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Re-creating people after they are stored as a data. Digital recreation but not mind downloading.

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#1 Docon

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:23 AM


Hello,
 
There are standard concepts on how to achieve digital immortality: https://en.wikipedia...tal_immortality. But all of them requires mind uploading or they focus on archiving data from internet.
 
What do you think about archiving now more data, not only these from internet but also real life samples? And in the future we just fill in missing data using similar way that we use now in creation of models for artificial intelligence. Most important is that we can secure test dataset (real life recording) agains which we can test if model we recreate is perfect.
 
Future - I mean moment when technological singularity arrives. 1000 or 10000 years, I do not know.
 
I'm not such optimist as these people who expect mind uploading possible in 2045 so I search for other options.
 
Movies explaining idea are here: 
 
 


#2 Cloned

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 10:19 AM

Your idea is 50% correct.

Yes, we need an information backup, because our biological bodies will never truly be immortal. The only question is what information should be collected, how to store it and how to use it.

Where are you mistaken? 
Digital recreation is a wishfull thinking.  The maximum we can create is digital zombies with no free will.

Fortunately, the solution is almost here - human cloning. To achieve true immortality we need:

1. Informational backup.
2. Stem cell backup.
3. A reliable cloning technology.
4. The appropriate legal framework.

 


Edited by Cloned, 23 July 2018 - 10:22 AM.

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#3 Docon

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 06:54 PM

 To achieve true immortality we need:

1. Informational backup.
2. Stem cell backup.
3. A reliable cloning technology.
 

Right. And all these information will be collected in centers: 

 

And then we wait for technologies.



#4 Cloned

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 08:09 PM

Well, I watched your video (3) and generally agree with you. We need backup. But it looks like you are just starting, which means that many problems are missed. 

This concept has been in existence for at least 5 years. I talked a lot about it in the Kurzweil forum (now closed) and the main problem is ... guess what? 

A credibility.

Who will manage this data center? On what principles?

 



#5 Docon

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 09:07 AM

This concept has been in existence for at least 5 years. I talked a lot about it in the Kurzweil forum (now closed) and the main problem is ... guess what? 

A credibility.

Who will manage this data center? On what principles?

 

My guess is that such small centers exists already but for rich only. Idea is so obvious that seems hard to believe that guys with billions will not try.

 

From the other hand, nobody markets such services for general audience because it sounds like scam or dream of some idiot.

 

As for credibility - good news is that money for this can not came from bad guys. And we can not hire efficient CEO with long business experience or offer stocks.

 

Big problem is how concept of  protecting data and executing our will, is going to work in practice. How to secure organisation by 1000 years? It have to be super smart solution.  And we can not discuss the model in public, if we want to give it a chance to be effective. From the other hand it is not task for one individual.



#6 Cloned

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 12:00 PM

Big problem is how concept of  protecting data and executing our will, is going to work in practice. How to secure organisation by 1000 years? 

 

It's an 800-pound gorilla problem.

Stored data will be extremely valuable, so it can be stolen or compromised. I have two possible solutions:

1. To use a blockchain

2. To create a non-profit organization like religious cults, where money or profit is not the ultimate goal.

 

 

And we can not discuss the model in public

 

I disagree with this one. We need to involve as many people as possible so that this plan becomes a reality, unless you are a millionaire and you can fund everything.
 


Edited by Cloned, 24 July 2018 - 12:01 PM.

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#7 Docon

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 05:06 AM

And 3rd, old school, option is strong bunkers with heavy armed guards. Without radio/cable connection to outside world. 

In reality security will be mix of available options with up to date cryptography solutions.

 

We can discuss options but for security reasons I do not think that the project should be transparent.We will work with something that is much more valuable than money. So we need to be better protected than banks.

 

Plan is to gather some money for initial marketing, make team and find people who could be interested in project and supporting it.

 

Where are you from?



#8 Cloned

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:42 AM

strong bunkers with heavy armed guards

 

Does not sound realistic.
There's nothing to guard in a first place. Moreover, people usually don't care about their data security and they don't believe in immortality either.

 

So the first step should be a website with a proper explanation what actions a person must take at the very beginning, what kind of information is important and then a questionnaire for filling and sorting data.

 

How many people in this forum will be interested to participate?

 



#9 Docon

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 02:48 PM

Ok but I stick with idea of a few bunkers worldwide and copies of data/cells. I do not want to be forced someday to say 'sorry, we had system breach and your data is available for download at wikileaks' ;-)
But it is not mayor concer now.
 
Let's find some people interested in the topic.


#10 Cloned

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 11:00 AM

Let's find some people interested in the topic.

 

I'm afraid there are no such people. To interest them a little, you need to promise something very simple, that anyone can understand.

