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CBD oil might not be safe after all

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#1 GABAergic

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:48 PM


this comes as surprise to me; https://www.nutraing...oxicity-for-CBD

it was curcumin a week ago, now CBD. i cant imagine whats next...


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#2 Oakman

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:55 PM

I wouldn't go worrying too much. Did you note the amount of CBD they were giving these poor mice? ...Up to 2.5 grams/kg by oral gavage....I'd almost call that animal abuse. CBD is typically sold (to humans) in amounts 100s of times smaller, often dissolved in 4 or 8 oz of carrier oil. Beyond that it's a pretty dear commodity. I see adverts for 30 cnt bottle of 25 mg capsules for ~$75 or 3.8 grams dissolved in carrier for ~$265. Whoa!


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#3 BasicBiO

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:37 PM

Either that or the CBD was in an oil carrier and they pummelled the mice with excessive fats which can lead to liver stress.


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#4 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:01 AM

Yep.  8 week old mice on an oral gavage of 2460 mg/kg CBD oil.  I'm not surprised in the least that they managed to do something to the poor creatures.  You might induce liver toxicity if you gave it that much canola oil. 

 

You've got to read these studies to see what they are doing before you get worked up about them.  They were looking for the level of CBD to induce liver toxicity.  In other words, they were going to raise the dose level until they induced liver toxicity.  In that situation, it's not surprising that they managed to see liver toxicity given that this was the goal of the exercise.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 May 2019 - 01:01 AM.

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#5 GABAergic

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:10 AM

personally i can only feel the effects of CBD in a gram or two. so im probably getting closer than anyone to the toxic dose IF we take in consideration the stuff can accumulate over time. also the expense is huge since they sell them quite high at just 30mg at most stores. thats why this study bothered me a bit. if anyone can feel anything from CBD at just 30mg ill be shocked. but main concern is, if someone does consume up to a gram to feel anything, wouldnt that daily over few months do cause some liver toxicity as it accumulates in you?


Edited by GABAergic, 25 May 2019 - 03:13 AM.


#6 Turnbuckle

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:49 PM

Yep.  8 week old mice on an oral gavage of 2460 mg/kg CBD oil.  I'm not surprised in the least that they managed to do something to the poor creatures.  You might induce liver toxicity if you gave it that much canola oil. 

 

You've got to read these studies to see what they are doing before you get worked up about them.  They were looking for the level of CBD to induce liver toxicity.  In other words, they were going to raise the dose level until they induced liver toxicity.  In that situation, it's not surprising that they managed to see liver toxicity given that this was the goal of the exercise.

 

 

By comparison the LD50 of table salt for mice is 3 g/kg. Scary? No.



#7 William Sterog

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 04:41 PM

Another useless, scare-promoting thread from the official troll of Longecity, Normalizing 2.0, GABAergic. Every intervention from this user is one trying to convince us that some supplement is going to kill us. Take a look to his post record. He is in every last thread talking against everything, pasting research that he don't understand or deliberately misinterpret.
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#8 GABAergic

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:44 PM

william, im trying to be informative and im posting anything that scares me personally so everyone can take a note and be careful too. how is this trolling? yes, its a bit sensationalist but i wouldnt get anyone's attention if i just keep posting positive research, we already have that all the time! wouldnt it be more of a troll move so i get more positive points to just repost old and even new studies that are always sugar coating things to the extreme instead? or be more cautious, be different, and actually try to see the dark side of the moon? 

and believe me, because i believe i will, one of those days ill be the first one to find out about some nasty negative consequences of something we all praise and take now , and ill be talked about warning people and them not listening. call me a negative nancy, troll, asshole, whatever. but im just being innovative in my approuch here and i dont like to research sweetness, but bitterness


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#9 Dorian Grey

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 07:29 AM

Curious GABA, are there ANY supps you consider safe and perhaps wise to use, even in moderation for health and/or longevity?  

 

My girlfriend sometimes shows interest in my stack, but she likes to google my supps with the word "danger" in the search, and click on the first result that pops up on her phone.  Invariably, she gets spooked by what she finds.  I research all my supps on my computer, and look at many pages of results in order to formulate a risk/reward hypothesis that pertains to my own diet & lifestyle.  

