbalms, cosmetics and wound healing ointments. It´s just not allowed to be used as a sunscreen filter, because eu has not approved it as a UV-filter yet. If and when they will, we will use it as a sunscreen-filter again as we did before eu-regulations.

[Eva Victoria]

Zinc oxide is not prohibited in sweden, I know because I live there. We use it in diaper rash creams, lipbalms, cosmetics and wound healing ointments. It´s just not allowed to be used as a sunscreen filter, because eu has not approved it as a UV-filter yet. If and when they will, we will use it as a sunscreen-filter again as we did before eu-regulations.

That is very good news indeed.
I have been approached by a Swedish company earlier this year who complained about the impossibility of selling anything that contained ZnO. they now market their products in Norway.

I have found this: (though it is in Swedish), they say the same as you do Fredrik.

http://www.lakemedel...-solskyddsamne/

http://gd.se/nyheter...nkoxid-for-barn

[wydell]

I currently use Soleo ( ranked in the top 10 safest sunscreens by EWG), but I have used other ZNO sunscreens. I can tell you that zinc oxide will give you a ghosty look. At a minimum, I find that you have to add a tint - I use grape seed powder. And it still gives somewhat of a ghosty look. So it does not look too ridiculous, I also dilute my sunscreen with some moisturizer, which of course likely dilutes its effectiveness, but it looks less pasty. If I know beforehand that I am spending more than 20 minutes outside, then I don't dilute.

There are some blurbs about various ZNO sunscreens on the web not being ghosty or pasty. I find that not to be true.

Zinc oxide is not prohibited in sweden, I know because I live there. We use it in diaper rash creams, lipbalms, cosmetics and wound healing ointments. It´s just not allowed to be used as a sunscreen filter, because eu has not approved it as a UV-filter yet. If and when they will, we will use it as a sunscreen-filter again as we did before eu-regulations.

That is very good news indeed.
I have been approached by a Swedish company earlier this year who complained about the impossibility of selling anything that contained ZnO. they now market their products in Norway.

I have found this: (though it is in Swedish), they say the same as you do Fredrik.

http://www.lakemedel...-solskyddsamne/

http://gd.se/nyheter...nkoxid-for-barn

Edited by wydell, 13 March 2010 - 03:10 PM.

[TheFountain]

Eva I am wondering why you have never recommended Garnier Ambre Solaire to anybody here? It is an excellent european sunscreen at a fraction of the cost of the other's.

[Eva Victoria]

Eva I am wondering why you have never recommended Garnier Ambre Solaire to anybody here? It is an excellent european sunscreen at a fraction of the cost of the other's.

Oh, but I have. Countless times. Just look at my previous posts.

[Eva Victoria]

I currently use Soleo ( ranked in the top 10 safest sunscreens by EWG), but I have used other ZNO sunscreens. I can tell you that zinc oxide will give you a ghosty look. At a minimum, I find that you have to add a tint - I use grape seed powder. And it still gives somewhat of a ghosty look. So it does not look too ridiculous, I also dilute my sunscreen with some moisturizer, which of course likely dilutes its effectiveness, but it looks less pasty. If I know beforehand that I am spending more than 20 minutes outside, then I don't dilute.

There are some blurbs about various ZNO sunscreens on the web not being ghosty or pasty. I find that not to be true.

Zinc oxide is not prohibited in sweden, I know because I live there. We use it in diaper rash creams, lipbalms, cosmetics and wound healing ointments. It´s just not allowed to be used as a sunscreen filter, because eu has not approved it as a UV-filter yet. If and when they will, we will use it as a sunscreen-filter again as we did before eu-regulations.

That is very good news indeed.
I have been approached by a Swedish company earlier this year who complained about the impossibility of selling anything that contained ZnO. they now market their products in Norway.