True immortality for only $ 10.

Something like this.

 

Most importantly, this is not a lie. Information can be stored for the price as low as $ 10 per year.

And the start must be to ask the right questions, not to build a bunkers  :) .
I can provide the first one:
 

 1. What is your very first memory? 


Edited by Cloned, 26 July 2018 - 11:01 AM.

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#11 Docon

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 11:20 AM

Almost agree :-)

 

I have hundreads personal questions on list + thousend others. I've planned to offer this as basic service for these who can not longer wait.
But I can not promiss very good quality of copy with that. That why we need centers with more sophisticated techniques.
 
Now I'm in hurry, will discuss weekend.
 


#12 Cloned

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 12:00 PM

I have hundreads personal questions on list

 

Our prime task is to sort out these questions. Questions should refer the basis for identification of a personality and the life patterns..
For example: 
You can compare your very first memories or vital decisions. The idea is to use your previous life experience to improve your current and the next lives.

 

Imagine how exciting and useful this information will be. And expensive too.



#13 Docon

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 05:27 PM

Memories are outcome of recalculating signals/structures that were created in the past. Recalculations are influenced by a lot of factors. So your memories about, for example, 9/11 are diffferent today and different next week.

Would be helpful but as a part of huge dataset of your memories and other data.

So I wouldnt't focus on that much. We need them but not in a form of detailed psychoanalisis.  



#14 Cloned

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 07:19 PM

We need them but not in a form of detailed psychoanalisis.  

 

I started a new topic with more detail on what information I have in mind. It is rather a decision-making points and not a detailed psychoanalysis. I'm not really interested why, I'm interested in facts.
If someone decided to study engineering instead of being a rock star - that's a life changing decision.
In the next life he/she can choose differently. That's the power of knowledge.


#15 Docon

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 10:18 PM

For me it seems that we have similar idea in mind.

we are " ready to start backing up your personality and live forever"

details to discuss



#16 YOLF

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 02:04 AM

I don't think this is valid way to immortality. It would be nice if my dead relatives were still around as copies to ask questions, especially health questions they might be able to remember such as was uncle so and so allergic to this or did they exhibit this behavior? But it just wouldn't be them and I imagine that if someone were to take my forum and facebook posts, they would vastly underestimate me and totally misrepresent my character. Think about all the times someone didn't get you and you didn't care or just became the person that they could learn something from. Think about all the people who you thought had misunderstandings and you took it upon your personality to plant a seed to help them understand. Think about all the times you answered something as an activist for someone else or some other cause which you might not have personally cared for or all the silly things you said just to keep a conversation going or all the difficulty you avoided with lite (I didn't misspell that) friends because you just weren't going to start an argument. I could go on with all the different ways that I would expect to be misunderstood. Would you be that person for future generations or would having their respect and a position of 'elder' change the dynamic? Would you just have the personality and none of the serious information? Could someone replicate the complexity of my understanding of things and all the advice that I could give? My copy would wind up giving someone else's advice or look like a fool.

 

Quite frankly, I imagine a digital version of myself would be nothing more than a farce, or whatever someone else, or some algorithm believed that I was that I might even find insulting. I just could never go for something like this. Would you say that you knew Donald Trump the way Ivanka does b/c you saw this?

 

Skip to the good part:

https://youtu.be/RbM2F-cfN0A?t=8s

 

 

How do you portray yourself?

 

The copy of Donald Trump would tell us that China, not he made America Great Again and that he was a ruling member of the Qing dynasty who built great walls! He might also be assumed by algorithm to be a fan of China women's national football team or perhaps their mascot. Perhaps a Chinese mascot... 

 
 

 


Edited by YOLF, 30 July 2018 - 02:14 AM.

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#17 Cloned

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 10:58 AM

For me it seems that we have similar idea in mind.

we are " ready to start backing up your personality and live forever"

details to discuss

 

Exactly. And we need more people to jointly develop an appropriate backup / restoration protocol.


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#18 Cloned

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 11:27 AM

It would be nice if my dead relatives were still around as copies to ask questions, especially health questions they might be able to remember 

 

Digital persons will be fake and biased. That's why we need a reliable data backup. Otherwise we'll be recreated as mindless slaves or google fanboys.


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#19 YOLF

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 05:11 PM

We'll be copied as biased corporate fanboys to whatever organization is performing the creation... It won't be the same as you no matter how hard we try. Personally, I don't want them making copies of me... That should be considered libel or slander depending on how it gets executed.



#20 Kalliste

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 05:13 PM

I find this idea completely retarded. We are going to be brought back if our brains gets plastinated properly at time of death.

 

If somebody find a way to peer back in time without modifying the past it might be possible to scale that tech until you could record the entire neural state at the time of death and bring that person back.