 

Risk & reward are extremely variable depending on how you look at them.  How many people are killed riding bicycles, damage their knees/back, or perhaps even drop down dead while jogging, etc.  Does this "prove" exercise is inherently unwise?  

 

Vitamin-E has been well documented to be the most common deficiency in the standard American diet.  E has also been shown helpful with fatty liver/NASH and to slow progression of Alzheimer's.  There is also a study showing those taking large doses of synthetic-E to have an increase in all cause mortality.  I take low dose, natural form E with mixed tocopherols, & feel I may get some benefit without the risk associated with synthetic E.  

 

Lecithin?  An article in Nature Magazine said they found it increased TMAO in mice which might aggravate atherosclerosis and heart disease.  Chris Masterjohn wrote an excellent rebuttal pointing out that existing studies already show that in humans, dietary seafood results in much higher urinary TMAO than phosphatidylcholine, so if lecithin is bad, then dietary seafood should be deadly; yet the Japanese diet is high in seafood, and they outlive almost everyone else on the planet.  

 

A vegan diet is supposed to be the ultimate diet for health & longevity, yet it also has serious deficiencies that have been associated with this lifestyle.  Does this mean no one should explore the possibilities of potential benefit, provided they understand and compensate for the deficiencies associated with this lifestyle?  

 

The fact that you can find a theoretical downside to about any supp, dietary protocol or even exercise, doesn't mean all supps, dietary protocols or all exercise is inherently bad.  You've got to do your homework to minimize risk and maximize rewards in all you do for health & longevity.  

 

I feel it is good to alert those on a supplement/longevity forum of possible risks to the supps, diets and exercise we may be exploring; but this said, simply digging up and posting isolated and obscure research papers that run counter to the bulk of mainstream research may be an exercise in futility.  The curcumin reply I posted on your other thread is a good example.  Literally thousands of research papers on the benefits would seem to outweigh the alarm of finding a one-off article where an adverse event occurred.  


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#10 GABAergic

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 06:53 PM

im not going to give up on things like cbd or curcumin just yet, but if i keep finding negative studies associated with them, i will keep on posting them and people can decide for themselves. as you said, dozen of positive research out there, so why should i just repost this positive research that has been posted many times over? im more interested in the future, and new interesting findings mostly things that worry me specifically because this way i can settle down this worry with others and have a discussion. hopefully a polite, civil discussion without name calling like mean angry troll etc.

you are asking if i consider any supplements safe and wise to use? im changing my mind as time goes. after using them for 15 years (tried all of them you name it) and i considered ALL of them safe and useful at one point. now im down to half. from maybe 80 herbs, vitamins and specialty items to around 30 now. Im thinking of completely quiting them. yes, money is the biggest issue with them, wouldnt you agree? second its not so much that they are dangerious (just not yet) or not giving some special benefits to people who are deficient in some vitamins, but its the fact that the market is growing exponentially, a huge multibillion dollar business, and more and more companies are getting on the money and therefore there is influx of fakes on the market. and if you see the reports regarding fakes being sold, with mostly adulterated herbs or just low levels of given ingredient even sometimes none at all or dangerous  residues from cheap chemical processes occuring in india and china, and you start to change your mind after a while with newer reports each year demonstrating issues with the business. just check the dates of reports growing in huge number in the past 5 years. by next year, we will have so many new reports showing even more products being crap. the fact that there is not a single study to this day to conclusively prove humans taking supplements live longer is still a huge bummer for me.

anyway, i can go on and on why im thinking of quiting supplements but i rather not go off topic which is a thread about CBD. honestly, 15 years of trying all supplements under the sun, i have never felt worst in my life. fuck this.


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#11 Oakman

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 08:41 PM

15 years of trying all supplements under the sun, i have never felt worst in my life. fuck this.

 

In brief, what has happened to you in 15 yrs of supplements that puts you in such a mood? You believe it was from supplements or just general aging. living, those kinds of things?



#12 Dorian Grey

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 08:47 PM

Thanks for the clarification GABA, & sorry about side-tracking the thread.  I can certainly relate to the dangers of a top-heavy stack.  My 88 year old mom has been into supps all her life, and her stack has grown to over a dozen different supps with every meal.  A bit over the top in my book, but then she has made it to 88 with no chronic illness. 

