23 replies to this topic

[drg]

I recently switched between 2mg clonazepam and 1mg alprazolam. I am getting less sleepless nights but I have been feeling like particular shit. In the morning and at night too. If I experienced withdraw I was mostly expecting it in the evening because of the shorter half life. But could I be having withdrawal simply from switching types of Benzo?

My doctor says to me addiction / tolerance risk is over blown. I don't really believe him but Benzo are my only option for sleep. And I want to see if the shorter acting Benzo makes me feel better / more awake.

[nowayout]

Clonazepam taken at night stays in your system throughout the next day, so you are never without a significant amount of the drug in your system. 

 

Alprazolam taken at night is pretty much out of your system by morning, so all of a sudden your days are benzo-free for the first time.  If you had been on clonazepam for a while, this explains the withdrawal symptoms during the day. 

 

For this reason I think alprazolam is much less harmful than clonazepam.  Alprazolam taken for sleep allows your body a bit of a benzo-holiday during daytime, so your brain can reset a little and the risk of tolerance is probably lower. 

[drg]

Hopefully alprazolam is better longterm.

I still feel shit, though. Even though I am getting more sleep. I feel more tired. Angry as hell in the morning. Hopefully withdrawal. God damn

[resveratrol_guy]

I wouldn't be taking any benzos longterm. There are superior and safer alternatives. IMO these should be considered as emergency drugs for severe psychiatric events, not chronic interventions.

 

http://www.health.ha...se-201409107397

 

[drg]

Well my experience with insomnia is there are no more effective medications with lower side effects than Benzos.

I don't disagree that they should be avoided but not sleeping is not an option.

Trazadone - no evidence it works longterm and not strong enough

Seroquel - strong cognitive side effects and low doses don't work.

Lyrica - strong cognitive side effects and depression.

Non-benzos / z-drugs - don't get me to sleep, I don't believe they are safer just less abuse able . Strange amnesia like side effects.

Herbal supplements - none are strong enough but I use this Valerian / roseroot (or something) thing that helps a bit. Melatonin is useless.

Pot/clonidine don't work

Not really seeing my options. But maybe if you're insomnia is not that bad there are better options than Benzos.

If you want to add to the list that would be great.

Edited by drg, 04 June 2015 - 04:02 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

I've found that carbon 60 olive oil helps me sleep better. I'm not the only one to observe this, although I have no clue as to why. If you have not yet done so, I would recommend contacting a doctor specializing in sleep medicine, and getting a sleep study. Sleep disorders are generally much more treatable than the Alzheimer's that might develop as a result of excessive benzo use. There are CPAP, BiPAPs, nerve stimulators (e.g. Inspire, Apnex Medical, etc.), and jaw surgery options.

[Junk Master]

I'd be very curious in better alternatives as well.  Though I've never tried Clonidine, I've tried pretty much everything else I can think of and use a CPAP.

 

Currently, I find Ibutamoren, as well as Melatonin, help the quality of my sleep-- but I am unable to consistently wear my CPAP and head strap because of allergy issues, UNLESS I take 1 mg of Clonazepam.

 

BTW  Does anyone have any experience with oral appliances for sleep apnea, or are they all sort of scams?

[resveratrol_guy]

I think the world's best oral appliance is Aveo TSD, out of New Zealand. There's at least one published study showing results almost as impressive as maxilomandibular advancement surgery. But if I had bad apnea, I'd be looking more at nerve stimulators, although they are expensive if insurance won't cover them.

[drg]

Actually I was prescribed clonazepam by a sleep doctor. The "best" one in Toronto. Too much trouble to get down there though and I doubt they can suggest anything I haven't tried. Probably won't return.

I'll look into the c60 oil.

Guanfacine was suggested for sleep by another doctor but it is similar to clonidine . Would probably be the better choice over clonidine because less side effects.

[nowayout]

Well my experience with insomnia is there are no more effective medications with lower side effects than Benzos.

I don't disagree that they should be avoided but not sleeping is not an option.

