66 replies to this topic

[deeptrance]

I've taken phenibut every day for more than 2 years as well. My dosage started at 300 mg and is now in the 1 to 2 gram range. I'm not consistent about dosage. Sometimes I take it once in a day, other times twice. A dose for me is a rounded quarter teaspoon, which comes out to anywhere from 0.8 to 1.2 grams. It's possible that I've skipped a day of taking phenibut, here and there.

I definitely notice if I go too long without it, or if I take only the one dose per day for several days in a row. The experience of pre-withdrawal is enough to chase me straight to the phenibut, so I've never attempted to taper off. At this point, I'm not sure if it's having a positive effect on me other than prevention of phenibut withdrawal. Fortunately I'm merely dependent on it, not addicted. An addiction is characterized by tolerance and a diminished effect that makes the user crave higher doses to get back to the main desired effect. I've not had that experience at all, and have never felt "high" from phenibut.

We're not "addicted" to air and water, we're dependent on them. It's a non-trivial distinction.

Fun with phenibut: If you buy it in bulk, as I do, then find some friends who are naive to its effects and talk them into trying 2 to 3 grams. 2 should be enough for most people to go bonkers with delight. One of my friends had the time of his life, he attended a charity event and spent $800 on artwork that had been donated for the cause, and he was the life of the party. Another friend was scheduled to go with me to an Earth Day festival and he was in a bitchy mood, so I talked him into trying phenibut and gave him about 2 grams. A couple hours later, he was more talkative and happy than I've ever seen him, but he denied that it was the phenibut. "I just needed to get out and do something and now I feel great," he said. I had to drag him from one place to the next because he kept getting into long animated chats with strangers. Later that night he went to a dinner party with his wife. He said that he continued to feel awesome and by that time he knew it was the phenibut. He slept really well that night, then had great sex with his wife in the morning, then we went to the gym. He was still in a fantastic mood 24 hours after his first dose.

I always tell people that they might only have one shot at having this type of phenibut euphoria/panacea. I tried taking an extra large dose of 3 grams recently but it just made me nauseous and sloppy, and I regretted doing it. I guess some people are able to get fantastic effects by limiting their use to no more than once a week, but there's no way I'm going to try tapering off of it right now.

[Unistasis]

We're not "addicted" to air and water, we're dependent on them. It's a non-trivial distinction.

 

 

I can agree to that, but if we og deeper into the understand of physiological degeneration, Things arent that simple anymore.

 

Many humans are born or may develop serious abnormalities With hormones and neurochemistry.

 

So basically you can compare water to gaba; the definition lays in the defect or deficiency, but its matter of adopting such a mindset.

 

The addiction rather comes from a grave physiological deficiency or in some cases, a cover up or bandaid to numb a psychological problem.

[deeptrance]

The addiction rather comes from a grave physiological deficiency or in some cases, a cover up or bandaid to numb a psychological problem.

I'm personally convinced that you're right, but I don't know if there's enough evidence of this to get mainstream medicine to agree. I think that addiction specialists, doctors, and psychiatrists should all look at the preferences of addicts and use that to help diagnose underlying deficiencies and abnormalities. Some people love psychedelics and empathogens --- maybe they are serotonin deficient or there is insufficient serotonergic transmission in a part of the brain. Some people like speedy drugs, others want narcotics or sedatives. It seems obvious that these differences are indicative of underlying conditions and aren't just a matter of taste or whim.

[Unistasis]

 

The addiction rather comes from a grave physiological deficiency or in some cases, a cover up or bandaid to numb a psychological problem.

I'm personally convinced that you're right, but I don't know if there's enough evidence of this to get mainstream medicine to agree. I think that addiction specialists, doctors, and psychiatrists should all look at the preferences of addicts and use that to help diagnose underlying deficiencies and abnormalities. Some people love psychedelics and empathogens --- maybe they are serotonin deficient or there is insufficient serotonergic transmission in a part of the brain. Some people like speedy drugs, others want narcotics or sedatives. It seems obvious that these differences are indicative of underlying conditions and aren't just a matter of taste or whim.

