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benfotiamine, anyone taking it? what about allithiamine & lipothiamine??

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#1 GABAergic

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 09:02 PM


i wonder if anyone is taking benfotiamine for its anti glycation end product benefits. i want to know of its effect reports, side effect profile and how you feel long term using it. if anyone still uses that is. it seems to have fallen out of favor.

and what about benfotiamine vs lipothiamine vs allithiamine? the other two were made by the japanese for their fat solubility and stability. it seems benfotiamine does the same. is there much of a difference??



#2 brosci

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 05:28 AM

I'm intrigued by the supplement but weary of use. There's a bit of a theoretical increase in cancer risk. I'd be curious about using it once or twice a week with a fat-rich (or carb-rich?) meal. Sulbutiamine is another form that might possess additional brain-related benefits. I've also seen sublingual TPP.


Edited by brosci, 14 March 2019 - 05:28 AM.


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#3 GABAergic

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:02 PM

I'm intrigued by the supplement but weary of use. There's a bit of a theoretical increase in cancer risk. I'd be curious about using it once or twice a week with a fat-rich (or carb-rich?) meal. Sulbutiamine is another form that might possess additional brain-related benefits. I've also seen sublingual TPP.

 

yeah i was going to ask about this cancer risk. from what i found, it seems to be speculations going all the way back 10 years ago. there is nothing new that shows any cancer risk association. im wondering if that was just some unfounded worry that started long time ago and it was never proven by science. but i cant find anything to prove or disprove this 10 years later :/



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#4 brosci

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 08:55 PM

This article popped up:

http://www.bioscirep...8/1/BSR20171148

There is a lot of premises suggesting connection of thiamine metabolism with carcinogenesis. However, the relationship between vitamin B1 and initiation as well as development of cancer still remains unknown. Some authors postulate that thiamine increases cancer cell’s viability and survival and it is involved in increase in cancer cell’s resistance to therapy [27]. Other data indicate that reduced thiamine level increases risk of some kinds of cancer development [28]. On the other hand, there are evidence that thiamine can protect from tumors of central nervous system [29]. The effect of thiamine supplementation on cancer cell depends on thiamine dose—low doses stimulate whereas high doses inhibit cancer cell growth.

It sounds like very high doses (borderline toxic / not safe?) can decrease cancer growth, whereas typical supplemental doses increase initiation, development, viability, and survival of cancer cells. I'm not sure if the benefits would outweigh these risks, since it's not a very clear benefit to taking B1 (borderline placebo at best?)  You could probably reduce glycation by keeping your blood sugar / pufa-index low.

 

That said, while eating a low carb diet, I do see my B1 trends on the lower side and benfotiamine seems like a solid way to boost it. I'm on the fence until smarter individuals chime in on the potential issue.


Edited by brosci, 15 March 2019 - 08:58 PM.


#5 Phoebus

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:06 PM

almsot certain I read somewhere that benfotiamine reduces to the water soluble form of B1 in the stomach and therefore is no different than taking any thiamine supplment 

 

I take allithiamine and am a big believer in it. Since its fat soluble I take it with yogurt or some type of fat. 



#6 GABAergic

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 01:48 AM

phoebus i read lipothiamine is enhanced better version of allithiamine. japanese made allithiamine in the 50s then in the 60s from it made lipothiamine. i wonder how much of a difference there is. im curious to try it



#7 Woody42

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 03:08 PM

I am very interested in B1 for several reasons. I am a type 2 diabetic and it's been found that about 75% of type 2

diabetics are low in B1.   I also stutter and like perhaps almost everyone who stutters I have stuttered all my life. 

Way back in 1972 I read that some people who stuttered  benefited from extra B1  so I tried some. But back then

the go to form of B1 was thiamine HCL  and as luck would have it I had an odd reaction to this one form of B1. It 

in a dose related manor made me stutter more, get hungry and get depressed. And back then thiamin hcl was in

almost all vitamin pills and bread products. If I avoided any intake of thiamin hcl about 90% of my stuttering vanished.

