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Sunifiram?

sunifiram

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1539 replies to this topic

#1081 Climactic

  • Location:USA

Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:25 PM

I should also reiterate that using Gaba agonists/mimetics do carry the risk of dependence (as in the case of Phenibut, Baclofen, Benzos and Gabapentin/Lyrica to a lesser extent) so shouldn't be used for long and sporadically if at all possible, especially when considering phenibut and for those prone to addiction, benzos. Baclofen has nearly no recreational potential and is easier to come off. NMDA antagonists aside from Magnesium may also be the way to go if you can tolerate them as they're job is to block glutamate where the gabaergics help restore a balance between Glutamate and Gaba in scenarios where excitotoxicity may be of concern.


Yeap, the above is important. Also, I think "long acting" (with a large half-life) is vital. I naively estimate that a redose should be after 2/3rds of the half-life has completed. For example, if the half life is 12 hours, a redose should follow after every 8 hours. Is this reasonable? Personal trials are planned.

Tapering off slowly at the end is presumably consequential too for these classes of drugs.

Magnesium, even magnesium threonate, wears out rather fast and hasn't really done much for me or Rudy. I take it anyway.

I now finally have a hypothesis for why alcohol, which I think is both a gabaergic and an NMDA antagonist, does not help and actually worsens the symptoms for a whole day. I think the explanation is that it is too short acting, and evokes a strong rebound effect. I think this was mentioned on this thread previously by the user Lenses. Or if there is some other reason, such as its effect on specific serotonin receptors, I wouldn't know.

Edited by Climactic, 21 June 2013 - 06:31 PM.

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#1082 Rudy Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Houston
  • no

Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

I'm sorry for being incredibly slow in regards to the current topic, but hypothetically speaking, if I had over activated certain receptors as a result of using sunifiram, and experiencing said headaches as a result, what would be the beat course of action to remedy the situation? Is staying off of sunifiram for a long while enough for things to balance out, or am I to take immediate reaction. Sorry but the earlier poster has sparked a certain paranoia in me.


hopefully is just all in your mind.. but yes u should stop everything. if u happen to be sensitive to coffee than yes u over sensitized your NMDA receptor.. try some NAC
  • -2

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#1083 gnappi Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Belo Horizonte, Brazil

Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:51 PM


I cannot get me some memantine and the doctor only recommended Mezicline for tinnitus
Im so nervous right now
Any body that is going thru this or have had the experience? I need to talk to someone


I can relate to that nervous feeling but I would try very hard to keep calm and not freak out as that could make things (seem) worse.

Secondly, I have no idea as to how to solve this. What I personally am going to do is stay abstinent of just about everything (save fish oil, and green tea). Our bodies are pretty good at getting back to homeostasis, that is my plan of action, but my symptoms are just tinnitus without the pain your describing. So I can very easily see how your more desperate than I.
I wish I never trialed sunifiram, ugh....

Try oxytocin spray nasal. I use with excellent results. It takes effect in minutes. Just one spray in each nostril. :^)
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#1084 Climactic Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:25 PM



I cannot get me some memantine and the doctor only recommended Mezicline for tinnitus
Im so nervous right now
Any body that is going thru this or have had the experience? I need to talk to someone


I can relate to that nervous feeling but I would try very hard to keep calm and not freak out as that could make things (seem) worse.

Secondly, I have no idea as to how to solve this. What I personally am going to do is stay abstinent of just about everything (save fish oil, and green tea). Our bodies are pretty good at getting back to homeostasis, that is my plan of action, but my symptoms are just tinnitus without the pain your describing. So I can very easily see how your more desperate than I.
I wish I never trialed sunifiram, ugh....

Try oxytocin spray nasal. I use with excellent results. It takes effect in minutes. Just one spray in each nostril. :^)

How might oxytocin fix the suggested problem of NMDAR overactivation? Moreover, where does one get its genuine nasal spray?

Edited by Climactic, 21 June 2013 - 11:32 PM.

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#1085 3AlarmLampscooter Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Every nook and cranny... of our little town.
  • yes

Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:37 PM

Does look possible: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7908300

Unitedpharmacies appears to stock it, although I have no experience with them: http://www.unitedpha...p?productid=879
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#1086 gnappi Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Belo Horizonte, Brazil

Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:39 PM




I cannot get me some memantine and the doctor only recommended Mezicline for tinnitus
Im so nervous right now
Any body that is going thru this or have had the experience? I need to talk to someone


I can relate to that nervous feeling but I would try very hard to keep calm and not freak out as that could make things (seem) worse.