 

 

I agree, and addiction aside, some People just tend to like different drugs. different personalities, different lifestyles. Im pretty liberal that way. As long as you dont hurt other human beings, and as long as you dont suffer, I have nothing against, say, a Professional heroinist. thats his or her Choice, but if someone really suffers, them im glad there are clinics, albeit not optimal yet; i hope and see the future of medicine mapping out any opioid receptor deficieny etc.

 

Its interesting times to say the least. There are a huge number of sufferers from autism to ADHD to cfs/me and a lot of other ailments looking into complex nutrition to find solutions.

I am very interested in cannabis as medicine, and I cant wait till People really start to put together these two elements.

 

I think the reason why some of the cannabis treatments fails, is due to lack of proper nutrition, and vice versa when it comes to nutrition.

I just hope i can back on the horse some years from now. Ive experienced extremely positive changes With cannabis in conjunction With the right nutrititon, but its still New, and its a Journey and a process in itself.

[Mad Scientist]

 

The addiction rather comes from a grave physiological deficiency or in some cases, a cover up or bandaid to numb a psychological problem.

I'm personally convinced that you're right, but I don't know if there's enough evidence of this to get mainstream medicine to agree. I think that addiction specialists, doctors, and psychiatrists should all look at the preferences of addicts and use that to help diagnose underlying deficiencies and abnormalities. Some people love psychedelics and empathogens --- maybe they are serotonin deficient or there is insufficient serotonergic transmission in a part of the brain. Some people like speedy drugs, others want narcotics or sedatives. It seems obvious that these differences are indicative of underlying conditions and aren't just a matter of taste or whim.

 

 

Yes there is no one size fits all. People have different preferences.

 

Personally, I don't like pot. I've smoked it a few times when I was a teen. It made me feel way too empathetic and disassociated. The whole 'at peace with the world' feeling isn't my cup of tea ... just way too depressing.

 

On the other hand, I LOVE stimulants. I've been taking Adderall for over five years, and I love that 'rush' I still get every morning. Hypnotics are also interesting, particularly Ambien.

Edited by ericzx777, 17 May 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Unistasis]

 

 

The addiction rather comes from a grave physiological deficiency or in some cases, a cover up or bandaid to numb a psychological problem.

I'm personally convinced that you're right, but I don't know if there's enough evidence of this to get mainstream medicine to agree. I think that addiction specialists, doctors, and psychiatrists should all look at the preferences of addicts and use that to help diagnose underlying deficiencies and abnormalities. Some people love psychedelics and empathogens --- maybe they are serotonin deficient or there is insufficient serotonergic transmission in a part of the brain. Some people like speedy drugs, others want narcotics or sedatives. It seems obvious that these differences are indicative of underlying conditions and aren't just a matter of taste or whim.

 

 

Yes there is no one size fits all. People have different preferences.

 

Personally, I don't like pot. I've smoked it a few times when I was a teen. It made me feel way too empathetic and disassociated. The whole 'at peace with the world' feeling isn't my cup of tea ... just way too depressing.

 

On the other hand, I LOVE stimulants. I've been taking Adderall for over five years, and I love that 'rush' I still get every morning. Hypnotics are also interesting, particularly Ambien.

 

 

very interesting. i love cannabis especially because it makes me feel like im more present in the world, psychologically and emotionally. this does not have to be any esotheric mysticicstic thing, rather it Mirrors what Stanford university discovered in their recent study about cannabis and autism; that cannabis helps the brain communicate better on a Whole.

 

and since i have aspergers tendencies/ADHD, i tend to feel overly analytical, lack empathy to other People, even if i can "feel" for them, With my thoughts, really sometimes feel just like a machinery which only purpose is to keeping itself going.

 

my soul feels lost or trapped inside me, if you know what i mean.

 

on the other side, ive never been much fan of stimulants, but thats changing in a way.

[oneshot2shots]

Great to hear a success story. I use phen twice a week, don't get any withdrawal symptoms. Its simply superb, only regret is my first time is now over, was sublime. Think I used up all the dophamine effects from that, after it was still great but I just don't get the initial high. Also weed doesen't sit well on me, get extemely paranoid and depressed.

 

Again it highlights the fact that despite all the studies, the simple truth is that some people are chemically compatible with some noots, some aren't. It may not well suit the vast majority but it will be a wonderdrug for some, the same can be same of modafinal,sunifram and unifram. Just have to keep searching until the right noot/mix is found.