When slowly starting in 1980 thiamin HCL was replaced in most vitamins and breads with thiamin mononitrate. 

Oh that made life so much easier for me.  Then about 4 years ago I read another article on stuttering saying B1 

helped about 30% of people who stutter. I started taking about 100mg of thiamin mononitrate several time a day 

and most of my stuttering stopped as long as I avoided things that had a high tannin content as tannin flushes a lot

of vitamin b1 from your body.  But suppose I know I may need to talk before a large group then I will take 200 mg

of the more expensive sulbutiamine . and for a couple of hrs I am 100% stutter free.     

 

 



#8 GABAergic

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:52 PM

i ordered sulbutiamine from nootropics depot and i must say its like baby powder or some crap. it has zero effect on me and i fill up like 3-4 big capsules too. im getting really cautious with nootropics depot since their uridine powder was also crap. i wish i can get real pure sulbutiamine as pill form from europe, but nobody sells it anymore :/



#9 pamojja

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 06:21 PM

 i wish i can get real pure sulbutiamine as pill form from europe, but nobody sells it anymore :/

 

Don't know about its quality, but it's sold as capsules here: https://www.supersma...ne-200-mg--0695


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#10 Phoebus

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 08:22 PM

sulbutiamine made me wicked sick to my stomach, almost instantly. No idea why. 


phoebus i read lipothiamine is enhanced better version of allithiamine. japanese made allithiamine in the 50s then in the 60s from it made lipothiamine. i wonder how much of a difference there is. im curious to try it

 

yes, after I run out of allithiamine this time I will try the lipothiamine both of which are sold by the same company on amazon. 



#11 GABAergic

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:38 AM

phoebus, dont you think those might be outdated thiamine versions though. considering now we have benfotiamine which is the newest fat soluble thiamine on the market with dozen of research. those two were made way back and research has stopped for a decade. im just contemplating if not just go straight for the benfo version...

anyway, i already ordered lipothiamine. we will see how it goes



#12 brosci

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:08 AM

I came across this article as well (although, it's old):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9568183

 

The thiamine dependent TK pathway is the central avenue which supplies ribose phosphate for nucleic acids in tumors and excessive thiamine supplementation maybe responsible for failed therapeutic attempts to terminate cancer cell proliferation.

 

I wonder if something like 150mg once a week of fat-soluble B1 would be a safe way to keep levels up without having a chronic elevated saturation.


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#13 GABAergic

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 06:08 PM

im pretty sure more serious conditions are associated with low thiamine versus taking too much and having some probability of cancer. isnt it better to take enough to be on the normal level than to be low on thiamine long term? i would think, just normalize the levels, dont go overboard and you will be fine. maybe its the long term excess causing the problems just like any other vitamin might do i suppose



#14 brosci

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 06:50 PM

im pretty sure more serious conditions are associated with low thiamine versus taking too much and having some probability of cancer. isnt it better to take enough to be on the normal level than to be low on thiamine long term? i would think, just normalize the levels, dont go overboard and you will be fine. maybe its the long term excess causing the problems just like any other vitamin might do i suppose

 

That makes sense to me, although I would argue that eating a normal diet rich in plants / seafood / meat / eggs would be unlikely to produce a state of low-thiamine (which according to the research, was actually associated with some reduced cancer risk.) And it seems like the best way that you could push this on the high side would be with through a pharmaceutical-strength form of B1 at doses unreachable through even the thiamine-richest diets.

 

Another thought that comes to mind -- maybe something like glucosamine would be a smart way to hedge your bet. I've read that glucosamine reduces cancer risk because it competes for glucose uptake -- it's like a low-carb diet mimetic. If B1 is increasing cancer risk through an upregulation of glucose utilization, this might put the brakes in a useful path.


Edited by brosci, 17 March 2019 - 06:52 PM.


#15 GABAergic

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 01:53 AM

from this read; https://examine.com/...tamin-b-cancer/ it seems b6 and b12 might increase risk for smokers. no definitive conclusion on others



#16 brosci

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 05:17 PM

How does TPP compare to benfotiamine & other fat-soluble B1 supplements? I found one supplement with 150mg benfotiamine + 10mg TPP.