Secondly, I have no idea as to how to solve this. What I personally am going to do is stay abstinent of just about everything (save fish oil, and green tea). Our bodies are pretty good at getting back to homeostasis, that is my plan of action, but my symptoms are just tinnitus without the pain your describing. So I can very easily see how your more desperate than I.
I wish I never trialed sunifiram, ugh....

Try oxytocin spray nasal. I use with excellent results. It takes effect in minutes. Just one spray in each nostril. :^)

How might oxytocin fix the suggested problem of NMDAR overactivation? Moreover, where does one get its genuine nasal spray?

I know from my own experience that oxytocin is anxiolytic by using a nasal spray. This spray I buy here in Brazil at any drugstore without prescription. :^)
p.s.: An interesting site: http://www.raysaheli...m/oxytocin.html

Edited by gnappi, 21 June 2013 - 11:42 PM.

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#1087 Geoffrey Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:UK

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:15 AM

*
POPULAR

Some people here have been taking 10 x the recommended dose from extrapolated rodent studies and then complain about pressure headaches as if they had no idea that taking 10 x a dose of many medicines which are otherwise beneficial could probably kill you. If I took 10 x the recommended dose of paracetamol, I'd either end up dead or in hospital with a destroyed liver. If I combine it with an alcohol binge, I'd almost definitely be dead. So why are people taking HUGE doses of drugs that don't have human studies done on them, often mixing them with huge doses of other stimulants or drugs, and then seem surprised by the outcome? Sure, this forum can offer advice on what to do in the aftermath of such excesses, but people, please proceed with caution and don't jump into large, untested doses of any substance, and don't mix it with a bunch of other things when the interactions are unknown...

Despite all the recent negative sentiment, I've been getting very good results from sunifiram at recommended doses. Superb clarity of mind -- much better than any other nootropic I've tried (if sunifiram is a nootropic) -- and great recall. I do get side effects, which I listed in the sunifiram side effects thread, but so far none of them are bothersome, and several of them have disappeared with continued administration. I have also gone cold turkey for a few days, with no ill effects other than the return of slight tinnitus which the sunifiram had banished, and a sense of deflation as my mind slowly returns to its baseline. Perhaps also some tiredness.

Regarding the cancer scare: yes, we need to be careful. But it's clear that PKC-α has many important functions in the body, and is naturally activated/stimulated by the process of learning. It makes a lot of sense that many nootropics probably act on this pathway. So far it seems that galantamine and oxiracetam both activate PKC, and two pubmed articles speculate that this is one of the basic mechanisms underlying many nootropic substances. I'm not going to remove my testes because they also activate PKC-α. So I really think a bit of common sense is needed all round. Proceed with caution with these untested substances (and for those who are jumping ship to unifiram, remember how closely related it is in molecular structure to sunifiram), don't take 10 x the recommended dose, but also don't overreact to the news that the racerams (and probably also most racetams) help express certain biochemical substances which are involved in essential memory/learning processes, but also happen to get overexpressed by certain types of cancer. After all, a commonly consumed substance such as alcohol has been shown to be a trigger for seven types of cancer, yet in moderation it has well documented health benefits. Water, taken in megadoses, can also kill you.

Edited by Geoffrey, 22 June 2013 - 09:19 AM.

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#1088 Climactic Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

Some people here have been taking 10 x the recommended dose from extrapolated rodent studies and then complain about pressure headaches


I actually had taken no more than 6mg sunifiram on that day, so that's hardly 10x the extrapolated rodent dose. Another person who messaged me took only two microscoops. Sunifiram, even in moderate doses, will interact with a bunch of other stimulants, racetams, LTP agents, and glutamatergics, potentially leading to a positive feedback effect that'll upregulate receptors to dangerous levels for the long-term.

About PKCa, there is the difference between its activation and overactivation. How sure are you that sunifiram will not overactivate it?

A clean and selective ampakine wouldn't mess with the dangerous NMDA receptor.

Edited by Climactic, 22 June 2013 - 09:44 AM.

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#1089 golden1 Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:US

Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:57 PM


Some people here have been taking 10 x the recommended dose from extrapolated rodent studies and then complain about pressure headaches


I actually had taken no more than 6mg sunifiram on that day, so that's hardly 10x the extrapolated rodent dose. Another person who messaged me took only two microscoops. Sunifiram, even in moderate doses, will interact with a bunch of other stimulants, racetams, LTP agents, and glutamatergics, potentially leading to a positive feedback effect that'll upregulate receptors to dangerous levels for the long-term.

how do you conclude that
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#1090 Climactic Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:57 PM



Some people here have been taking 10 x the recommended dose from extrapolated rodent studies and then complain about pressure headaches


I actually had taken no more than 6mg sunifiram on that day, so that's hardly 10x the extrapolated rodent dose. Another person who messaged me took only two microscoops. Sunifiram, even in moderate doses, will interact with a bunch of other stimulants, racetams, LTP agents, and glutamatergics, potentially leading to a positive feedback effect that'll upregulate receptors to dangerous levels for the long-term.

how do you conclude that


J Neurophysiol. 2006 Nov;96(5):2488-500. Epub 2006 Aug 16.