Trazadone - no evidence it works longterm and not strong enough

Seroquel - strong cognitive side effects and low doses don't work.

Lyrica - strong cognitive side effects and depression.

Non-benzos / z-drugs - don't get me to sleep, I don't believe they are safer just less abuse able . Strange amnesia like side effects.

Herbal supplements - none are strong enough but I use this Valerian / roseroot (or something) thing that helps a bit. Melatonin is useless.

Pot/clonidine don't work

Not really seeing my options. But maybe if you're insomnia is not that bad there are better options than Benzos.

If you want to add to the list that would be great.

 

I agree.  I am currently on alprazolam (xanax) and it has worked well without much tolerance for a number of months.

 

IMO short-acting benzos are pretty good compared to the alternatives.  They are the only class of drugs that effectively give me a natural-feeling restorative sleep, with no side effects.  For the first time in my adult life, I can fall asleep quickly and sleep through the night with maybe one awakening instead of 10 awakenings adding up to hours of wakefulness. 

 

Trazodone works for me only one night, maybe two, then no more, the dry mouth is horrible and probably damaging to teeth/gums in the long term, sleep is full of nightmares and thus restless, and the sleep erections I get from it are painful and difficult to get rid of.   As for you, Z-drugs don't work for me and/or have weird side effects (e.g., the permanent  metallic taste in your mouth from lunesta).  Seroquel gave me absolutely nightmarish side effects.

 

I do find benadryl (diphenhydramine) a useful adjunct to the alprazolam - I use it as an aid to periodically wean myself to a lower dose of alprazolam, just to try to minimize any possible dependence issues.  I also think it helps with sleep maintenance even when on the full alprazolam dose, in addition to reducing breathing issues and snoring from allergies I have.  It is also short-acting and I have no side effects from it, and strangely I don't seem to get tolerant to it either (I quickly do to other antihistamines). 
 

Edited by nowayout, 04 June 2015 - 10:32 PM.

[drg]

Herbal supplements - none are strong enough but I use this Valerian / roseroot (or something) thing that helps a bit. Melatonin is useless.

Yea I checked what was in this herbal sleep aid I take called "Swiss Natural Solutions: Sleep". There is Valerian, hops, passionflower and lemon balm. Don't know what I was thinking, roseroot Wtf?!

 

I don't know what ingredient is actually helping with sleep but it seems to work somewhat.

 

---

 

Where are you getting Ibutamoren from Junk Master??

[Heisenburger]

Well my experience with insomnia is there are no more effective medications with lower side effects than Benzos.

 

Etizolam, etizolam, etizolam. I will never stop beating the etizolam drum—wonderful stuff. It’s every bit as good as Xanax or Valium, and as I always like to put it, it’s only one-third as addictive as benzos are, in that it takes about three times as long to get addicted, the withdrawal is only about one-third as bad, and it only lasts about one-third as long. Alprazolam is the spawn of Satan. When I quit Xanax I was completely miserable for three weeks. And I didn’t even have that serious of a problem with it. When I tabulated all my purchase records, it worked out that I had taken an average of 0.9 milligrams a day for 17 months. It was a nightmare. I had to fight as hard as I possibly could to concentrate on what I was doing when I was doing the laundry. I didn’t get rid of my guns, but I had to throw all my ammo away because I was having “those kinds” of thoughts. (Mercifully, that subsided after only three days.) Withdrawal from etizolam is nothing compared to benzo withdrawal. You can take two milligrams every day for a year and just shrug off the worst of the withdrawal in less than a week. The half-life is almost perfect for use as a sleep aid. Try not to get addicted, though. If you go three weeks on, one week off, three weeks on, one week off, and so forth, you probably won’t run into any serious issues. It’s been demonstrated to cause blepharospasms with long-term use, but this side effect is uncommon, and for some as yet unknown reason is ten times more prevalent in women than in men. I can’t recommend it highly enough. I haven’t taken a single benzo in over a year and a half now, and I don’t miss it one bit. The eti has been a perfectly acceptable substitute, and is inexpensive and readily obtainable.