I have found this: (though it is in Swedish), they say the same as you do Fredrik.

http://www.lakemedel...-solskyddsamne/

http://gd.se/nyheter...nkoxid-for-barn

It is true, that when ZnO is dispersed in organic oils it will have a pasty ghostly effect on the skin.
However, there are other ways to dispers ZnO so the final product will be much more pleasing cosmetically.
1. In water. Croda makes ZnO dispersions in water.
2. Make ZnO dispersions in silicones, silicone elastomers alone or together with very light orgnic oils like IPM or Octyldodecanol.
Avoiding Stearic Acid, Glyceryl Stearate and using Polymers will also give a more pleasant cosmetic experience.

[happy lemon]

......I do not worry about the safety of ZnO even in the uncoated state......

Hi Eva,

I have just came across the web page of Osmosis & it says that the risk of uncoated zinc.

"...It appears that both titanium and zinc will oxidize in the skin and create inflammation above and beyond the sun exposure unless the particles are coated with silica (like Osmosis). Research suggests that there may be toxicity associated with micronized and specifically nano-sized titanium and zinc as their penetration into the blood is possible, but Osmosis believes that the silica coating makes the particles inert and therefore inactive/non-toxic in the serum (if any should reach that far). Micronized zinc reflects light significantly better and has a broader UV protection spectrum than any form of titanium. Lastly, Shelter is truly a moisturizer as well as having some of the most active antioxidants in the skin!"

The reason I asked is because I am still looking for a physical sunblock to replace my current Neturogena.

Two sunblocks I am interested in are with these ingredients; however, it seems to me that the zinc is not coated with silica; what is your comment? How true do you think the risk of uncoated (micronized) zinc as Osmosis claims?

1. Ionized Water, Micronized Zinc Oxide 18.6%, Extract of Neem, Brahmi, Shatavari, Licorice, Vitamin E, Lecithin, Rose Essential Oil, Xanthan Gum.

2. Camellia sinensis (green& white tea), non micronized zinc oxide, 24% , Simmondsia chinensis (jojoba oil), Prunus armeniaca (apricot kernel oil), Limnanthes alba (meadowfoam seed oil), Helianthus annuus (sunflower oil), emu oil, Rubus idaeus (red raspberry seed oil), Elaesis guineensis (red palm oil), potassium sorbate, vegetable glycerin, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), allantoin, Cosmocil CQ*, lecithin, Hippophae rhamnoides (sea buckthorn oil), Calodendrum Capense (yangu oil), Lonicera japonica (honeysuckle), Rosemary oleoresin, xantham gum, Daucus carota (carrot seed) essential oil, Cistus incanus (cistus) essential oil, Lavendula angustfolia (lavender) essential oil, Curcuma longa Rhizome (curcuma) essential oil, iron oxides

[Eva Victoria]

......I do not worry about the safety of ZnO even in the uncoated state......

Hi Eva,

I have just came across the web page of Osmosis & it says that the risk of uncoated zinc.

"...It appears that both titanium and zinc will oxidize in the skin and create inflammation above and beyond the sun exposure unless the particles are coated with silica (like Osmosis). Research suggests that there may be toxicity associated with micronized and specifically nano-sized titanium and zinc as their penetration into the blood is possible, but Osmosis believes that the silica coating makes the particles inert and therefore inactive/non-toxic in the serum (if any should reach that far). Micronized zinc reflects light significantly better and has a broader UV protection spectrum than any form of titanium. Lastly, Shelter is truly a moisturizer as well as having some of the most active antioxidants in the skin!"

The reason I asked is because I am still looking for a physical sunblock to replace my current Neturogena.

Two sunblocks I am interested in are with these ingredients; however, it seems to me that the zinc is not coated with silica; what is your comment? How true do you think the risk of uncoated (micronized) zinc as Osmosis claims?

1. Ionized Water, Micronized Zinc Oxide 18.6%, Extract of Neem, Brahmi, Shatavari, Licorice, Vitamin E, Lecithin, Rose Essential Oil, Xanthan Gum.