Electrophysiological mechanisms of delayed excitotoxicity: positive feedback loop between NMDA receptor current and depolarization-mediated glutamate release.

Delayed excitotoxic neuronal death after insult from exposure to high glutamate concentrations appears important in several CNS disorders. Although delayed excitotoxicity is known to depend on NMDA receptor (NMDAR) activity and Ca(2+) elevation, the electrophysiological mechanisms underlying postinsult persistence of NMDAR activation are not well understood. Membrane depolarization and nonspecific cationic current in the postinsult period were reported previously, but were not sensitive to NMDAR antagonists. Here, we analyzed mechanisms of the postinsult period using parallel current- and voltage-clamp recording and Ca(2+) imaging in primary hippocampal cultured neurons. We also compared more vulnerable older neurons [about 22 days in vitro (DIV)] to more resistant younger (about 15 DIV) neurons, to identify processes selectively associated with cell death in older neurons. During exposure to a modest glutamate insult (20 microM, 5 min), similar degrees of Ca(2+) elevation, membrane depolarization, action potential block, and increased inward current occurred in younger and older neurons. However, after glutamate withdrawal, these processes recovered rapidly in younger but not in older neurons. The latter also exhibited a concurrent postinsult increase in spontaneous miniature excitatory postsynaptic currents, reflecting glutamate release. Importantly, postinsult NMDAR antagonist administration reversed all of these persisting responses in older cells. Conversely, repolarization of the membrane by voltage clamp immediately after glutamate exposure reversed the NMDAR-dependent Ca(2+) elevation. Together, these data suggest that, in vulnerable neurons, excitotoxic insult induces a sustained positive feedback loop between NMDAR-dependent current and depolarization-mediated glutamate release, which persists after withdrawal of exogenous glutamate and drives Ca(2+) elevation and delayed excitotoxicity.


The abstract mentions "postinsult persistence of NMDAR activation". Feel free to read the whole article. The real story is much uglier.

Edited by Climactic, 22 June 2013 - 03:07 PM.

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#1091 golden1 Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:US

Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:58 PM

That is certainly interesting to me in regards more so to benzo excitotoxicity, thanks. Still I'm not sure excitotoxicity is causing your problems, wish I had more insight than that though, but it seems important not to overlook the fact that it could have done something completely different which causes the side effects you and some others are reporting.
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#1092 deeptrance Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:24 PM

Is there a marketer of sunifiram who is marking down everything posted by Climactic? He had a negative 1 for his post above in which he simply quoted a valuable study that should be of interest to anyone who is serious about understanding the science behind sunifiram rather than merely trying to pump it up and sell it. This is a general pattern in this thread, people get negative rep for having a bad experience with sunifiram and positive rep for raving in favor of it.

Posts should be judged by the quality of the content, not the content's level of agreement with the reader's biases.

...why are people taking HUGE doses of drugs that don't have human studies done on them, often mixing them with huge doses of other stimulants or drugs, and then seem surprised by the outcome?


My guess is that many of us have an irrational mentality toward non-prescription, legal drugs, herbs, and supplements. I don't think it's a conscious process of saying "This can't be dangerous because it's only a supplement", rather I believe it to be an underlying attitude, a frame of mind. This is probably why I dosed too high with sunifiram.

Another factor was that I was reading Isochroma's posts about fantastic results from taking frequent large doses, and this predisposed me to the idea that I, too, might experience some of what he was experiencing. So when I started out taking about 20mg twice a day, I felt that I was being on the conservative side of dosing relative to some of the rave reviews I've been seeing. This doesn't excuse me, and I'm not faulting someone else. I'm just saying that some of us are reckless in the way we combine, dose, schedule, and trial these substances and I'm guilty of all the above.

Edited by deeptrance, 22 June 2013 - 07:24 PM.

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#1093 lostfalco Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:the present

Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:45 PM




I cannot get me some memantine and the doctor only recommended Mezicline for tinnitus
Im so nervous right now
Any body that is going thru this or have had the experience? I need to talk to someone


I can relate to that nervous feeling but I would try very hard to keep calm and not freak out as that could make things (seem) worse.