[drg]

I think etizolam is a research chemical AND and a benzodiazepine.  I can understand the appeal because it is like 500 doses for 60$USD, anyways..... the half life is probably too short to get you through a full nights sleep. Unless initiating sleep is your issue.

I swear the sleep I am getting is different from switching between clonazepam and alprazolam, in a bad way. I feel less rejuvenated in the morning, despite sleeping deeper/ or more. I figure it must be this god damn benzo withdrawal and I am not even going off benzo completely just switching poisons. Idk it is scary how badly stopping clonazepam can be after being taking 2mg a night for 6 months and intermittently. I feel really depressed and it must be switching clonazepam and alprazolam, I thought I wouldn;t experience withdrawal. 

 

I guess the moral of the story is: avoid benzos at all cost their withdrawal is terrible and persistent more than any drug I have taken. Never even considered I might be dependent on them until the moment I tried to stop. 

[AlexCanada]

Is there a good source for etizolam? I really need something to help make this very long protracted valium withdrawal more manageable. Taking valium doesn't even help much of the time either as I get some rebound anxiety few hours later but if I drop it lower I end up paying for it severely with dysphoria, anxiety, anhedonia etc. 

 

Something to add onto the valium and thus allow me to reduce the valium a bit would be helpful.  

Edited by AlexCanada, 12 June 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[Heisenburger]

Up until just a few months ago, you could simply buy it from domestic noots vendors. But the FDA took umbrage at that and put a stop to it. Now you have to get it from an offshore supplier. The ironic thing is that some of these offshore rigs are cheaper and supply a better product than their domestic counterparts did. I’d rather not say anybody’s name out loud, because I’ve heard unsubstantiated rumors that the Airmail Chemist group was driven out of business because too many people were talking about them on the Internets. May be true, may not be true—I don’t know. But I don’t want to run the risk of poisoning my own well. I’ll happily respond to PMs though.

[nowayout]

I swear the sleep I am getting is different from switching between clonazepam and alprazolam, in a bad way. I feel less rejuvenated in the morning, despite sleeping deeper/ or more.

 

When switching from ativan (longer half life) to xanax (shorter half life) I definitely noticed more of a groggy/hangover feeling from the xanax in the mornings.  I don't know if this was intrinsic to xanax or withdrawal from ativan.  That grogginess eventually went away, in my case within two weeks. 

 

I developed some tolerance to the xanax at the start and had to increase dosage but have now been more or less stabilized at 1 mg for about a year with no daytime side effects.  I'll periodically reduce my dose when I have time away from the person I'm dating so I don't have to worry about keeping him awake all night in case I toss and turn.  Tolerance to xanax did not develop nearly as quickly as to ativan, which every few days needed to be increased and within a month or two ativan didn't help at all for sleep even beyond maximum prescribed doses, while giving me side effects during the day.

Edited by nowayout, 12 June 2015 - 06:08 PM.

[drg]

Is there a good source for etizolam? I really need something to help make this very long protracted valium withdrawal more manageable. Taking valium doesn't even help much of the time either as I get some rebound anxiety few hours later but if I drop it lower I end up paying for it severely with dysphoria, anxiety, anhedonia etc. 

 

Something to add onto the valium and thus allow me to reduce the valium a bit would be helpful.  

You would be better off just VERY slowly decreasing the valium. Adding on another benzo is very counter productive to reducing the dose because benzos have additive effects plus the potency of etizolam compared to other benzo is very high and you will have trouble measuring <1mg doses.

 

Yeah I just really advise against that method if your goal is reducing your dose. Valium is actually recommended benzo to be on while decreasing/getting off benzos because it has a relatively low potency and higher dose (0.5mg xanax is equivalent to 5mg of valium). Thus you will have a greater ability to slowly reduce the dose.

[drg]

When switching from ativan (longer half life) to xanax (shorter half life) I definitely noticed more of a groggy/hangover feeling from the xanax in the mornings.  I don't know if this was intrinsic to xanax or withdrawal from ativan.  That grogginess eventually went away, in my case within two weeks. 