[deeptrance]

Again it highlights the fact that despite all the studies, the simple truth is that some people are chemically compatible with some noots, some aren't. It may not well suit the vast majority but it will be a wonderdrug for some, the same can be same of modafinal,sunifram and unifram. Just have to keep searching until the right noot/mix is found.

This is so true, and I think a lot of information is lost in the double-blind placebo-controlled randomized clinical trials. They look only at data and statistical inference, which fails to capture the information present in the unexplained variance.

Suppose that 5% of people have a fantastic response to an anti-depressant and another 5% have a negative response, but the other 90% have no notable change in mood. The noise of the 90% overwhelms the data and the 5% improvement vs. 5% worsening cancel each other out, so the drug is never approved and we will all say "it doesn't do anything." But what if it is a miracle drug for 5% of the people and we fail to see this? I think this is probably the case with countless medications that are never brought to market. They could work for many people, but the risk of it making some people worse, or the belief that it is ineffective, lead to its demise.

Within a few decades we should see a lot more customizing of drugs to be compatible with genetic traits and other personal factors, and this will help permit more drugs to be approved for limited use with certain types of people who are most likely to benefit. The current situation makes us all guinea pigs.

[Unistasis]

Just wanted to ask topic starter; Did you notice any physical Enhancement as opposed to before you began phenibut? I've been Reading about how Phenibut may increase Human Growth Hormone, etc.

[MenDis]

After searching around, I can't find any studies on phenibut's toxicity (or lack thereof). I'm looking for a basic study that evaluates liver and kidney toxicity. Genotoxicity would be nice, too. Does anyone have any links to any? Thanks,

[oneshot2shots]

There are none, aside from people on forums claiming "I can feel my liver hurting" its funny one person says something about Phenibut's effect on the liver, a person hears the statement,  takes mega doses and has a bad reaction <- gets phantom liver pains. A snowball effect perpetuated by word of mouth. I'm, still on the fence about every day supplementation, i think phen is actually a healthy supplement(for me), the only worry being down-regulation of GABA and tolerance for some. 

 

I noticed HUGE physical enhancement on some phenibut days, and good enhancement on most, like every supplement for me the effects are generally variable. Last month I had an incredible session, went well beyond what I usually would have done, far beyond anything that could be called Placebo or attributed to other factors. i just couldn't get fatigued, did as much as i could and come back 2-3 mins later and do the exact same amount. 

[deeptrance]

I remain a daily user, now stabilized at 1200 mg per day and 1800 on days when I want a little something extra. As long as I don't get carried away with taking more than this except on rare occasions, I experience no issues whatsoever, on any level of my existence. Two years into my daily use, my blood work was perfect, no issues with kidney or liver or anything. But I've never taken massive doses, the most I ever took was maybe 2.5 grams, and some people take 10x as much as that. You can die from too much of anything, and I think it's just foolish to go that high when you can enjoy so much less.

 

Phenibut is a fantastic "drug" (if that's what it is.) I cannot think of anything else that you can take recreationally that has POSITIVE effects if used properly. When I refer to recreational use, I mean like 2 or 3 grams once a week or less. The people I know who maintain this type of usage have nothing but good things to say about it. It's the only drug I know of where you can feel fantastic for 12 hours and then have a 12-hour "hangover" that feels almost as good, eventually leaving no trace of effect nor any craving for more. Fantastic! But abuse potential absolutely exists, and withdrawal from chronic abuse is, for many people, pretty horrible. Play safe and enjoy, this substance is a real gift from our comrades in the former USSR.

Edited by deeptrance, 26 December 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[NilsOlav]

I invite you all to think about the fact that the creator of the thread:

 

• Registered an account just to make this thread
• Claims that he used a substance for a year straight with no issues when countless people have reported extreme withdrawal and diminishing effects when over an extended period of time
• And then in the middle of his post, he links you to a place to buy phenibut.

 

Call me paranoid, but I'm pretty sure this thread was made by a marketer. Use phenibut once, MAYBE twice a week, no more than that. If anyone did use it for a year straight, I'm sure all benefits would be lost and they would need to keep taking just to avoid withdrawal symptoms, not to get any benefits.

[12 String]

...

Call me paranoid, but I'm pretty sure this thread was made by a marketer. 