#21 YOLF

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 05:38 PM

I wouldn't assume that plastination is the be all end all of brain preservation and creating copies of people... I don't think there is much benefit to doing so either aside from perhaps the final testament aspect. It's still only good where other efforts to rejuvenate you or keep you around longer fail or aren't available. 

 

Another consideration is whether or not a digital copy would continue to evolve as a person the way you did or would... Everything you eat affects you and the chaos of chemistry that it is made of is also an effector... will a copy who is not subject to the natural world environment be anything like you? Or will it be a machine? What will drive the natural variability of our identity? Will my copy take an ever evolving supplement and dietary regimen? Will the company who is creating our copies endeavor to reproduce that at the same level of complexity? Can I be counted on to document enough of my operating methodology when so much of it is based on intuition that is better left invisible to me? If I have to slow myself down and literally process everything that comes down to intuition's effect on identity, will I actually be able to do it any justice? I've tried, it's not worth bothering and it simply can't be done. I could never explain the complexity, it's always truncated, even given my best attempt, and those who have tried to understand me based on these methodologies have failed miserably. The results of this science are far too limited. It would take a lifetime to convey myself to anyone at any given moment. If something like this was to occur it would take an entire lifetime to discuss the validation of just one minute...



#22 Cloned

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:25 PM

We are going to be brought back if our brains gets plastinated properly at time of death.

 

You confuse biology with robotics. When switched off, biology is off, there is no way 'to peer back in time'.

 

YOLK, you have confused in rhetoric. Digital persons are nothing but fantasies. It's about backing up (data and cells).
We want to create a system that preserves our lives.


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#23 YOLF

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:28 PM

So it's about the ability to watch someone's life when they're dead? I can't imagine that this could happen without keeping a living copy of their brain... You'd simply have to keep the original around, I don't think a copy would ever do. Any deviation from that is like playing telephone... someone puts words in your mouth.


Edited by YOLF, 30 July 2018 - 07:31 PM.

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#24 Cloned

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:31 PM

No, it's about the ability to watch your previous lives and draw the necessary conclusions.



#25 YOLF

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:46 PM

Watch your previous lives? You mean being able to see who you were more clearly in wiser retrospect? I think I can already do that. We never really forget anything... it's like George Lucas might say, your focus determines your reality and visa versa. If my brain chemistry becomes disparate from my youthful brain chemistry, I won't generate the necessary metabolism in my brain to make certain memories pop out at me. Younger brain chemistry allows us to feel and see our past at an unprecedented level of detail right down to the very way that our heart was beating with only a small token of reminder. My most recent of such memories was reminded by smelling a cologne that I wore circa 5th or 6th grade after I had lost a bit of weight. The challenge is to condition and re-remember your memories through rumination and reflection, or reassociate them to a common state so that they're available to you no matter what you eat or how you're feeling. The other thing that helps is to live a fluid life and not trying never to lose those aspects of yourself which connect to those memories. Rather, just try to be everything all the time as impossible as that might actually be. Then try not to die or age.



#26 Cloned

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 09:27 AM

Watch your previous lives? You mean being able to see who you were more clearly in wiser retrospect? I think I can already do that. 

 

It's always staggering how people miss a point. You can only remember your current life. We are talking here about future lives, whatever technology is used to achieve the goal.
The data transfer (both cellular and the personal life experience) is the only key to Immortality. We are not talking about longevity here. Longevity is a short term goal. not a solution.

 


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#27 Kalliste

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 07:05 PM

It is impossible to travel back in time and change stuff.

 

It might be possible to peer back in time using exotic physics generated wormholes that do not alter the past at all.

For those of us who will likely age to death or face death by war or natural disaster this is a small hope.

 

 

https://www.goodread...t_of_Other_Days


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#28 Docon

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 02:39 PM

Digital persons will be fake and biased. That's why we need a reliable data backup. Otherwise we'll be recreated as mindless slaves or google fanboys.

Right, we do not discuss  here chatbots based on memories and AI, projects like Oben, Bina48, etc. They want to use technology which is now available,  to create some kind of fancy gadgets. 



#29 Docon

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 02:56 PM

 It would take a lifetime to convey myself to anyone at any given moment. If something like this was to occur it would take an entire lifetime to discuss the validation of just one minute...

 

100% Right in 2018. Before stone age people invent how to make a fire they also had problems with calculating most optimized trajectory to land on the Moon.

But as there is a little progress on Earth I believe that in 3018 we have a bit more of computing power. Enough to calculate exact human. Our job is to collect, save and protect the data used for future calculations and building models purposes. 



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#30 YOLF

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 03:42 AM

In that case, I think I'll opt out. If they want me, they'll have to get the real me.Thus, more of a reason to keep me around.



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