Secondly, I have no idea as to how to solve this. What I personally am going to do is stay abstinent of just about everything (save fish oil, and green tea). Our bodies are pretty good at getting back to homeostasis, that is my plan of action, but my symptoms are just tinnitus without the pain your describing. So I can very easily see how your more desperate than I.
I wish I never trialed sunifiram, ugh....

Try oxytocin spray nasal. I use with excellent results. It takes effect in minutes. Just one spray in each nostril. :^)

How might oxytocin fix the suggested problem of NMDAR overactivation? Moreover, where does one get its genuine nasal spray?

http://www.antiaging-systems.com/145-oxytocin-love-drug

Disclaimer: I've never tried Oxytocin from anti-aging systems or any other site. Just sharing info and hoping you get better. =)
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#1094 deeptrance Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

...the statement that there have been no human studies being sufficient information on the wikipedia page for anyone with half a brain.


Wow. That sounds like a policy of harm maximization. You're basically saying, "Anyone who needs more warning than the statement of 'no human studies' has less than half a brain and doesn't deserve any further warning." Nice attitude, do you also defend pharmaceutical companies against class action lawsuits?

If any of you taking this have the impression that you are anything more than a guinea pig, you have bigger issues than anything which Sunifiram might do to you.


I get that you're impatient with people who you deem to be of inferior intellect, but do you really not give a shit about their safety and well-being? Elitist much?

You've made some ridiculous assertions about those of us who have had negative reactions. I am 100% positive that you would have no doubt about the validity of our concerns if you were the one experiencing extremely obvious effects that are clearly stemming from sunifiram itself, effects that happen to coincide with precisely what would be expected given what is currently known about the pharmacology of suni. I learned about the reasons for my reaction after I had the reaction, I didn't read about it and then take suni with the expectation that I might have a certain outcome. I had a very positive expectation and got whacked upside the head.

Stop deleting valid comments on Wikipedia. If you want to trash what other people write on there, then try deleting some of the ridiculous hype in favor of research chemicals, that would be a much more useful cause.

Honestly, people, only Vishnu simultaneously facepalming with all of his hands would do my reaction to all of this justice.


Thanks for that visual, you put big smiles on my faces!

Edited by deeptrance, 22 June 2013 - 08:13 PM.

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#1095 Sunwind Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:England

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

How many people exactly (and who) have had a bad reaction from Sunifiram, and where can I read their first reports of problems?
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#1096 Climactic Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:20 PM

How many people exactly (and who) have had a bad reaction from Sunifiram, and where can I read their first reports of problems?


deeptrance, Climactic (myself), Southern_Lights, Rudy, and another user who messaged me privately.

At least for my symptoms, and considering that a gabaergic helped me temporarily, there is no other possible hypothesis that comes to mind but glutamate receptor overactivation. My sunifiram doses were actually much lower than indicated in my original post, with a total not exceeding 6mg. The discrepancy happened due to an initial overestimate of the weight of the dose per microscoop.

Considering that the sunifiram excitement remains well fueled by hope and faith, I think you'll see more instances of some people falling victim to it.

Edited by Climactic, 22 June 2013 - 08:37 PM.

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#1097 Sunwind Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:England

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:25 PM


How many people exactly (and who) have had a bad reaction from Sunifiram, and where can I read their first reports of problems?


deeptrance, Climactic (myself), Rudy, and another who messaged me privately.

At least for my symptoms, and considering that a gabaergic helped me temporarily, there is no other possible hypothesis that comes to mind but glutamate receptor overactivation.


Thanks. Why did this 4th guy not post about his experience publicly, are you still in contact with him? If so, try and get him to post.
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#1098 Climactic Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:26 PM

Why did this 4th guy not post about his experience publicly, are you still in contact with him? If so, try and get him to post.

I have indeed been trying. I have requested him to post. I am in intermittent contact with him.

But then you have to ask - how many victim reports do you want to read before you consider the concern to be significant?

Edited by Climactic, 22 June 2013 - 08:29 PM.

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#1099 Southern_Lights Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:30 PM

I have also had side effects I believe are due to sunifiram, I believe my post is on pg 34. My original trial is much earlier. I can't link right now because I'm at work on my phone.
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#1100 deeptrance Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:46 PM

For a while I have debated posting a symptom I believe is due to Sunifiram.
Now something I have noticed since my trial, is a heightened sense of sound. I don’t really know how to explain it, and it isn’t really pleasant. It’s not that I can hear “better” exactly, but if ambient noise is clear, I can hear really distant sounds. I have heard neighbors conversations etc. that are much more clear and pronounced than before. Now I can’t be sure by any means that this is due to Suni, or even a real effect, as I have no objectivity. However it is something I have noticed.