2. Camellia sinensis (green& white tea), non micronized zinc oxide, 24% , Simmondsia chinensis (jojoba oil), Prunus armeniaca (apricot kernel oil), Limnanthes alba (meadowfoam seed oil), Helianthus annuus (sunflower oil), emu oil, Rubus idaeus (red raspberry seed oil), Elaesis guineensis (red palm oil), potassium sorbate, vegetable glycerin, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), allantoin, Cosmocil CQ*, lecithin, Hippophae rhamnoides (sea buckthorn oil), Calodendrum Capense (yangu oil), Lonicera japonica (honeysuckle), Rosemary oleoresin, xantham gum, Daucus carota (carrot seed) essential oil, Cistus incanus (cistus) essential oil, Lavendula angustfolia (lavender) essential oil, Curcuma longa Rhizome (curcuma) essential oil, iron oxides

I don't know who these Osmosis People are but they definitely want to sell their own products.
Uncoated ZnO is an antioxidant in itself unlike uncoated TiO2.
It is of course better to coat ZnO to increase its dispersability and UVB protection.
there are several possibilities for coating. Silica is one method. And it is not even the best! Methicone or Polyhydroxystearic
acid are better. But there is one that is even better for increased UV protection: Triethoxycaprylylsilane or its crosspolymer.

There are other ways to make ZnO (uncoated or coated) even more effective: adding Polyhydroxystearic acid or Styrene/acrylic copolymer before emulsification.

It is true that micronized ZnO have a broader UV protection profile than that of TiO2.
I do not recommend nano-size ZnO nor TiO2. Their UVA protection is very weak as well.

These sunscreens you have mentioned they both contain essential oils. essential oils are potential sensitisers. Additional UV light will encrease their skin sensitising properties. It can result in hyperpigmentation, skin rush, allergy etc.

[Mia K.]

Eva I am wondering why you have never recommended Garnier Ambre Solaire to anybody here? It is an excellent european sunscreen at a fraction of the cost of the other's.

Greetings All,

Any sources for the Garnier for those of us in the US? My searches have turned up empty. I'm very fair (Irish-Gaelic) complected, living in Tropical SoFla. Yeesh, the UV Index is already 9, only to increase. Currently I use Glycolix Elite spf30, LRP spf30 AC and Avene's fluide spf 50+, alternating upon the day. I can always use an(additional) effective, elegant s/s -even if my vanity top sags with weight.

Thanks, Mia

Apologies if this is an inappropriate Q for this forum.

[Eva Victoria]

Eva I am wondering why you have never recommended Garnier Ambre Solaire to anybody here? It is an excellent european sunscreen at a fraction of the cost of the other's.

Greetings All,

Any sources for the Garnier for those of us in the US? My searches have turned up empty. I'm very fair (Irish-Gaelic) complected, living in Tropical SoFla. Yeesh, the UV Index is already 9, only to increase. Currently I use Glycolix Elite spf30, LRP spf30 AC and Avene's fluide spf 50+, alternating upon the day. I can always use an(additional) effective, elegant s/s -even if my vanity top sags with weight.

Thanks, Mia

Apologies if this is an inappropriate Q for this forum.

Hi Mia,

All the sunscreens produced by L'Oreal that contain Mexoryl SX, Mexoryl XL, TinosorbS are not allowed in the US. The only few exceptions are the very few LRP and Lancôme susncreens that contain Mexoryl SX that are allowed to be sold in the US.

You will need to order from the EU or buy it in Canada or Mexico.

[mustardseed41]

When you mention micronized zinc oxide having superior uv protection, we are talking about one at least 20% right?
When paired with Titanium Dioxide, how does this compare to the mexoryls and tinosorbs?
Much conflicting info. out their. The mexoryl, tinosorb camp says they provide much more uv protection and that zinc oxide, with it's low PPD rating, gives much less protection. I'm currently using Garnier Ambre Solaire uv sensitive spf50+ and believe I am well protected but would rather use a zinc oxide based sunscreen that did not cost a fortune, leave me whitish, and offered as good or better protection.

[happy lemon]

Hope that these charts are helpful.

[Eva Victoria]

This is the answer to you Mustarseed as well.
Happy Lemon, I'd like to use your charts here. I know the first one is usually used by BASF for Z-Cote.