 

I developed some tolerance to the xanax at the start and had to increase dosage but have now been more or less stabilized at 1 mg for about a year with no daytime side effects.  I'll periodically reduce my dose when I have time away from the person I'm dating so I don't have to worry about keeping him awake all night in case I toss and turn.  Tolerance to xanax did not develop nearly as quickly as to ativan, which every few days needed to be increased and within a month or two ativan didn't help at all for sleep even beyond maximum prescribed doses, while giving me side effects during the day.

 

I am still just generally exhausted all day long. I went from 2-3mg clonazepam each night to 1mg (sometimes 2mg) a night. Which by reading the charts clonazepam and xanax have equal 1:1 relative potency. So in effect I have just decreased my benzo dose in half which seems all around a good thing. Also xanax has ALWAYS been able to get me to sleep sometimes clonazepam didn't get me to sleep even if I took a bit extra.

 

My sleep is much deeper and just different in an indescribable way. I wake up in a miserable mood and fatigued throughout the day. So I still do not know why that is... it has been a couple weeks and withdrawal seems less likely. Although some people are more sensitive to benzo withdrawal than others.

 

Anyways it, needs to stop really soon because I need to feel less fatigued because I am getting nothing done. I may have to add like 0.25-0.5mg clonazepam and start a slow taper or something.

 

Also... kill me. x_x. 

[AlexCanada]

 

Is there a good source for etizolam? I really need something to help make this very long protracted valium withdrawal more manageable. Taking valium doesn't even help much of the time either as I get some rebound anxiety few hours later but if I drop it lower I end up paying for it severely with dysphoria, anxiety, anhedonia etc. 

 

Something to add onto the valium and thus allow me to reduce the valium a bit would be helpful.  

You would be better off just VERY slowly decreasing the valium. Adding on another benzo is very counter productive to reducing the dose because benzos have additive effects plus the potency of etizolam compared to other benzo is very high and you will have trouble measuring <1mg doses.

 

Yeah I just really advise against that method if your goal is reducing your dose. Valium is actually recommended benzo to be on while decreasing/getting off benzos because it has a relatively low potency and higher dose (0.5mg xanax is equivalent to 5mg of valium). Thus you will have a greater ability to slowly reduce the dose.

 

 

 

I wish it were that simple. Ever since rTMS the valium seems to just effect me a bit differently unless something else is going on. It doesn't even help for sleep usually. And regardless of time of day of dosage I always wake up with the most intense hangovers. Usually the longer I sleep the worse it is and it feels like I have some kind of hangover all day every day virtually all the time. Part of this is likely from fungal/candida infection but it's relentless. Gabapentin I know compounds it though.  Whatever function the valium is meant to serve at this point seems moot. But withdrawal gets intense with even the most minor tapers. I have been trying to quit valium for years. 5+ mg down to 1mg now. And unless other factors are in play such as poor adrenals I am struggling a lot with it. One and a half years ago I had what appeared to be an adrenal crisis and it may have been due to me tapering to 0.7mg too quickly from 1.5 over span of 2 months and stopping pregnenolone too abruptly. It was the most torturous hell on earth. I honestly thought I was possibly going to die, felt like my whole body was shutting down.  And honestly I have been feeling that at night certain days this week but to a smaller extent. Similar symptoms which remind me of those horrid days year and a half ago. I was having trouble even just laying in bed without profound pains on whichever side I layed on. Inflammation in my back is strong consistently. Palpatations and adrenaline rest sensations may be subsiding hopefully.

 

The taper now isn't going well at all and that's why I want some valium alternative because I am in a hangover virtually all the time likely at least partially due to the long half life. Something else could maybe help me for sleep because Valium doesn't. Etizolam I heard some have good success with. But for all I know maybe this is the best case scenario, yet I cannot be sure unless I try something different.  The etizolam I heard was not a true benzo and only had 1/3rd the sensitivity and thus the potential for withdrawal success. 