The way I describe it to people is that it's like the world (my ambient audible environment) is inside headphones that I can't remove. It's like sounds are hyper-real, and have a physical presence to them. For the most part I don't mind this, and at times I rather like it. But during the worst of my suni experience I often felt that sounds were assaulting me, especially any sound coming from outside the house.

I was able to tame the sunifiram symptoms within about 5 days of cessation. I've tried low doses on 3 occasions since, and haven't had a bad recurrence of side effects, although the sides were present enough that I didn't take any further doses until a few days passed. The benefits of sunifiram were radically obvious to me, which is why I won't swear off the stuff. Just have to get things tweaked perfectly in terms of dosage, frequency, and combinations.

I wish I could easily identify what helped me get over the miserable excitation state. I sympathize with those who are trapped in that condition, it's slightly hellish and not unlike the descriptions I've read of phenibut withdrawal.

In case any sufferers want to look into one or more of these substances I'm taking, here's a list:
- all herbs are taken as standardized extracts
bacopa
ashwagandha
magnolia
hawthorn berry
schisandra
jiaogulan
eleuthero

l-theanine
picamilon
magnesium citrate (250mg x 3/day)
calcium citrate (same)
zinc picolinate
vitamins
DHA and EPA
uridine
n-acetyl-cysteine
pantothenic acid
inositol
citicoline
and more!

plus:
gabapentin 300mg x 3/day (this has proved to be essential and may trump everything else in my list)

I'm doing fine now. Just some exaggerated audio and a slightly elevated level of tinnitus that isn't enough to bother me. I hope the others will get such relief in the near future.

Edited by deeptrance, 22 June 2013 - 09:06 PM.

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#1101 Climactic Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:00 PM

I sympathize with those who are trapped in that condition, it's slightly hellish and not unlike the descriptions I've read of phenibut withdrawal.

I think this is an excellent analogy, not that I've ever had phenibut withdrawal, but now that you mentioned it, I've read of it.

About the substances, you had also told me about panax ginseng.

Edited by Climactic, 22 June 2013 - 09:13 PM.

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#1102 RawProduce Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:*

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:11 PM

Does look possible: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7908300

Unitedpharmacies appears to stock it, although I have no experience with them: http://www.unitedpha...p?productid=879


Have dealt with Unitedpharmacies on a number of occasions and they're legit. Had a problem with a few items I ordered being out of stock once and was notified of this after I placed the order but before payment was taken which was a little annoying but they got in contact about it relatively quickly. So yeah, decent enough.
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#1103 xsiv1 Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Canada

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:52 PM


For a while I have debated posting a symptom I believe is due to Sunifiram.
Now something I have noticed since my trial, is a heightened sense of sound. I don’t really know how to explain it, and it isn’t really pleasant. It’s not that I can hear “better” exactly, but if ambient noise is clear, I can hear really distant sounds. I have heard neighbors conversations etc. that are much more clear and pronounced than before. Now I can’t be sure by any means that this is due to Suni, or even a real effect, as I have no objectivity. However it is something I have noticed.


The way I describe it to people is that it's like the world (my ambient audible environment) is inside headphones that I can't remove. It's like sounds are hyper-real, and have a physical presence to them. For the most part I don't mind this, and at times I rather like it. But during the worst of my suni experience I often felt that sounds were assaulting me, especially any sound coming from outside the house.

I was able to tame the sunifiram symptoms within about 5 days of cessation. I've tried low doses on 3 occasions since, and haven't had a bad recurrence of side effects, although the sides were present enough that I didn't take any further doses until a few days passed. The benefits of sunifiram were radically obvious to me, which is why I won't swear off the stuff. Just have to get things tweaked perfectly in terms of dosage, frequency, and combinations.

I wish I could easily identify what helped me get over the miserable excitation state. I sympathize with those who are trapped in that condition, it's slightly hellish and not unlike the descriptions I've read of phenibut withdrawal.

In case any sufferers want to look into one or more of these substances I'm taking, here's a list:
- all herbs are taken as standardized extracts
bacopa
ashwagandha
magnolia
hawthorn berry
schisandra
jiaogulan
eleuthero

l-theanine
picamilon
magnesium citrate (250mg x 3/day)
calcium citrate (same)
zinc picolinate
vitamins
DHA and EPA
uridine
n-acetyl-cysteine
pantothenic acid
inositol
citicoline
and more!

plus:
gabapentin 300mg x 3/day (this has proved to be essential and may trump everything else in my list)

I'm doing fine now. Just some exaggerated audio and a slightly elevated level of tinnitus that isn't enough to bother me. I hope the others will get such relief in the near future.