AVO do not protect fully in the UVAI. It peaks at 358nm and almost no protection after 390nm. ZnO do not provide adequate protection in the whole UV spectrum unlike these charts show.



If ZnO is non-micro/nano than the UVB protection is minimal. But UVAI is extremely good (up to 520nm).
Micro ZnO provides better UVB protection and less UVAI protection. Though the UVAI protection is still concidered good (385nm). this is the best broad spectrum protection in one singel filter. Should be combined with organic filters though like OMC or Polysilicone-15 (not permitted in the US) to achieve better UVB protection. (ZnO stabilizes OMC).

Nano-ZnO provides very good UVB protection, just as good as TiO2 but UVAII protection is partial and UVAI is as good as non-existent.

Why ZnO is such a good sunscreen agent alone is because it can really give broad-spectrum protection in one single agent when it is used in high enough concentration (15%+). AND it is inherently photo-stable.
While organic filters provide higher SPF (UVB protection) and UVAII protection pr. percent of active required to achieve the required SPF/PPD (and they are conciderably cheaper when it comes to costs) they tend to provide narrower protection scale and they tend to be extremely photo-unstable. Hence they should be reapplied every 2 hours and combined with each other to provide broader protection.
The only true organic UVAI protection is possible with Tinosorb M. But it is not really an organic filter either. It is a so called organic particle filter. It is also inherently photostable. Its real advantage is that it is water soluble while almost all other filters (inorganic filters included) are oil soluble. The other good thing is that it is very affordable and it gives high UVA II and I protection pr. % active used. The drawback: it is not worldwide approved.

Why organic filters are so popular is because they are cheap to produce. Much less actives are needed to achieve high SPF sunscreens or UVA(II) protection. The profit can be increased much more than using 20% ZnO to achieve a sunscreen with lower SPF (but with the same UVA(II) protection or lower). The cost for this sunscreen is about 7-10 times more than achieving the same UVA(II) protection with organic filters (like AVO).
Organic filters are much more cosmetically elegant as well. So it is easier to sell.
But from the consumers' point they are though elegant (or more elegant) and cheaper, they are photo-unstable and have to be reapplied every 2h.

With todays technology it is possible to produce ZnO containing sunscreens with 15-25% ZnO, combined with OMC (7.5%) to achieve high SPF (50) and adequate UVA protection (PPD20). These sunscreens can be formulated mattish (while organic ones are almost always very oily and shiny). ZnO containing sunscreens with the right formulation can be used as visual skin perfectors (while organics actually make the imperfections of the skin look more pronounced).
The Refractive Index of ZnO can easily be turned into a very nice skin-veil that actually hides imperfections and makes it more dewy.

But the real difference between an organic sunscreen and a ZnO (15%+) containing one is that the UVAI protection from 385nm is usually non-existent for organic sunscreens (even when they contain TiO2*) while the one with 15%+ ZnO has at least PPD 10 at 385nm and about 4-8 at 400nm (depending on the particle size). So it provides lower SPF and PPD (UVAII) but it actually does cover the whole UVA spectrum! And again it is inherently photostable!

(PPD 20 means 95% protection; 15 means 93% protection; 8 means 87% protection!)

So what is better a sunscreen with AVO with an impressive PPD 30 (96% protection**) at 360nm but about 2 (50% protection**) at 390nm and 0 at 400nm, OR a ZnO containing sunscreen with a modest PPD 15 (93% protection at 360nm and PPD 17 -94% protection- at 385nm) and about PPD 8 (87% protection) at 400nm?

*Inorganic filters cannot be combined with AVO in the US! Inorganic filters are: TiO2, TinOxide, ZnO.
** Sunscreens containing AVO usually loose their protecting abilities by 50% after as little as 20 min after application.

[Eva Victoria]

Here are more visual demonstrations of different UV filters.