 

Sometimes I consider raising it up again because I don't know if I can get anything out of this summer unless something changes.  Tough situation. Maybe when I raise my cortisol levels I can recover much more successfully.  Pregnenolone really helped ease anxiety but I do not have access to transdermal form and oral just makes things worse in the long run. 

Edited by AlexCanada, 12 June 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[Heisenburger]

I would tend to agree with drg—a better endgame plan would be to get the benzos out of your existence entirely, rather than think about substituting one for another. I had all the Xanax completely washed out of my system for a couple of months before I started dabbling with etizolam. I watch the stuff carefully, too. I only take one milligram a day, and I abstain on the weekends to avoid tolerance and dose escalation issues. The one milligram is sufficient to give a good night of uninterrupted sleep. Two milligrams will likely have a pronounced amnesic effect and tend to make you somewhat physically lethargic the following day.

[drg]

 

The taper now isn't going well at all and that's why I want some valium alternative because I am in a hangover virtually all the time likely at least partially due to the long half life. Something else could maybe help me for sleep because Valium doesn't. Etizolam I heard some have good success with. But for all I know maybe this is the best case scenario, yet I cannot be sure unless I try something different.  The etizolam I heard was not a true benzo and only had 1/3rd the sensitivity and thus the potential for withdrawal success. 

 

I know what you mean benzo withdrawal is surprisingly rough, even after only being on them for a couple months.

First time I stopped clonazepam straight up... didn't sleep for 3 weeks straight, got a bit crazy and gave up. I only slept 50% of the time before clonazepam but I didn't sleep a single night for 3 weeks while stopping it. 

Now I am switching to xanax from clonazepam still running into issues although I am sleeping this time.

 

I don't really have ideas regarding your withdrawal but I still think switching benzo's isn't a great option. You are most of the way off valium already if you are taking 1mg a day.

 

What are the withdrawal symptoms you are experiencing because maybe you should just treat those symptoms of withdrawal directly when you decrease your dose?

[AlexCanada]

 

 

The taper now isn't going well at all and that's why I want some valium alternative because I am in a hangover virtually all the time likely at least partially due to the long half life. Something else could maybe help me for sleep because Valium doesn't. Etizolam I heard some have good success with. But for all I know maybe this is the best case scenario, yet I cannot be sure unless I try something different.  The etizolam I heard was not a true benzo and only had 1/3rd the sensitivity and thus the potential for withdrawal success. 

 

I know what you mean benzo withdrawal is surprisingly rough, even after only being on them for a couple months.

First time I stopped clonazepam straight up... didn't sleep for 3 weeks straight, got a bit crazy and gave up. I only slept 50% of the time before clonazepam but I didn't sleep a single night for 3 weeks while stopping it. 

Now I am switching to xanax from clonazepam still running into issues although I am sleeping this time.

 

I don't really have ideas regarding your withdrawal but I still think switching benzo's isn't a great option. You are most of the way off valium already if you are taking 1mg a day.

 

What are the withdrawal symptoms you are experiencing because maybe you should just treat those symptoms of withdrawal directly when you decrease your dose?

 

 

I have noticed I have less forgetfulness now. But it's so pronounced compared to just a month ago. And the only change in val is dropping from 1.2 to 1mg (though 3 months ago I was at 1.6). I am in a different state of mind entirely right now. From hypo to more hyper. Some of this I do not know if it's valium but very likely is because going this low has always been an issue. I feel like my adrenals are getting burned out on top of all this. I did also stop low dose pregnenolone a few weeks ago. It made me more calm, stripped away lot of anxiety, made me relax, but made me a bit apathetic. 

 

Now instead of feeling dreadfully unmotivated, apathetic, anhedonic,  lifeless, extremely tiring, and feel like my days are just passing me by...                           I feel more hyper, bit more motivated, on edge, body cold and clammy, instead of sleeping very comfortably insomnia is very common, pain in my back, adrenaline sensations when trying to rest in the evening at times, general dysphoria, bit more desire to initiate things or at least ''desire'' to but still very very poor enjoment/pleasure, lot of brain fog but slightly improved, shakiness, hypoglycemia, Lot of weight loss (132 dropped to 120 over few months), sensitivity to sound, teeth and gums weaker (but subsiding), low hormone levels, facial complexion def bit yellow, ghoulish dark circles around eyes, general anx worse, and I'm sure there's much more but it's getting too foggy right now. Took my evening dose of valium not long ago.