 

Maybe, but the OP isn't going to get rich marketing phenibut, because it's cheaper than dirt and easier to get.

 

I appreciate your guidance about taking it no more than twice a week. I've been doing so for years, it always works more or less the same for very successful sleep, and I've never felt compelled to take it more frequently, or to increase the dose. My partner has the same experience. It really is a wonder drug for my elderly age-group.

[deeptrance]

 

I invite you all to think about the fact that the creator of the thread:

 

• Registered an account just to make this thread
• Claims that he used a substance for a year straight with no issues when countless people have reported extreme withdrawal and diminishing effects when over an extended period of time
• And then in the middle of his post, he links you to a place to buy phenibut.

 

Call me paranoid, but I'm pretty sure this thread was made by a marketer. 

 

 

What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me, that it may be a marketer.

 

If you read my comments in this thread, you will see that I have a 3 year history of daily phenibut use and it is not a major issue for me, other than the fact that I have to take it in order to avoid withdrawals. But I successfully reduced my daily use to half of what it once was, so I feel comfortable that I could also stop taking it entirely if I tapered slowly and got some help from temporary use of a benzo-type medication.

 

Your precautions are good for most people, but don't dismiss the possibility that some people are able to take benzos, phenibut, or similar drugs for long periods without serious consequences. Although I am beginning to suspect that phenibut may be worse than benzos because of dopamine withdrawal syndrome. Phenibut probably down-regulates certain dopamine receptors, and if this is the case then DAWS would be added to the GABA withdrawal effects, making it even worse than benzo withdrawal. Yuck.

[motorcycle52]

Great post. I have a similar story. Phenibut at 1500mg seems to be the only med that helps.
Good to hear some good news.

[Ran]

Great post, thanks to the original poster for sharing his experience.

 

Now, my question is: is there any exit strategy for a daily over one year Phenibut use? I obviously understand that it may be undesirable to quit, however just in the case there there will be a need to quit, it is better to have an exit strategy in place.

 

And, is there anything that can be used to bring back Phenibut's magic after a long term use?

 

 

[Junk Master]

Actually and interesting thread.  Thanks to all the contributors.

 

But all I have to add is, "Why if you cannot secure a consistent phenibut supply?"  I can guarantee that you will experience rather severe physical withdrawal symptoms.

[Ran]

According to my research there are substances that can be used to address both withdrawals and tolerance issues. The information below is provided to you and all readers of this thread on apprecionware basis. Ie, if the information significantly benefited your life please pm and send a money gift that will equal to your appreciation.

Fascoracetam completely stops withdrawals, you are welcome to test it and post results on this thread.

Kavakava decreases tolerance and allows for lesser dose of phenibut produce the same effects. Ie, if normally you take 1.5gr of Phenibut, you may get same effects from 300mg phenibut + 500mg kava.

Gabapentine 800mg is good to avoid dopamine rebound.


My current regime:
Preloading with some sublingual NATL at 6:40am.
Phenibut hcl 2gr at 7am
Noopept or Piracetam at 8am oral and sublingual
Anhydrous caffeine 50-100mg
Ilex guayusa sublingual and oral
2 drops iboga TA extract 1:50 tincture
Huperzine 50mg oral and 20mg sublingual
At 9.40am 50mg of Phenibut FAA insufflated
Drink 500ml of Oishi - green tea
7-9pm 50-100mg of tramadol to make an extension to the trip

Note:if you do not have ibogaine, phenibut faa, Huperzine, Ilex - that's ok. Even without it you are highly likely to feel the magic.

[medievil]

Ive been taking 4 grams for about 6 years or so for stimulant anxiety succesfully, withdrawal is no issue as a week of diazepam gets rhid of it symption free

[medievil]

Where do you order the iboga tincture from?

[Ran]

No withdrawals from one week on diazepam? What dosage you took and after how many days on Phenibut?
I got the TA tincture at Maya-ethnobotanicals.com

[Junk Master]

I'm curious how Fascoracetam could completely stop withdrawals when it should make them worse at first as a Gaba antagonist.

[Ran]

Numerous people wrote about it, I haven't tried it myself yet. What in your opinion will stop withdrawals and prevent / reduce tolerance?

[deeptrance]

Numerous people wrote about it, I haven't tried it myself yet. What in your opinion will stop withdrawals and prevent / reduce tolerance?

