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doubts about testosterone vs estrogen in men

hormones advice

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#1 faxmulder

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 09:11 AM


Hi,

premise: I'm not an expert at all about hormones but one thing that I think I've understood is that generally an increase in testosterone --> increase in estrogen

By this reasoning, would it be correct to say that when supplementing anything that increase (or it is supposed to increase) testosterone it is thus required to supplement also an aromatasae inhibitor (such as grape seed extract, resveratrol, nettle root)?

 

Basically, I'm talking about natural supplements that could help in restoring normal testosterone levels: taurine, cordyceps, boron, ashwagandha, zinc, vit K2, magnesium, vit D.

When supplementing one of these, isn't there the risk of increasing also estrogen?

 

What's your take guys? Thanks!

 

 



#2 tracekira

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 08:19 PM

Forget about crap based supplements based on plants to increase testosterone . Only real testosterone injected increases testosterone level



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#3 John250

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 10:56 PM

The majority of over-the-counter supplements are not going to increase testosterone enough where estrogen will be a concern unless you are extremely sensitive to aromatizing. Even testosterone replacement therapy shouldn’t impact estrogen that much if you use the correct dosage in method. The goal is to get your levels in range but on the higher end of the range while still keeping estrogen under control and if needed an anti-estrogen at the lowest dose possible to control levels. Also the ratio of T to E is a factor. Lets say the range for Estradiol in men is <=39
And total testosterone is 250-1100

If your test is in the middle say 400-500 then estradiol being around low-mid20’s is fine. But if your closer to say 900-1100 the high 30’s is fine. You’ll actually get more negative side effects from estrogen being too low then too high. Including loss of libido, possible mental disorders, bone and joint issues, etc.
The majority of over-the-counter supplements are not going to increase testosterone enough where estrogen will be a concern unless you are extremely sensitive to aromatizing. Even testosterone replacement therapy shouldn’t impact estrogen that much if you use the correct dosage in method. The goal is to get your levels in range but on the higher end of the range while still keeping estrogen under control and if needed an anti-estrogen at the lowest dose possible to control levels. Also the ratio of T to E is a factor. Lets say the range for Estradiol in men is <=39
And total testosterone is 250-1100

If your test is in the middle say 400-500 then estradiol being around low-mid20’s is fine. But if your closer to say 900-1100 the high 30’s is fine. You’ll actually get more negative side effects from estrogen being too low then too high. Including loss of libido, possible mental disorders, bone and joint issues, etc.
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#4 GreenmachineX

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 05:16 PM

I think the concern for elevated e2 is way overblown. I know for me, with my total test at 500-600 and free T around 19-23, my e2 sensitive is still only 15-17! Plenty of guys on the other forums are seeing that they don’t need AIs either. I wish I could get my e2 higher actually, but if my test goes any higher, my hematocrit goes above 51 and my hemoglobin goes above 18. And DHEA causes my e2 to crash as well. I know, sounds insane, but I’ve done it to myself several times.

Edited by GreenmachineX, 21 February 2019 - 05:17 PM.


#5 John250

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 01:06 AM

I think the concern for elevated e2 is way overblown. I know for me, with my total test at 500-600 and free T around 19-23, my e2 sensitive is still only 15-17! Plenty of guys on the other forums are seeing that they don’t need AIs either. I wish I could get my e2 higher actually, but if my test goes any higher, my hematocrit goes above 51 and my hemoglobin goes above 18. And DHEA causes my e2 to crash as well. I know, sounds insane, but I’ve done it to myself several times.

What was the reference range on the free testosterone?

Also lots of new research on how secondary induced erythrocytosis(high hemo) from testosterone does not produce the same side effects as someone who had it from SleepApnea, COPD or high altitude elevations. Studies did bloodwork from all individuals and found the negative side effects come from increased platelet count as the people showing symptoms not only had increased Studies took bloodwork from all individuals and found the negative side effects come from increased platelet count as the people showing negative symptoms not only had increased hemo but also increased platelets. I went back through years of my blood work as I always had elevated hematocrit(54-56) from testosterone but my platelets were very good.

Another factor is RDW(effects oxygen). Mine was elevated years and years ago until I found out I have sleep apnea. Once I had my CPAP machine my RDW went back to nomad.

Careful with phlebotomies as well as that seems to be the method a lot of doctors say is the solution for testosterone induced erythrocytosis but any more than maybe two a year max can drastically lower your ferritin levels which is far more dangerous than elevated hemo.

Edited by John250, 22 February 2019 - 01:09 AM.


#6 GreenmachineX

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 01:28 AM

What was the reference range on the free testosterone?

Also lots of new research on how secondary induced erythrocytosis(high hemo) from testosterone does not produce the same side effects as someone who had it from SleepApnea, COPD or high altitude elevations. Studies did bloodwork from all individuals and found the negative side effects come from increased platelet count as the people showing symptoms not only had increased Studies took bloodwork from all individuals and found the negative side effects come from increased platelet count as the people showing negative symptoms not only had increased hemo but also increased platelets. I went back through years of my blood work as I always had elevated hematocrit(54-56) from testosterone but my platelets were very good.

Another factor is RDW(effects oxygen). Mine was elevated years and years ago until I found out I have sleep apnea. Once I had my CPAP machine my RDW went back to nomad.

Careful with phlebotomies as well as that seems to be the method a lot of doctors say is the solution for testosterone induced erythrocytosis but any more than maybe two a year max can drastically lower your ferritin levels which is far more dangerous than elevated hemo.


Free test range was 8-25. My RDW is normal near the lower end of the reference range. My platelets are 193, on a range of 150-379. I’ve tanked my ferritin before, and that was not pleasant.
Is your hematocrit still that high and are you still on testosterone? Where’s your total and free test sit?

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#7 John250

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 02:03 AM

Free test range was 8-25. My RDW is normal near the lower end of the reference range. My platelets are 193, on a range of 150-379. I’ve tanked my ferritin before, and that was not pleasant.
Is your hematocrit still that high and are you still on testosterone? Where’s your total and free test sit?


Yes I have been on testosterone replacement therapy for a little over 10 years now. I experimented with every single method out there in order to achieve the highest Test levels with the least aromatizing. I’ve found 20-25mg testosterone Cypionate injected shallow Intramuscular everyday with .5-.75mg Arimidex to work best. I’ve tried the same dose is one shot a week, every other day, three times a week, etc. SubQ yielded less free testosterone and aromatized more vs shallow IM(1/2” needle in low bodyfat areas ie. Bi’s,tri’s,side delts,calves,etc..)

On 20mg cyp/Ed and .25mg Arimidex 2x/wk(.5mg total)

Total T 904 range 250-1100
Free T 255 range 35-155
Estradiol 39 range <=39



On 25 cyp/Ed and .25mg Arimidex 3x/wk (.75mg total)

Total T 1203 range 250-1100
Free T 331 range 35-155
Estradiol 35 range <=39


Also DHT is 142 range 16-79





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