 

I've always been a firm believer in the "less is more" theory of supplementation.  Low doses of a few key supps.  I've researched my stack for a dozen or so hour per week for more than a decade, and pruned and added as I've learned.  There is inherent danger in high-dose poly-supplementation, just as the increasing polypharmacy of prescription medications is most certainly harming a lot of folks who go this route.  

 

Best of Luck as you go back to nature and depend on diet for all your nutritional needs.  

 

 



#13 GABAergic

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 02:21 AM

In brief, what has happened to you in 15 yrs of supplements that puts you in such a mood? You believe it was from supplements or just general aging. living, those kinds of things?

 

i wish i knew exactly then ill focus on avoiding this issue exactly. i have had liver issues for years. jaundice and some live damage. i have been using curcumin a lot before and currently cbd and thats major reason i put those two articles about them affecting the liver. but it could be many other supplements and also genetical and aging too.  but to be honest, the less i have taken the better i felt. its just hard to quit them all at once for some weird reason. i might have addictive behavior when it comes to it i assume? anyway, ill continue to focus on any negative study regarding supplements, especially ones i have taken or still do. and you guys can discuss if you want or not, but dont call me a troll for it, thanks :)


Edited by GABAergic, 27 May 2019 - 02:25 AM.


#14 Oakman

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 03:22 AM

i wish i knew exactly then ill focus on avoiding this issue exactly. i have had liver issues for years. jaundice and some live damage. i have been using curcumin a lot before and currently cbd and thats major reason i put those two articles about them affecting the liver. but it could be many other supplements and also genetical and aging too.  but to be honest, the less i have taken the better i felt. its just hard to quit them all at once for some weird reason. i might have addictive behavior when it comes to it i assume? anyway, ill continue to focus on any negative study regarding supplements, especially ones i have taken or still do. and you guys can discuss if you want or not, but dont call me a troll for it, thanks :)

 

At least that makes sense, if you have liver issues, and as supps go thru the liver, you're likely going to have reaction to them that others will not. I can understand why you are suspicious of their safety when you use them. Probably why you get reaction from others, is that they metabolize supps normally and they don't cause significant difficulties, and people wonder what you're talking about. Regardless, a doubting Thomas keeps everybody honest and challenges people to realize the risks inherently possible, even if the chances are slim to none that they may experience them themselves. 


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#15 GABAergic

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 03:47 AM

yes, exactly. thanks for understanding. except its not that i ever had issues with my liver before i began supplements. it was many years after ive used them. therefore why im always cautious with their use now and im so "negative" as people put it. even if there is one bad batch and its not all of them and we are not all sick of them right away, there is always the risk we take with things manufactured processed somewhere out there in the unknown. who knows what batch we are getting tomorrow.

dorian grey was using some examples of how everything can be a risk and can cause us health problems like simple bicycling. but a lot of things we can actually try to limit or avoid IF we know the benefit is not great enough. for example, curcumin is not going to cure me from anything or get me anywhere. bicycling, riding the bus or plane is not going to benefit me because its tedious and dangerous but its a REQUIREMENT to get somewhere and do something productive and to move and get things done. curcumin isnt required to get and do to get anywhere at all.  show me one fact curcumin will absolutely definitely get me somewhere in the future! so i suppose ill read the next sponsored study to buy the next latest (hopefully safe batch) and have faith it will get me anywhere in the future. well, its kind of enticing. IF YOU ARE INTO RUSSIAN ROULETTE.

oh yes, most importantly, all the examples you use are related to you being in control of situations and activities. supplements are not in your control because you dont go out and isolate and process them in a big corporation and then test and try them yourself. you are just a guinea pig.


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#16 Dorian Grey

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 05:31 AM

"i have had liver issues for years"...  Have you looked into the "Iron Hypothesis" of liver disease?  "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" (Sherlock Holmes) 

 

The liver is the bodies primary storage site for excess iron, & iron is the ultimate pro-oxidant!  Fenton chemistry via the "labile iron pool" and resulting Hydroxyl Radicals can wreak havoc in livers overloaded with iron.  The baby-boom generation is the first in human history to live their entire lives eating iron fortified foods.  Iron fortification of food began in the 1940s and was greatly increased in the 1970s.  Males tend to accumulate iron throughout their lives, and it is all stored in the liver.  