 

I will need to try and find herbal alternatives. Hopefully something laying around that I already have. I just don't know which substances that work on gaba make it easier to harder long term. I know thianine 2 years ago helped anxiety a bit but made me so dull and tired, and when I got off that the benzo withdrawal was intensified. thianine was a huge mistake on my part. 

 

Maybe to salvage this summer I will need to raise back up to 1.2mg and then try dropping again during fall. I'll see. I hope not. 

Edited by AlexCanada, 13 June 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Duchykins]

Combine in moderate doses:

 

Magnesium and potassium

GABA (yes it does have an effect better than placebo especially on people unhealthy like us)

B vitamins (find a complex with only active Bs like the one Swanson's manufactures)

Taurine

Lysine

Kefir (or some other significant source of broad-spectrum probiotics)

 

You need to do something about your GABA crash right now.  One of the reasons benzos have the notorious long-term or even semi-permanent withdrawal "side effects" is because GABA is a major inhibitory neurotransmitter and without it your major excitatory neurotransmitters like glutamate are running largely unchecked which can damage neural cells.  This is why it's so important to taper off and avoid any withdrawal symptoms.  A good example of this is your hearing sensitivity: your auditory nerves are overstimulated and are being damaged right now.  Tinnitus is a well-known withdrawal symptom and is known to be one of the longest lasting symptoms, for years or even longer depending on how badly the nerves were damaged (proportionate to the level of benzo use).  

 

The stuff I listed does work with your body to help spur its own GABA synthesis and enhance what little it has right now.  Kefir, especially, is sorcery when I actually remember to drink it, and usually remember it best when I have mild withdrawal from school weekday use of lorazepam.   All the other stuff I take daily as part of my routine migraine prophylaxis stack to keep steady enough GABA levels to help prevent extracellular glutamate building up.

 

I also use herbal teas, these are my favorites

 

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B00E5CPB1C

http://www.amazon.co...k/dp/B000CMIYWM

http://www.amazon.co..._bxgy_325_img_z

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B0030EGQ7E

 

 

I suppose you could try kava but I personally tried Yogi's Kava blend but didn't like how sedating it was, I hate being sedated, my mind is always "on" and is what feels normal to me, which is why I resisted all my doctors' attempts to put me on benzos for years (up until I went back to school and eventually conceded that I had to take something as long as it didn't compromise my cognition, and settled on ativan which is actually quite perfect for class and studying, aside from its being a devilish benzo of course).

 

With the teas, beware the brands you buy.  I'd advise steering clear of the big brands no matter how tempting the tea blend; Tazo, Teavana, Bigelow, Twinings (we loved their English Breakfast blend), Celestial Seasonings, Lipton, Trader Joe's.  All have been busted for being chock full of pesticides, having harmful packaging (like the fancy plastic sachets and mesh bags), suspicious and unlisted "natural flavor" additives that aren't really all that natural or healthy for you (as long as the original source is "natural," any ingredient isolated from in the chemistry lab can be called a "natural flavor" but the source could be oil, or a rock, or whatever and no they don't have to tell you what they are).  Steer clear of the Starbucks-associated teas especially, my husband works for Starbucks and he learned that even though the head honchos at Starbucks know about the bullshit in their overpriced "natural" teas, they haven't bothered to change anything and encourage employees to lie to customers that inquire on the subject.

 

Just make sure whatever tea you choose, if any, is organic and isn't a blend with any of the green, black or white teas since the caffeine in them would defeat your purpose.

Edited by Duchykins, 13 June 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[nowayout]

Morning hangovers might be related to breathing problems while asleep, perhaps exacerbated by a particular drug.  Another possibility is dehydration - I know I lose a handful of pounds of water overnight.