#17 brosci

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Posted 19 March 2019 - 06:00 AM

Doing a bit more digging, this popped up:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4178204/

 

Linking vitamin B1 with cancer cell metabolism: Vitamin supplementation products are easily accessible and patients often perceive them as safe and beneficial without full knowledge of their effects. It has been hypothesized that a Western diet, characterized in part by excess thiamine supplementation, may be a factor for increased cancer incidence compared to other countries. Thiamine is commonly supplemented in processed foods and readily consumed in over-the-counter vitamin and nutritional supplements in Western countries with generally high cancer incidences. In contrast, Asian and African countries principally consume food that is high in thiaminase, a natural thiamine-degrading enzyme, which may reduce thiamine exposure. In post-surgical or autopsy tissues, a 2.5-fold increase in thiamine levels was found in colon adenocarcinomas relative to un-invaded control tissue. Overall these studies strongly suggest a preferential accumulation of thiamine into cancer cells. Self-supplementation vitamin preparations containing levels of thiamine greater than the RDI are readily accessible and considered to be safe and harmless for patients (Table 1). Although the use of thiamine to treat deficiency-related symptoms attributed to the disease or therapy is warranted, this is currently done with limited comprehension of the role thiamine may contribute towards malignant progression. In light of our knowledge regarding alterations of thiamine homeostasis in cancer, the impact of thiamine supplementation on cancer growth has received minimal research attention. In 2001, Comin-Anduix et al. evaluated the effect of increasing thiamine supplementation in multiples of the RDI on an Ehrlich ascites tumor-mouse model [58]. Their findings indicated a statistically significant stimulatory effect of thiamine supplementation on tumor growth compared to non-supplemented controls. Moderate doses of 12.5 to 37.5 times the RDI had the greatest stimulatory effect, peaking at approximately 250% greater tumor cell proliferation with 25 times the RDI.

 

The RDI for B1 is ~1.2mg/d, so apparently my once or twice a week x 150mg plan is considered to offer the greatest stimulatory effect toward cancer cell growth when I average it out over the week. Hmmm. I was about ready to order some B1, for the supposed anti-aging / brain health benefits... but I'm having a hard time judging the true risk / reward ratio for myself. Perhaps <10mg/d would be more a more sensible dosing schedule?


Edited by brosci, 19 March 2019 - 06:40 AM.

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#18 brosci

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Posted 19 March 2019 - 04:13 PM

Rereading that article, it mentions:

 

Interestingly, at values above 75 times the RDI, no change was found in tumor cell proliferation, and a slight decrease was found at 2,500 times the RDI.

 

Perhaps the 300mg+ form of fat-soluble B1 is the way to go to get to the other end of the dosing spectrum (I hear it's synergistic with lipoic acid?)



#19 GABAergic

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 06:34 PM

i got the doctor's best 150 benfotiamine but it also contains very high dose of alpha lipoic acid at 300 mg. thats enough to lower my blood sugar into dizzyness. i was taking it for few days now and my blood sugar goes so low (i suspect the addition of benfotiamine adds to it) that i cannot really function without craving sugar. im a person who doesnt like sugary drinks or foods and i rarely eat them but since starting this supplement, if i dont have something sweet, i feel like im going to pass out.

anyway, doctor's best has some good formulas out there but this one is just overkill. you cannot put so much of blood sugar lowering compounds and expect most people to take them daily. im sure it will benefit the diabetics a lot though. overall, if you are not diabetic, stay the hell away from this formula!



#20 Woody42

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 07:10 PM

That's odd I am a type 2 diabetic and have taken 240 mg several times a day for a few days

and didn't notice any change in my blood sugar.



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#21 GABAergic

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 01:48 AM

was it the doctor's best formula with the ALA 300mg? maybe its because i generally have low blood sugar and its effects me quite easy. also red wine the day after i have had a bottle lowers my blood sugar to the point of passing out. but thats just me


Edited by GABAergic, 25 March 2019 - 01:49 AM.






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