 

The ferritin storage protein is actually pretty good at protecting against leakage and oxidative stress.  Problem is, over time ferritin degrades to hemosiderin, which tends to be a bit more leaky, creating a "labile iron pool" of toxic waste.  Transferrin Saturation (aka TSAT or Iron Saturation) and Ferritin are the best makers of iron overload.  Ideally, you want to see TSAT in the middle third of its normal range.  When it comes to ferritin, the lower third (below 100) is best for optimal liver health.  The Iron Disorders Institute opines: 

 

http://www.irondisor...org/iron-tests/

 

Scroll half way down the page to "Serum Ferritin (SF)" and look at the forth and fifth paragraphs:

"Serum ferritin measurements range from about 15–200 ng/ml for women and 20–300 ng/ml for men. Although laboratory ranges vary, most are close to these values. Approximately 95% of the population will fall within “normal” population range simply because ranges are calculated using standard statistical methodology. 

Except for the lower ends of these ranges, which can predict anemia or iron deficiency anemia, the ranges per se do not define optimal or even healthy iron levels. Optimal SF ranges for men and women are 25 – 75 ng/ml. Individuals with risk factors for diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, stoke, liver diseases and cancer face amplified risks proportional to the amount of stored body iron over and above the optimal range.

 

-------------------

 

Whole blood donation (the iron is in the red cells) will reduce iron loading quickly and effectively, and you don't even need any medication (or supplements!).  Ferritin lowered out of triple digits = Happy Liver!  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 27 May 2019 - 05:59 AM.

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#17 GABAergic

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:41 PM

dorian, it was after the fact of liver injury that my iron jumped to tripple digits. also my cholesterol too. it wasnt the fact that iron was the cause of the liver going sour but the way my doc explained it, if the liver isnt working properly it somehow is handicap in clearing out excess iron and there is a buildup which further causes more problems down the line. same with cholesterol if you know this, bad working liver will cause major rise in bad cholesterol independent of your diet. in fact, i wasnt even eating anything at all when my iron and cholesterol went sky high. anyway, you know how i fixed the issue? no supplements of any type, no alcohol or any food in fact, but patience and lots of blood donation! major factor in fixing your cholesterol and iron is to donate blood! anyway, just by donating blood you wont fix your liver, but it will help get that excess iron out and over time if you are lucky you will get back to normal.

so yes, you are right, but iron itself wasnt the cause of the liver injury. to this day i cannot be sure what it is. anyway, im always weary of using too many supplements now.


Edited by GABAergic, 27 May 2019 - 07:42 PM.


#18 Dorian Grey

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:10 PM

Glad you discovered the jump in iron and took the steps to correct it.  Many doctors don't even test males for iron, and fail to treat or recommend blood donation when they see elevated numbers.  Something about doctors and bloodletting that's now taboo.  

 

Hopefully, this will reduce inflammation and halt any progression of disease.  

 

Best of Luck as you work your way back to better health!  



#19 brosci

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 03:04 AM

Ah, this is annoying. I was thinking about adding CBD to my polyphenol stack, but was already slightly concerned about liver health in the context of taking curcumin and other supplements.


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#20 Dorian Grey

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 04:08 PM

All things in moderation, and to thine own self be true. 

 

Just be sure you're not consuming large amounts of polyphenols with every meal.  They bind dietary thiamine to an unusable form and if you're not getting at least one good thiamine meal per day without polyphenols, thiamine can become problematic.  

 

I used to have tea, coffee or red wine with every meal.  Also took some polyphenol supps with every meal.  Was having some weird symptoms (orthostatic hypotension / POTS / rapid pulse, anosmia etc) that resolved with a thiamine supplement (taken away from polyphenol consumption!).  I also typically have a few beers every evening, which may have contributed to this problem (low thiamine).  

 

Sub-clinical thiamine deficiency is very insidious and puzzling.  Took me forever to figure out what was going on.  


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#21 GABAergic

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 07:14 PM

i made a thread about thiamine; https://www.longecit...e-lipothiamine/

very underrated vitamin. but its contribution to cancer is still puzzling. maybe there is association with polyphenols lowering thiamine therefore cancer risk? very interesting to understand this but i doubt this forum cares for this much to try to figure out and discuss







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