Attached Files

•  UV_Spectrum_diff._UV_filters.pdf   122.16KB   97 downloads

[mustardseed41]

Thanks Eva for that. Any idea how we might go about making our own sunscreen like this:

ZnO containing sunscreens with 15-25% ZnO, combined with OMC (7.5%) to achieve high SPF (50) and adequate UVA protection (PPD20). These sunscreens can be formulated mattish (while organic ones are almost always very oily and shiny).

[Eva Victoria]

Thanks Eva for that. Any idea how we might go about making our own sunscreen like this:

ZnO containing sunscreens with 15-25% ZnO, combined with OMC (7.5%) to achieve high SPF (50) and adequate UVA protection (PPD20). These sunscreens can be formulated mattish (while organic ones are almost always very oily and shiny).

Oh, that is not so easy.
First of all even if you have a recipe you will need special equipment to be able to disperse pigments (ZnO) and homogenizer (Ultra Turrax) to be able to achieve fine particle size and to be sure that the oil and water phase are properly mixed and the filters are properly distributed in the product and later on your skin.
These equipments are very expencive. Without them you won't be able to make a proper sunscreen.

While it is not neccessary for making your own serums it is needed for creams and lotions but it is indispensible for making sunscreens.

[happy lemon]

Eva,

3 questions:

1. In the Olay chart, what percentage of those filters should be formulated in the sunscreen so that it can achieve the claimed protection? Take Zinc Oxide as an example, if I am looking for a ZnO sunscreen which can protect me up to 380nm, what should the minimum % of ZnO be in the sunscreen?


2. Usually we know the percentage of inorganic filters in the sunscreen, however, we don't know the percentage of organic ones. Does it mean that as long as we find it in the ingredients list, then it implies that it can protect us as it claims in the Olay chart? For example, is it true that any sunscreen made with Tinosorb S & M can have protection up to 390nm?


3. If I want to have a tan body, is it safe for me to use this sunscreen?

http://www.bioderma....action/606.html

[Eva Victoria]

My answers are in blue.

1. In the Olay chart, what percentage of those filters should be formulated in the sunscreen so that it can achieve the claimed protection? Take Zinc Oxide as an example, if I am looking for a ZnO sunscreen which can protect me up to 380nm, what should the minimum % of ZnO be in the sunscreen?

ZnO should be mixed with OMC for better UVB protection. If you choose Z-cote you'll achieve good enough protection up to 390nm by using 15-20% ZnO.
The higher the percentage of the active the higher the protection at the given nm. It is valid for all sunscreen agents!


2. Usually we know the percentage of inorganic filters in the sunscreen, however, we don't know the percentage of organic ones.

You don't always know the percentage of organic or inorganic filters. At least not in the EU.
In the US, CA and AU it has to be displayed on the packaging. The percentage of all actives that contribute to the product's SPF.

Does it mean that as long as we find it in the ingredients list, then it implies that it can protect us as it claims in the Olay chart?

The chart from Olay is not exactly correct. Tinosorb M protects way over 390nm. But in theory the filters used in a sunscreen will protect you to its given spectrum. At least for the first 20min. But there is a difference between having a PPD 4 or a PPD 10 at 390nm. The higher PPD you want the more actives (that protect in that spectrum) should be added.

For example, is it true that any sunscreen made with Tinosorb S & M can have protection up to 390nm?

Yes. Though the PPD can vary greatly.

3. If I want to have a tan body, is it safe for me to use this sunscreen?

http://www.bioderma....action/606.html

It has an SPF40. It will take a long time to achieve a tan boddy with this But it seems a good sunscreen with photostable filters. As always from Bioderma.


This is from the website: • Photoderm BRONZ activates, intensifies and durably prolongs the tan. On the one hand, it stimulates the production of melanin, the pigment that naturally protects the skin against the sun’s rays and which is responseble for the skin colouring. On the other hand, Photoderm BRONZ helps to ensure the melanin is homogeneously distributed, thus achieving an even tan.
This is only advertising.

If you want a tan body (which I never recommend!) a lower SPF is better.
SPF 15 (UVA 10?) till you achieve the colour of your wish and then (the best) is to avoid the sun. However if you wish to be in the sun then stick to a high SPF sunscreen with high UVA protection!