 

Aside from fasoracetam, all your other suggestions make sense. Maybe fasoracetam is helpful for some people, but I gave that stuff away after I bought it and tried it a few times, because it basically feels just like phenibut withdrawal to me! It made me extremely agitated, anxious, and buzzed in a really negative way. But I also hate phenylpiracetam, so I'm obviously much more sensitive to glutamate-type stimulants. 

 

I wonder what the pharmacological basis is for fasoracetam as a way to kick phenibut? It just makes no sense to me, but maybe it's totally valid and I'd love to learn more about this, not that I'd try it myself.

 

My phenibut update -- I've now been taking it every day for 4 years. I went up as high as 2.5-3 grams a day a couple years ago, but slowly tapered down to where I'm taking less than a gram per day now. I made hundreds of capsules of 350 mg phenibut and 350 mg taurine, and I usually take one of those a day, plus I'll have a little bit of extra phenibut that I've blended in with more exotic substances. My liver and kidneys are fine, heart is fine, but can't say much for my brain. After a few concussions and a lot of substance abuse, it's amazing that I'm capable of typing coherent sentences in a web forum. The point is, I can't blame phenibut for brain problems when there are many other more-likely suspects.

 

I'd just like a to add a few more items to the list of substances that can be used for phenibut withdrawal:

clonidine (I'd consider this my first line of defense against over-stimulation)

etizolam (this one risks a new form of dependency though)

hyroxyzine

valerian

and to reiterate what has already been said:

gabapentin

kava

[Ran]

But I also hate phenylpiracetam, so I'm obviously much more sensitive to glutamate-type stimulants. 

 

My phenibut update -- I've now been taking it every day for 4 years. I went up as high as 2.5-3 grams a day a couple years ago, but slowly tapered down to where I'm taking less than a gram per day now. I made hundreds of capsules of 350 mg phenibut and 350 mg taurine,

 

I have taken a small dose of phenylpiracetam a long time ago. Didn't feel nice and it "killed" the effects of Noopept for some reason. Before I would get a lot of positive effects from it, but after phenylpiracetam it would basically do nothing. Have you tried Noopept?

 

How does taurine adds to the effects of Phenibut?

[deeptrance]

I've been taking noopept every day for 3+ years. Not sure why, just a habit I guess. It's incredibly cheap, that's part of it. I don't even measure it, so my best guess is that I take between 10 and 50 mg per day. 

 

Taurine's benefits seem complementary to phenibut, so I thought it would be a good filler for the capsules. I take about 3 grams of taurine a day anyway, so mainly it was filler because I use size 00 capsules and I only wanted them to be half-full of phenibut in order to get my dosage lower.

Taurine should have some synergy with phenibut, based on its modulation of GABA-a and GABA-b receptors. For more on taurine, see https://examine.com/supplements/taurine/ 

 

[Ran]

Taurine's benefits seem complementary to phenibut, so I thought it would be a good filler for the capsules. I take about 3 grams of taurine a day anyway, so mainly it was filler because I use size 00 capsules and I only wanted them to be half-full of phenibut in order to get my dosage lower.

Taurine should have some synergy with phenibut, based on its modulation of GABA-a and GABA-b receptors. For more on taurine, see https://examine.com/supplements/taurine/ 

 

I would be interested in your particular experience. What differences would you see between taking comparative doses of phenibut with and without taurine?

 

And, what effects do you get from taurine 3g daily dose? (Without phenibut)

[deeptrance]

I don't notice effects from anything unless they're pretty dramatic. So, for example, I never notice effects of any amino acid, ever, unless I take enough to get indigestion. And the only effects I've noticed from phenibut have been when I've taken 2 grams or more at one time, where the main effect for me is that it makes me wish I hadn't taken so much. I get foggy-headed and tired. I definitely notice phenibut withdrawal, so I avoid it.

 

I'm pretty useless for information about supplement effects because I almost never notice them unless they're negative! I think most of what people report about the benefits of supplements is just the placebo effect. If I only took supplements that I can feel then I probably wouldn't take anything at all, and that would save me a lot of money. Hmm.... something to think about, as I await yet another order from Powder City.

[medievil]

etizolam doesnt work much for phenibut withdrawal, only clonazepam and diazepam fully supress it