I now have 4 grams of Suni and have yet to venture and try it but having lived through glutamate excitotoxicity and in addition to the outstanding list deeptrance has created (I'd add Bacopa (<edit:; I see you have Bacopa and Honokiol) but perhaps Kava Kava (the quality stuff like from Paradise Heerbs) may help as well. Works on GabaA but some report that it has a reverse tolerance profile meaning that one needs less of the herb to exert it's effect after time. Liver toxicity is an issue with consistent use of Kava Kava so some Liv52, inositol or NAC/with Vit C is warranted if one does decide to add it) One might also consider Lyrica (similar to Gabapentin but without the crazy dosing/ inverse bioavailability issues) since it's both a glutamate and calcium channel blocker:

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pregabalin

MedCab carries it I believe and know of people who've had success with them and the actual compound when combating glutamate excess. Their 'symptoms' didn't include headaches though. It was as if their brains were over-firing causing dramatic anxiety, restlessness, agitation, insomnia, flu-like symptoms etc. Lyrica handled it easily and if used for a short period of time, can be tapered off of without much trouble. I'd say it's safe to stay on a Gaba mimetic like this (although it doesn't actually affect the Gaba receptors) for a month than on a benzo for a month. I've had personal experiences with both. The benzos I've tried have nearly all induced the need for sleep and worked for anxiety. Although, historically, I've liked Gaba-acting compounds (loved my alcohol 7 years ago), I've never been fond of benzos for any of their recreational value. I haven't tried Xanax or some of the other less-sedating ones, which I'm kind of happy about lol.
Here's an excerpt from the Wiki page on it's pharmacological action:

Pharmacodynamics

Like gabapentin, pregabalin binds to the α2δ (alpha2delta) subunit of the voltage-dependent calcium channel in the central nervous system. Pregabalin decreases the release of neurotransmitters including glutamate, norepinephrine, substance P and calcitonin gene-related peptide.[21] However, unlike anxiolytic compounds (e.g., benzodiazepines) which exert their therapeutic effects through binding to GABAA, GABAB, and benzodiazepine receptors, pregabalin neither binds directly to these receptors nor augments GABAA currents or affects GABA metabolism (Pfizer Inc. 2006).[22] The half life for pregabalin is 6.3 hours.[23]

Edited by xsiv1, 22 June 2013 - 10:00 PM.

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#1104 brainslugged Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Georgia, US

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:55 PM

It makes me sad to read bad experiences with this substance. I was worried that this sort of thing would happen, especially with the sensationalism that was common in the thread at times.

Please proceed with caution and remember that no substance is completely safe. I don't think that experimentation should be discouraged, just look at all the great discoveries made by Shulgin's experiments, but it is vitally important to be careful and NOT to promote reckless behavior with any substance, and especially not with one that hasn't even had any human trials.

For those of you who want to try memantine, there are sources you can get it from on the internet if your doctor cannot prescribe it. There is also a legal benzo named etizolam that may be helpful. alldaychemist.com is a pretty reliable source (though they have had credit card issues in the past), and you can find sources on http://www.pharmacyreviewer.com/ as well. Be sure to use a disposable credit card and never give away your bank account information. Some online pharms, even though they may have a good rating, have trouble with their payment systems since they are generally a high-risk area for conventional payment processors (due to people using stolen credit cards).

Take care.

Edited by brainslugged, 22 June 2013 - 09:55 PM.

  • 3

#1105 Southern_Lights Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:36 PM

The way I describe it to people is that it's like the world (my ambient audible environment) is inside headphones that I can't remove. It's like sounds are hyper-real, and have a physical presence to them. For the most part I don't mind this, and at times I rather like it. But during the worst of my suni experience I often felt that sounds were assaulting me, especially any sound coming from outside the house.


This is scary how accurate your description is. Pretty much exactly how i feel. I am more afraid of the permenant damage than the temporary annoyance though.

Also is anyone noticing particular times of your symptoms? I notice my ears ring and I get pressure headaches more so in the morning than the evening.

--
Since Etizolam was brought up I thought I'd add my personal experience. First if you have an addictive personality or like benzos in general, I WOULD STAY AWAY. They are like candy (seriously they are orange flavored) and it is SO EASY to just take one every day, oh and they cost practically nothing so that's not an issue. It can become a habit insanely fast. They also carry a very short duration ~2hours. I would say that Valium would be a much better alternative due to the half-life, the same reason it is used for epileptics. If you do want them though > Valentinesupply.org is legit. There is an even better website but that one is MINE (cheaper) hehe, unless you wanna PM me.

Also in regards to Etizolam, I should mention that I was taking these around the same time as my sunifiram trial. And after sunifiram I contiuned with etizolam, around 3 weeks ago I finally stopped the Etiz. This would be approx 1 month after I stopped sunifiram. I have some belief that me stopping a benzo has something to do with the side-effects I am experiencing now. However Etizolam is really selective in it's binding profile and treats anxiety perfectly, compared to say xanax which also kills anxiety but gets you "high" as well. (etizolam is a sniper, xanax is a rocket).
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#1106 golden1 Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:US

Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:53 PM

All benzos are relatively the same when it comes to withdrawal and have very little different in their binding affinities to different GABA(a) subunits that would effect them causing or not causing withdrawal. I would guess/insist that Etizolam has a lot to do with any side effects you have, if not being the sole cause.
https://en.wikipedia...ns_and_symptoms
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#1107 Introspecta Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:Massachusetts U.S

Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:57 PM

Pyrazolam is a more superb benzo than etizolam in my opinion due to its less drowsy effects and ability to kill anxiety. Etizolam seemed to make me almost non functional due to how sleepy I would be even at .5 mgs.

Regarding the topic of Sunifiram I lowered my dose and really havn't been noticing the benefits I did the first time. I'm kind of upset because I really enjoyed the effects of Suni especially for motivation and focus. I asked before but I will ask 1 more time. Has anybody tried the product. Stopped then started again with a new order and had different effects that are not as enjoyable as the first time? I don't want to toss my Sunifiram yet but something honestly tells me this batch feels different or my brain is at a different level than it once was.
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#1108 Southern_Lights Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:26 PM

All benzos are relatively the same when it comes to withdrawal and have very little different in their binding affinities to different GABA(a) subunits that would effect them causing or not causing withdrawal. I would guess/insist that Etizolam has a lot to do with any side effects you have, if not being the sole cause.
https://en.wikipedia...ns_and_symptoms


How confident are you in saying that, is this personal experience or is this info from a wikipedia article? I am not meaning to attack you just wondering.

Because I have gotten addicted to (thanks doctors!) and withdrew from xanax, on probably 2 different occasions (at most 2mg per day). I have also gotten into some Etiz habbits (At most 2mg per day with the vast majority at 1mg per day) so not as bad as I got into xanax.

The withdrawls and dependency are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT however, I say this from personal experience not an article on the internet. Xanax w/d's are 10000 fold worse than etizolam. Etiz barely has ANY w/d. There was noticable anxiety following cessation of etizolam but this was a walk in the park compared to xanax. With that I could barely eat, barely sleep, and was very very depersonalized.

Also Etizolam has a REVERSE tolerance. (Sounds crazy but true). This was something I did first read about on wikipedia THEN I experienced it firsthand. The first batch of Etiz took 2-3mg to feel any effect. The next time I got them, I only needed 1mg max and felt it MUCH stronger than a 2mg had before. Something else to keep in mind is the half-lifes as well. 1 dose of xanax will last easily 8 hours, where as etizolam is around 2 hours. Assuming you don't redose the etiz, I would think it would give your receptors more of a break (although this much is a guess).

Lastly, it has been at least 3 weeks since I stopped etizolam (stopped after a taper schedule, not cold turkey, reduced dose from 1mg-.25 over a 2 week period). If you notice, I did not complain of anything sunifiram related during thoose 5 weeks, nor did I post on this forum once. It was not until the post about tinnitus and pressure headaches that I was interested in this, because that post really struck a chord with things I had been noticing but not paying close attention to.

(sorry for misdirecting the thread)

Edited by Southern_Lights, 22 June 2013 - 11:29 PM.

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#1109 Rethar Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:USA

Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:06 AM


For a while I have debated posting a symptom I believe is due to Sunifiram.
Now something I have noticed since my trial, is a heightened sense of sound. I don't really know how to explain it, and it isn't really pleasant. It's not that I can hear "better" exactly, but if ambient noise is clear, I can hear really distant sounds. I have heard neighbors conversations etc. that are much more clear and pronounced than before. Now I can't be sure by any means that this is due to Suni, or even a real effect, as I have no objectivity. However it is something I have noticed.


The way I describe it to people is that it's like the world (my ambient audible environment) is inside headphones that I can't remove. It's like sounds are hyper-real, and have a physical presence to them. For the most part I don't mind this, and at times I rather like it. But during the worst of my suni experience I often felt that sounds were assaulting me, especially any sound coming from outside the house.

I was able to tame the sunifiram symptoms within about 5 days of cessation. I've tried low doses on 3 occasions since, and haven't had a bad recurrence of side effects, although the sides were present enough that I didn't take any further doses until a few days passed. The benefits of sunifiram were radically obvious to me, which is why I won't swear off the stuff. Just have to get things tweaked perfectly in terms of dosage, frequency, and combinations.

I wish I could easily identify what helped me get over the miserable excitation state. I sympathize with those who are trapped in that condition, it's slightly hellish and not unlike the descriptions I've read of phenibut withdrawal.

I have this same heightened sense of sound since using sunifiram. Initially it was the main reason I would take a break after using sunifiram for 5 days straight and wait a few days before going back on it. By the fifth day sounds would get so loud that I'd literally get annoyed at stuff like having the TV on at a moderate volume.However, lately I've been taking more time off using sunifiram and the heightened sound effect is still there, but it's not at the "annoying" level. Even a week later it stays, kind of reminds me of some of those superhero movies where the hero starts hearing things superloud and all types of sounds around him stand out. For now I don't see it as a bad thing, but after reading some of the latest discussions in this thread I do worry if something like this should be a permanent thing from taking a substance. I also have the increased vibrance of colors effect going on many days after last dosing sunifiram, but that's not annoying at all...it's a nice effect to see things as more vibrant, like sunlight on a sunny day.
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#1110 golden1 Re: Sunifiram?

  • Location:US

Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:29 AM


All benzos are relatively the same when it comes to withdrawal and have very little different in their binding affinities to different GABA(a) subunits that would effect them causing or not causing withdrawal. I would guess/insist that Etizolam has a lot to do with any side effects you have, if not being the sole cause.
https://en.wikipedia...ns_and_symptoms


How confident are you in saying that, is this personal experience or is this info from a wikipedia article? I am not meaning to attack you just wondering.

Because I have gotten addicted to (thanks doctors!) and withdrew from xanax, on probably 2 different occasions (at most 2mg per day). I have also gotten into some Etiz habbits (At most 2mg per day with the vast majority at 1mg per day) so not as bad as I got into xanax.

The withdrawls and dependency are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT however, I say this from personal experience not an article on the internet. Xanax w/d's are 10000 fold worse than etizolam. Etiz barely has ANY w/d. There was noticable anxiety following cessation of etizolam but this was a walk in the park compared to xanax. With that I could barely eat, barely sleep, and was very very depersonalized.

Also Etizolam has a REVERSE tolerance. (Sounds crazy but true). This was something I did first read about on wikipedia THEN I experienced it firsthand. The first batch of Etiz took 2-3mg to feel any effect. The next time I got them, I only needed 1mg max and felt it MUCH stronger than a 2mg had before. Something else to keep in mind is the half-lifes as well. 1 dose of xanax will last easily 8 hours, where as etizolam is around 2 hours. Assuming you don't redose the etiz, I would think it would give your receptors more of a break (although this much is a guess).

Lastly, it has been at least 3 weeks since I stopped etizolam (stopped after a taper schedule, not cold turkey, reduced dose from 1mg-.25 over a 2 week period). If you notice, I did not complain of anything sunifiram related during thoose 5 weeks, nor did I post on this forum once. It was not until the post about tinnitus and pressure headaches that I was interested in this, because that post really struck a chord with things I had been noticing but not paying close attention to.

(sorry for misdirecting the thread)


It is from personal experience. I also don't believe that it's possible for etizolam to have reverse tolerance, probably it is simply because you're getting pills with varying amount of active substance in them. Acute xanax w/d is very bad, my friend had to go through it. But I have been tapering off of clonazepam for months and heck just look at the symptom list it can manifest itself as just about anything and it has for me personally. Also benzo w/d comes in waves. Etizolam also lasted, for me, at least as long as xanax.

See:

Etizolam, a thienodiazepine derivative, is absorbed fairly rapidly, with peak plasma levels achieved between 30 minutes and 2 hours, and has a mean elimination half life of about 3 and a half hours.[12]However, its pharmacologically active metabolitealpha-hydroxyetizolam, which has the same potency as etizolam, is eliminated more slowly, with a mean half life of just over 8 hours.

--wiki

you'd be able to judge better than me, I'm just saying it sounds much more likely from the etizolam from your other post.
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